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It is commonly said that Cult Chaos marines are better than ordinary Chaos Space marines. I have found that the problem with my Cult Marines; whether my Plague Marine variant, or my Thousand Sons/Sonic Blaster variant, is that the armies are very small. A Noise Marine with a Sonic Blaster is 28 points! The Thousand Sons have an aspiring sorcerer who will run you 60 points or more once you give him a spell to cast. He could cost the same as a whole squad of ordinary marines. His spells are mostly short range, is that worth it?

The benefits of the Cult Marines are also not as valuable as they seem at first. For example, the Plague Marines get the delightful Blight Grenades reducing enemy attacks on the charge, but, are only Initiative 3, and will almost always strike second! Toughness 5 with Feel No pain sounds terrific. But it doesn't count against Las/Plas, or missile launchers or plasma cannons, all of which are either 2x toughness or no armor save allowed and in 5th edition will automatically score on partials. So, Feel No Pain saves you from Bolter and Las gun fire. Is this worth the points??

Thousand Sons get an invulnerable save, ok. But, you've lost your Bolt Pistols for hand to hand, and if you were parked in cover you'd have a 4+_ cover save for free.

Noise Marines have great weapons, but the increased initiative is a hand to hand skill, not a shooting skill.

The big knock against ordinary Chaos Space Marines is that they take leadership tests. Fair enough. But, they have bolt pistols for a +1 attack in hand to hand for the same price as Loyalist Marines.

I wonder whether you might be better off running larger squads of ordinary Chaos Space Marines with Icons for a specific desired effect rather than going for smaller numbers of more expensive Cult Troops who are not quite all they are cut out to be??

Not that I expect Chaos armies to be winning any Grand Tournaments soon....

Mike Guth

mikeguth wrote:It is commonly said that Cult Chaos marines are better than ordinary Chaos Space marines. I have found that the problem with my Cult Marines; whether my Plague Marine variant, or my Thousand Sons/Sonic Blaster variant, is that the armies are very small. A Noise Marine with a Sonic Blaster is 28 points! The Thousand Sons have an aspiring sorcerer who will run you 60 points or more once you give him a spell to cast. He could cost the same as a whole squad of ordinary marines. His spells are mostly short range, is that worth it?

Two things, you keep saying variant. And your numbers are wrong. Are you playing the game with a different rules set because that's what this post is making it sound like. Yes Cult troops are better than the basic troops. A noise marine with a sonic blaster is 25 points. Thousand Sons are shooty, the sorc's power is usually a shooting one to make them even more deadly.

mikeguth wrote:The benefits of the Cult Marines are also not as valuable as they seem at first. For example, the Plague Marines get the delightful Blight Grenades reducing enemy attacks on the charge, but, are only Initiative 3, and will almost always strike second! Toughness 5 with Feel No pain sounds terrific. But it doesn't count against Las/Plas, or missile launchers or plasma cannons, all of which are either 2x toughness or no armor save allowed and in 5th edition will automatically score on partials. So, Feel No Pain saves you from Bolter and Las gun fire. Is this worth the points??

Plague Marines are I 4. I don't know why things don't count now either. They will have cover in most situations, given 5th, anyway. There are no automatic scores and no more partials. 'Partials' are just hits and nothing happens automatically. Yes it is worth the points T 5 with a 3+ save, usually a cover save, and feel no pain is good. Blight grenades are icing on the cake.

mikeguth wrote:Thousand Sons get an invulnerable save, ok. But, you've lost your Bolt Pistols for hand to hand, and if you were parked in cover you'd have a 4+_ cover save for free.

Noise Marines have great weapons, but the increased initiative is a hand to hand skill, not a shooting skill.

Both of those units are shooty. The Tsons shouldn't be getting in HtH and the Noise Marines survive it better when they get into HtH by striking first.

mikeguth wrote:The big knock against ordinary Chaos Space Marines is that they take leadership tests. Fair enough. But, they have bolt pistols for a +1 attack in hand to hand for the same price as Loyalist Marines.

I wonder whether you might be better off running larger squads of ordinary Chaos Space Marines with Icons for a specific desired effect rather than going for smaller numbers of more expensive Cult Troops who are not quite all they are cut out to be??

Not that I expect Chaos armies to be winning any Grand Tournaments soon....

Mike Guth

You can play basic CSM. No one is stopping you. It's just not a good idea and the icons aren't worth it every time. The icons simply don't add up to a cult troop. They don't turn basic CSM into Zerkers or Plague marines. The bonuses they convey are at times pretty minimal. All the cultists have +1 attack from a hth weapon and pistol except Tsons. I expect orcs to win.

Fearless and scoring to the last man are worth a ton.

T5 and FNP will make your troops needing anti tank to die and the blightgrenades are good from time to time. Not to mention they can get 2 specials for sub 10 units.
SNP gives your 1ksons effective ranges of 24, same with sonic weaponry. And the biggest thing is that CSM with a icon in it costs almost as much without getting half the benefits.

Couple things

-Plague Marines are I3. They used to be I4 in 3.5 dex. No longer. Still, doesn't change the fact that blight grenades are wonderfull. Combined with T5 and FNP, means PMs are great at rapidfiring into a unit and then taking a charge.

-Fearless ain't bad on a unit that can hold its own in close combat, like say bezerkers. However an expensive fearless unit that is weak in close combat, like Tsons, will be taking extra saves fairly often and end up stuck. CSM could be getting outta the combat and firing up the opponent.

-I'd say a rerollable ld10 is better then Fearless. Much better. Problem is it is tied to the Icon which is vulnerable to wound allocation. But it is something the basic CSM has that the other guys don't.

-The CSM god icons are ok on larger squads, where they cost per model is reasonable and the chance of losing it is lower. In fact I'd say 5ed is a bit better for this (no more range/los sniping). However the squad is still vulnerable to morale and with no fearless and no reroll, that an awefull lot of points to lose via 25% shooting casualties or sweeping advance.

-The only thing CSM really have going for them over cults is long range weaponry. None of the other cults really have it (blastmaster is a bit of a joke). Too bad it takes 10 men to actually take the heavy weapon.

-In general, any thing you try and tool the CSM to do, a cult squad can do more efficiently (short range shooty, anti-horde duty, objective capping) or neither do well (long range shooty). That isn't to say it is autolose if you use them. I know some competitive players tuning lists for GT use with basic CSMs and I think they'll do pretty well.

I'm finding difficult to make an effective PM list without including CSMs either as havocs or as my second troop choice. The numbers just aren't there.

winterman wrote:
-The only thing CSM really have going for them over cults is long range weaponry. None of the other cults really have it (blastmaster is a bit of a joke). Too bad it takes 10 men to actually take the heavy weapon.

I disagree about the blastmaster. Used with Lash, a blastmaster is pretty hard to beat in terms of a heavy weapon, especially since you are able to take one in a fearless 5-man squad, utilizing its range to avoid massed incoming fire. The key to blastmasters is not to mix them in squads with sonic blasters. Sonics want to be able to reposition and fire, blastmasters, while they have an assault setting, want to stand still and earn their cost back. A unit of 5 noise marines w/ blastmaster has done quite well for me, especially considering the ruling that you can use Lash to clump up opponents and really take advantage of that AP3 template.

im a big fan of the cult troops especialy the plauge marines but csm have their place. i think you can do rather well with csm, their not as focused as the cults and more flexible. but in the hands of a good player who utilizes the cult marines for specific purposes they are definatly better. im currently revamping all my old csm into an all undivided army so wene i playtest ill get back to you, not sure if its going to be any good or not.

CSM are fine imo. I have more of them than cult marines in my army, but I'm running a themed undivided list so meh. They are the only troops who can take heavy weapons apart from the blastmaster, which can be a better option than havocs if you want to fill heavy support with vehicles. Remember, they are much better than loyalist marines in CC thanks to their additional attacks.

I can't believe I missed that... they are I 3... suck. They are still way to good though, I'm not going to pass them up. They can take a beating.

And I agree with a lot that has been said here. Each cult unit has it's own purpose. Plague Marines camp objectives and don't care if they get charged because of blight grenades. Zerkers knock people off of objectives with powerful charges. Tsons lay down high AP fire to kill MEQs but avoid CC while Noise Marines are good at shooting a lot of shots and get the first attack when they are charged.

Basic CSM are good at everything but not the best that can be taken. They are more rounded for balance as a medium between the Cults. But I don't think they are good for accessing special weapons. They suck at that. If they get a heavy they lose a lot of mobility. I'd say go with the Havocs or Chosen for that stuff.

CSM do everything well for cheaper.

Cult Mariens do ONE thing very well, and everything else ok for more points.

Fearless is great, but the Chaos glory Icon does alot to make up for not having fearless, plus it's a whole lot cheaper.


Cult marines will always outshine CSM in one aspect, but CSM will do better than the cult marine in the other aspects.

so what do you want, one squad that is good at everything, or one squad that is REALLY good at a certain aspect of the game.

some people prefer generalist squads, some prefer specialized squads.

but both are good.

I wonder how you figure rerollable ld10 is better then fearless with the new negative modifiers?

I also have a hard time to see what basic CSM is that makes it more alround then some of the others. Everyone get 2 CC weapons(except 1k sons), everyone has at least the sandard marine stats(cults have better). Its just some kind of propaganda that the CSM is more all round, they need to be kitted out for whatever they will do just like everyone else.

If you get a heavy for them (the only thing they can have that the others doesnt) you will have a 10 man unit standing around for 1 hwy weapon.

you want combat troops? have berserkers or noise marines

you want shooting troops? have 1KSons or Noise marines

you want troops to hold objectives? Take Plague marines

you want ranged anti-tank? take obliterators.

there arent any reasons for taking CSM over cult marines, unless you want a fluffy army.

a squad dedicated to something will outperform a generalised squad every time. extra versitility is valuble, but not at the expense of a primary use.

a heavy weapon is useful but isnt worth having to take 10 men for. what will the other 9 guys do when your firing that lascannon at a land raider. if you want to give them an IoCG then they wont get the binifits of the other icons. if you give them another icon they may run away. the only reason to take CSM was to take the 2 compulsary Troop choices in 4th. with troops now being the only scoring unit, and there being better troops availiable, there is no contest.

Regwon wrote:you want combat troops? have berserkers or noise marines

you want shooting troops? have 1KSons or Noise marines

you want troops to hold objectives? Take Plague marines

you want ranged anti-tank? take obliterators.

there arent any reasons for taking CSM over cult marines, unless you want a fluffy army.

a squad dedicated to something will outperform a generalised squad every time. extra versitility is valuble, but not at the expense of a primary use.

a heavy weapon is useful but isnt worth having to take 10 men for. what will the other 9 guys do when your firing that lascannon at a land raider. if you want to give them an IoCG then they wont get the binifits of the other icons. if you give them another icon they may run away. the only reason to take CSM was to take the 2 compulsary Troop choices in 4th. with troops now being the only scoring unit, and there being better troops availiable, there is no contest.

CSM are cheaper than the alternatives. They're capable in shooting and it takes a quality assault unit with decent numbers unit to confidently assault them.

If you absolutely, positively must have something to shoot up MEQs, you take Thousand Sons.

If you absolutely, positively must have a dead hard troops choice that'll absord a pile of enemy fire, take plague marines.

If you absolutely, positively must have a dedicated assault unit, take Bezerkers.

But if you've already taken other specialist units needed to execute your plan and find yourself needing an adaptable unit capable of covering whatever gaps appear when the game starts, CSM are your choice. They're just about the perfect example of an adaptable troop choice.

cult marines do everything CSM do, and more. you should know what gaps there are in your army, what you will need where and when, and how to deploy them. dont take sub-standard choices because youre not sure what you will need. make sure you KNOW what you will need and plan accoringly.

you should take choices what absolutely, positively do the job you need done as effectively as possible. you dont take somthing that may or may not do well, but may or may not do something else well. you take the choice that you know ill do well. if you want something else done, pick something else to do it.

CSM are jacks of all trades, yet masters of none. ill stick with the masters thanks.

Kallbrand wrote:I wonder how you figure rerollable ld10 is better then fearless with the new negative modifiers?

I also have a hard time to see what basic CSM is that makes it more alround then some of the others. Everyone get 2 CC weapons(except 1k sons), everyone has at least the sandard marine stats(cults have better). Its just some kind of propaganda that the CSM is more all round, they need to be kitted out for whatever they will do just like everyone else.

If you get a heavy for them (the only thing they can have that the others doesnt) you will have a 10 man unit standing around for 1 hwy weapon.

Better? No, I said makes up for. for 30% off the top, I will take a re-rollable Ld 10 vs fearless. Also If my 10 man unit has lost a combat by more than 4 men anyway, they are already as good as dead, might as well let the CSM die so that I can shoot whatever assault unit that killed them the next turn. vs any other leadership test a re-rollable 10 is really hard to miss, espcially since there is not longer a -1 ld for being under half.

buying a heavy for them means you have the OPTION of staying still and shooting, it doesn't mean you have to. and a lascannon comes in real handy vs av 13-14 tanks in the new rules. no cult marine has a very good answer for an av 14 tank. it's an option that allows the unit to be more flexible.

Regwon- so what you are saying is the you KNOW what every opponent's army organization will be everytime you hit the table, or make a CSM list? Wow, you should work for the psychic hotline!!

i actually started using icons but with the new alocation rules you can fail only one armor save and have it be the icon and the squad loses the benifit
but if you take cult marines you get the benifit down to the last man
i use plaque marines and pay 3 more points for feal no pain fearless and i get those abiliteys to the last man

I think csm squads with las will be not that good but squads with heavybolters could be realy awsome. since most poeple be taking more troops, you can use your csm squad to fight other troop choices. i think having cult marines will be essential but having atleast one csm squad with a heavy bolter will be very good for taking objectives or helping a squad of pm hold an objective can be very good. i know poeple will then turn around and say that noise marines can do the same, and this is slightly true but the csm are still slightly cheaper. at the end of the day well only know after we playtest them with the new rules.

You want to run CSM? Instead of comparing them to cult troops, which is apples and oranges...compare them to SM.

Right, they are SM without SM benefits.

So if you want to run a army based around CSM, run a SM army instead. It's better.

When the CSM book is redone, CSM won't suck and you can use them again.

I think that regular CSM's with the Icon of Chaos glory are still an excellent buy. They are better than regular Space Marines and do a good job adding bodies to an army that desperately needs them. They are good troops and I believe that all rounders really are useful. I'm not a fan of the other icons in 5-10 man units because they mimic the cult troops, but the point difference is negligible, and the cult troops are better for the given job.

The only other icon I like is the mark of Nurgle for a big tough squad. 20 CSM's with the mark of nurgle only cost 2.5 more points per model and are a tough unit to deal with that can toss around a lot of firepower or close combat attacks. Its a big investment (over 400pts for a big squad with a powerfist and two plasma guns) but the other guy will have a hard time moving it off of an objective.

5th edition will mean that small 5 or 6 man squads with good leadership and a re-roll will be quite useful. Small troops units with a chaos glory icon and an assault weapon that can run around the board summoning daemons, obliterators or terminators will be a good buy simply because they will attract fire and force the other guy to kill every last little bugger. Cult troops aren't that well suited for this role.

Berzerkers are bad troops in my opinion. They cost more than they should and they always seem to get shot up before they get into hand to hand.

Plague Marines are great troops and give the regular CSM's a good run for their money, I can see why someone would prefer them over regular marines in a competitive force. The initiative thing isn't much of a loss and they are worth the extra points. I concede that they are all around better than a normal CSM for the points.

Thousand Suns are good against other marines, but against armies with lots of troops (orks, 5th ed nid swarms, IG, some eldar armies) they are mediocre, no more survivable against small arms fire and have to take an expensive sorcerer to lead them. I don't think they are bad troops, but for an all around tournament list, they will eat up points and reduce the number of boots on the ground.

Noise Marines aren't all that different than regular CSM's, but they do have access to a lot of cool upgrades that allow them to do many different battlefield roles. They pay for these skills though and aren't any tougher to kill. I like them as a squad that can put out a lot of firepower on the move, but a small squad with a blastmaster seems like it will be vulnerable in 5th edition to scouting troops and deep strikers.

To conclude, I think that regular CSM's still have a lot of potential roles in the Chaos army list. They are solid basic troops can do everything a cult squad can do less well for less points. They are in my opinion however going to be the top pick for a small supporting troops unit.

I feel like an army with 2 squads of Plague Marines or Noise Marines, and two 5 man CSM squads w/Chaos Glory and either a flamer or meltagun would be a solid base for a CSM troops section.

Look, I play Tau, but I've played numerous time against this competitive chaos player (who introduced me to the hobby) in my local store and he's handed me my ass, repeatedly. He makes extensive use of cult marines and as a result, I've had the honor of playing against armies composed almost entirely of only one type of cult marine, the details of which I can go over briefly from a non-chaos standpoint seeing as how I've lost to all of them (the guy has some absurd win-loss record like 50-5-1 or something.) Just keep in mind this is all still 4th Ed. stuff:

Zerkers: the first game I ever played, I managed to get a zerker squad within 12'' to one man, and I kinda said "well feth it, it's one guy, how much damage can he do?" He got into melee and killed 12 guys and two drones, all by himself.


Tsons: If I ever decide to play chaos, I'm fielding these guys. They're hard to kill like all marines but moving up a potential 6 and shooting 24'' means they will almost certainly be able to get first strike firing on whatever is fighting them. They're shooty as hell and from what I'm told, you probably need to assault them to be able to ...well, not necessarily kill them, but to stop their shooting game, anyways.

Noise Marines: Honestly, I don't think these guys are too great. They have deadlier guns ,from what I saw of them, but as a Tau player, I was able to out shoot them for most of the game, and honestly, while they have better initiative, you probably shouldn't be getting in melee with chaos anyways unless you're specifically playing a CC army. Lost to this army, but this had more to do with bikes and deep striking termies, really.

Plaguemarines: They're harder to kill. I hate to come off as lazy, but that more or less summarizes them. They're not particularly more dangerous than standard marines, they just are harder to kill and they're fearless. I lost to this army as well, but this had more to do with possessed marines and two demon princes plowing into my lines than anything else.

The common ground among all these units is that they're all fearless, which is a HUGE deal. It is very helpful to be able to try to shoot a squad to pieces in the hope that they'll break and thus become less of a threat, not to mention pinning. Fearless throws that all out the window- for example if you can't kill a group of Tsons in a volley of shooting from a devilfish squad, chances are, they'll pass their target priority test and shoot and break your firewarrior squads right out of any useful range. And unlike Grey Knights, who are basically just point-heavy enough to make them losing investments-points wise (because deepstriking GK don't have enough fire power to really hurt a big gunline, seeing as how they'll get shoot to death on the next turn, and the footsloggers have to deal with Heavy weapons/armor/whatever if they go on foot) you can usually field enough cult marines to provide for about two, sometimes three 10 man groups, and still have enough points leftover for armor and a (small) fast attack choice. those twenty guys are almost always a tremendous pain to kill, and once they get to their preferred range (with in 24''-ish for Tsons, mid range for noise marines, CC for zerkers) you're going to have a serious problem on your hands, particularly if you opponent decides to deep strike some demons in your back lines.

I whole heartedly support cult marines for 4E chaos. They're that damn good. So field them already, damnit.

10 CSM: move up, rapid-fire, 16 bolter shots, 4 plasmagun shots. Finish. Get charged next turn, striking... eh, first or same time.

10 Noisemarines with sonic blasters: Move up, assault 2 for 18 shots, shoot a doomsiren death template, charge, everyone has 3 attacks on the charge, striking first against almost everything.

You pay more for them, but they've got options - like shooting and then assaulting, for one. True, the CSM can fire pistols and then charge, but that's not really better. The other units either shoot much more effectively or take that resulting charge a lot better.

And personally, 5th edition wound allocation is what really kills it for me. Chance to lose my entire squad's benefits in one go? I don't really like the sound of that.

And while rerolled ld checks might be better than fearless sometimes, keep in mind that if you are outnumbered 10:1 and lost combat by 1, the reroll guys test on a 9 with a reroll. The fearless guys make 10 armour saves. Ouch.

Granted the more you lose combat by the better off fearless troops are. But for those narrow losses, fearlessness turns into a liability when outnumbered.

Hmmm I was under the impression combat loss limits your fearless wounds by combat loss = outnumbering.

The unfriendly local game stores have been hiding their copies of the 5E rules, so I only have my 30 day prerelease copy to look over. lol

Does it? That'd really be awesome, but as far as I know I thought there was no limit to the amount you could be screwed by. I hope I'm pleasantly surprised.

They changed it so its the neg mod. now, no reason to outnumber anymore :/

Well, remember CSM DO have advantages over loyalists; they have higher Ld, can take a chapter banner equivalent in ANY squad, and can have a second plasma/melta/flamer at 10 men while SM need the clease and purify trait to do that.

Kallbrand wrote:They changed it so its the neg mod. now, no reason to outnumber anymore :/

Outnumbering only matters if the enemy is fearless and loses combat.

Or perhaps when space marines flee and are caught, in which case currently they follow the same rules for fearless units being outnumbered and losing. We'll see what happens in the next codex.

I personally like the outnumbering inflicting wounds rules.

Fearless units are still reliable, but you can now finish the combat when they are spent (unlike 1 or 2 guys holding on for another turn against a 20 man squad).

Everybody has far over exaggerated the problem.

"oh noes I'm outnumbered 10 to one, I'll take 10 wounds".

Well really when is this going to matter? for you to lose 10 guys you will need 100 enemies in the combat!!!!!!!

100!!!

if you let your enemies get 90 more guys than you into a combat you might as well pack up & lose now... hurry up and let your opponent go find a skilled player to play against you noob!!!

now if its 10:1, 10 models vs one model, you will be losing one model... not enough to cry about. Atleast your squads wont have to waste a turn or 2 clearing up 1 or 2 fearless models.

Back on topic, CSM(no icon) & Plague marines beat horde Genestealers(16 pt) and plague marines beat tooled up Genestealers(26pt) in combat assuming a vacuum and assuming 1shot before combat per marine and the GS assault the marines.

Korn Berserkers Lose against all GS if they get charged and can only win if they charge horde GS(16 pt) and its not by much...

of course random luck means any side can win, but these were worked out on average....

but CSM stand more chance than Berserkers, in CC vs Genestealers.

why? well people look at the ws bs s t i a of the model to determine its combat value. But remember CSM are cheap, so its like they have 1.4 Wounds each (relative to their cost), that makes alot of difference, they have their own cannon fodder built in!

So CSM are better than berserkers in cc against gs, if you do the mathhammer.

A salient point that should be reiterated is the point that out-numbering does nothing in 5th edition - the wounds taken by a Fearless unit is equal to the amount that they lost the combat by (as I understand it...).

Aside from this error, though, roadkill is right on the money: you get more Chaos Space Marine bodies out of the same amount of points as Cult Marines. Which is important when your enemy may be toting Plasma Cannons...

Stelek wrote:You want to run CSM? Instead of comparing them to cult troops, which is apples and oranges...compare them to SM.

Right, they are SM without SM benefits.

So if you want to run a army based around CSM, run a SM army instead. It's better.

When the CSM book is redone, CSM won't suck and you can use them again.

SM vs CSM?
They can all have LD 10, yay, CSM have that, and they don't lose it when the HQ dies.
They have "AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR", CSM can re-roll that morale check, and have an Automatic extra attack in CC, due to boltpistol and CCweapon, and so are less likely to lose CC by a huge margin.
They can have a teleport homer in every squad, plus some of their troops choices can teleport in AND charge in the same turn!

CSM are a great troops choice for the bargain of 15 point plus some pretty solid options.

they are great all rounders. so if you like allrounders, go for it.

if you don't then play cult.

but CSM don't suck by any stretch of the imagination.

Please run a CSM army at a GT.

Then call 1-800-MY-ARMY-SUCKS for technical support.

Tzeentch is standing by to take your call!