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So I was wondering. With the new going to ground rule if Black Templars that go to ground still get Rightous Zeal. This would essentially make a big cursader squad very hard to kill because if you get into any terrain know it provides a 4+ save but if you go to ground it gives you +1 to that save giveing you a 3+ save for and Neophytes and Initiates. The drawback is that you can do nothing until then end of your next turn. Well, will BT just get up and run forward and then act normal or will they be stuck.

In the rules it say you can however take casuallty and fallback and then in the next turn act normal if you regroup. So with the BT this would also be true because they do the same except they run at the enemy. So what do you think.

I think they should get to use their Righteous Zeal.
The rules are the BTs little private spin on the Fall Back rules. It is stated that the Fall Back rules are still in effect, thus BTs spin on them should also be.


On a related note. How many of you run into BT players that use the Righteous Zeal to its full effect? Meaning that they move 0" if it is more tactically sound.

@corwindal5:

I don't understand your question. Please explain.


@Steelmage99

On a related note. How many of you run into BT players that use the Righteous Zeal to its full effect? Meaning that they move 0" if it is more tactically sound.

I do it. A lot.

Going up against a Nightbringer with Crusader Squads will be the last mistake you make in that game.

CK

Basically if a Black Templar Crusader Squad goes to ground can they then use there rightous zeal to get up and move forward and then be able to move as normal in there next turn.

So basically, shoot BTs with something nasty so they go to ground, then stop shooting them.

If you don't force a morale test, they won't be able to righteous zeal.



Or this may be one of those things made an exception for in the new edition. A little caveat like "no they can't because we say so" or perhaps "Black Templars cannot go to ground - that is far too cowardly."

I'd love to see that

I'd play that as a no. If you choose to go to ground, then you are hiding, taking advantage of cover, and gaining the +1 coversave, but forfeiting your next movement. You can't be hiding behind a rock, and advancing quickly towards the enemy at the same time.

@ mikhaila

The point is that anybody going to ground can still fall back.

How do BTs fall back?

They use Righteous Zeal. They are indeed still forfeiting they movement in the Movement Phase. They just fall back in a funny way.

Steelmage99 wrote:@ mikhaila

The point is that anybody going to ground can still fall back.

How do BTs fall back?

They use Righteous Zeal. They are indeed still forfeiting they movement in the Movement Phase. They just fall back in a funny way.

That's not exactly true. Black Templars who fail a morale check still fall back. If they pass the check they get their 'funny' move.


Anyway, we will have to wait for the FAQ to figure this out. There is a whole lot in the Black Templar codex that doesn't make much sense with the 5th edition rules right now.

Thats true, Yakface.
Obviously not as clear as I first thought.

Based on what we have now, no, they cannot use RZ to move forward if they choose to go to ground.

BTs can still be pinned, and if they're pinned there is no Morale Test for them to pass, no passing a Morale test (due to not taking one) equals no RZ. GTG is basically just another version of being pinned and if you GTG you take no Morale test. No Morale test, no passing it and therefor no RZ.

Here's the rule word for word.

GOING TO GROUND

If warriors come under heavy fire, they may decide

to keep their heads down and stay alive a little

longer while they wait for reinforcements.

After the enemy has rolled to hit and wound

against any of your units, but before you take any

saves or remove any models, you can declare that

the unit is going to ground. To represent this,

place a suitable marker next to the unit (you may

alternatively want to lay the models down).

Models in a unit that has gone to ground

immediately receive +1 to their cover saving

throws. Units that are not currently in a position

that would give them a cover save can still go to

ground by diving to the floor (or some other

evasion technique) and receive a 6+ cover save.

The drawback of going to ground is that the unit

can do nothing until the end of its following turn.

At the end of its following turn the unit returns to

normal, the marker is removed and the unit is free

to act as normal from then on.

Whilst it has gone to ground the unit may do

nothing of its own volition, but will react normally

if affected by enemy actions (for example, it will

take Morale tests as normal). If the unit has to fall

back, it will return to normal immediately. If

assaulted, the unit will fight as usual, but gains no

advantage for being in cover because they are not

set to receive the enemy charge.


The rule does not say that they are pinned. Just that they cannot do anything of there on violatoin except take a morale test. If a BT unit passes that test then it HAS to consolidate toward the closest enemy unit. This is a drawback sometimes and sometime it is an advantage.

The coolest thing about this is you do not have to decide to go to ground until after someone shots you. This makes for a whole new ballgame as far as I am concerned.

They'll still get their RZ move, they just won't be able to follow up in their turn by moving, shooting/running, and assaulting.

I tend to agree with what's being said here and on the Dakka Discussion Forums: It makes a lot of sense fluff-wise to say that Templars cannot Go to Ground.

Does anyone know when the BT FAQ is released?

CK

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:They'll still get their RZ move, they just won't be able to follow up in their turn by moving, shooting/running, and assaulting.

I tend to agree with what's being said here and on the Dakka Discussion Forums: It makes a lot of sense fluff-wise to say that Templars cannot Go to Ground.

Does anyone know when the BT FAQ is released?

CK

Supposedly, when they release the 5th edition rulebook they will release new FAQs for all the existing codices to clear up the inconsistencies brought about by the new rules.

I really hope they resolve the BT issues.

Capt K

hang on does this mean that pathfinders out in the open can just go i'm scared stick their heads between their legs and gain a 4+ covers save or 3+ if theres a razor wire in the way, 2+ from a bush ?
i can see this making last turn a pain as pathfinder run 6+" on last turn to cap an objective and then hide (in plain sight)

Upon further review (and awaiting any FAQ that modifies things), my previous statement is wrong. It appears that BT can indeed use RZ to avoid the negative effects of GtG. Kill one Bt in a 20-man squad and they have to take a Morale test. If they pass, they jump up and move d6 inches towards the closest enemy. If they fail, they break and run. Either way, they negate the similar-to-pinning effects of GtG.

don_mondo wrote:Upon further review (and awaiting any FAQ that modifies things), my previous statement is wrong. It appears that BT can indeed use RZ to avoid the negative effects of GtG. Kill one Bt in a 20-man squad and they have to take a Morale test. If they pass, they jump up and move d6 inches towards the closest enemy. If they fail, they break and run. Either way, they negate the similar-to-pinning effects of GtG.

The FAQs are out and there's no mention of a change to this in the 5th edition FAQs so it appears Templars have just become the champions of 'speed push-ups':

"Okay brothers, here comes some fire from the enemy. Are you ready to jazzecise? Alright then! And up and down and up and down and up and down and up and down. . ."



Edit: Actually, looking at the wording of the going to ground rule the only thing it specifies that returns the unit to normal is falling back. The Righteous Zeal move is not falling back so here's how I read the rule as working in 5th edition.

If a BT unit goes to ground and suffers a casualty it takes a morale check.

If it passes the morale check it does nothing (because it has gone to ground).

If it fails the morale check it falls back (which is specified as something that ignores the 'going to ground' status).

OK Yak, just because I changed my mind to agree with you, now you're going to change yours.....???? Grrrrrrr.......... (smiley, I need a smiley here!!)

I don't know the wording for Zeal, but the GtG rule wording is not specific to just falling back.

Whilst it has gone to ground the unit may do nothing of its own volition, but will react normally if affected by enemy actions (for example, it will take Morale tests as normal).

Couldn't the zeal move forward be counted as reacting to enemy actions regardless of whether it is a fall back move or not?

I suppose it hinges on whether moving the d6" is considered to be by their own volition (since it isn't compulsory right? they can choose to move 0"?)

If the unit has to fall back, it will return to normal immediately. If assaulted, the unit will fight as usual, but gains no advantage for being in cover because they are not set to receive the enemy charge (see page 36).

Zeal move forward is not a fall back move (isn't it considered a consolidation move?) So I can't see them as being able to use the zeal move forward as a way to return to normal. Could be wrong though as I don't have easy access to the BT book (and it hinges on what type of move the Zeal is).

I'm thinking right now that perhaps the BT can move forward using zeal (like say if they have move, just not the full amount or something) but would still be under the negative effects of GtG.

RZ - "must move towards the nearest visible enemy unit." must move. So IMO no 0" consolidate.
Hmmm, note that it uses the 4th ed Massacre result as the basis for determining how far to move, so I guess they can't move at all since that no longer exists... (joking!!)
I think the key bit is the "will react normally" phrase you cited.

I think the key bit is the "will react normally" phrase you cited.

I think we are on the same page then, although dunno if you are thinking 'react normally' would let them be exempt from GtG drawbacks.

I can definitely agree that they would make the RZ move but they most definitely don't have the green light from the RAW to voluntarily move in their next turn.

They'd get this 'bonus move' for Righteous Zeal but then they'd continue to be bound by the going to ground rules.

yakface wrote:
I can definitely agree that they would make the RZ move but they most definitely don't have the green light from the RAW to voluntarily move in their next turn.

They'd get this 'bonus move' for Righteous Zeal but then they'd continue to be bound by the going to ground rules.

That was my interpretation of the rule.

Except that in the example they give for falling back, it says that the unit "will return to normal immediately". IMO, the fallback example is just that, an example stating how a unit will react to enemy fire. So wouldn't the return to normal apply to ALL instances of a unit reacting to enemy fire?

Fethin' double post......

sorry.

don_mondo wrote:Except that in the example they give for falling back, it says that the unit "will return to normal immediately". IMO, the fallback example is just that, an example stating how a unit will react to enemy fire. So wouldn't the return to normal apply to ALL instances of a unit reacting to enemy fire?

... but will react normally if affected by enemy actions (for example, it will take Morale tests as normal).

Morale test is a example here but...

If the unit has to fall back, it will return to normal immediately.

falling back is not an example in this sentance, its a condition. so no, they will only return to normal when falling back.

According to RAW, there is nothing saying they lose their RZ move, but the Rulebook still says they can't do anything next turn... RZ or not.

So GtG all you want, you won't be able to do a thing next turn.

Zeal move forward is not a fall back move (isn't it considered a consolidation move?) So I can't see them as being able to use the zeal move forward as a way to return to normal. Could be wrong though as I don't have easy access to the BT book (and it hinges on what type of move the Zeal is).

I'm thinking right now that perhaps the BT can move forward using zeal (like say if they have move, just not the full amount or something) but would still be under the negative effects of GtG.

Yet another can of worms... Zeal is a consolidation move so therefore can not be used to make an assault, per 5th. So its; up, down, run stop..

However the Preferred Enemy is pretty beast now, as always re-rolling to hit in my book is much better than hitting on 3's.

But wait there's more... Crusaders can run forward and fire the asst cannon hitting on 3's per the machine spirit DH Faq, and fire the hurricanes etc. Then when the marine dex drops they can even split fire.. Crusader FTW!

I still think templars are good, maybe better than Blood Angels. With the availability of plastics in mass for them, they are my next army for sure.

Yeah, but the DH Assault Cannon is only Heavy 3, non-rending. So it isn't quite as devastating.

Yakface said:
They'd get this 'bonus move' for Righteous Zeal but then they'd continue to be bound by the going to ground rules.

Agreed. I guess when they hit the deck and some of their comrades die, instead of stupidly standing up and charging into a hail of fire, they continue to crawl forward in the prone position.

Righteous Crawl, anyone?

CK