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I asked this in the True LoS thread and it hasn't been answered.

Without quoting exactly from the BGB and codex, the query arises as follows:

Cover saves apply to units that are partially obscured by scenery that blocks LoS.

Tau SMS do not require LoS to shoot at a target.

Does this mean that SMS ignores cover saves?

I note that barrage weapons which can also ignore LoS count cover saves that would apply from the middle of their template, rather than from the viewpoint of the firer. The SMS does not have a template. Also, area terrain always gives a cover save against barrage weapons.

It says in the entry that units get a cover save from the missile if they are in or behind cover they are next to.

So they get it from where they are, but not from a building they are standing on the other side of for example. As the direction of the missile isn't counted.

Also, for similar circumstances, not requiring LOS does not invalidate it being blocked. I.E. "I can't see youclearly, or at all, but that's ok because I don't need to." This statement by itself grants a cover save according to RAW. Apone's response clarifies the matter further, but without that clarification, you would definitely get coversaves.

So let's say the target unit is in a bunker or wood, it gets the cover save. If it's the other side of a bunker or wood, but out in the open, it does not get the cover save.

I agree, if the target is in something that would give them cover... woods, bunkers, buildings, craters, etc. they get the cover save. But they do not get cover from interving area terrain or other models as LOS blockage is not a consideration for weapons that don't need LOS.

Kilkrazy wrote:I asked this in the True LoS thread and it hasn't been answered.

Without quoting exactly from the BGB and codex, the query arises as follows:

Cover saves apply to units that are partially obscured by scenery that blocks LoS.

Tau SMS do not require LoS to shoot at a target.

Does this mean that SMS ignores cover saves?

I note that barrage weapons which can also ignore LoS count cover saves that would apply from the middle of their template, rather than from the viewpoint of the firer. The SMS does not have a template. Also, area terrain always gives a cover save against barrage weapons.

If I am understanding the question correctly, No enemy units get a cover saves from friendly troops:

Quote Tau Empires "The target can count the benefits of cover they are in, or are touching if it lies between them and the firer"

There are only two conditions to get a cover save against smart missles and troops in front isn't one of them (unless on model from unit A is touching one model from unit B), so until a FAQ comes out and says differently I would say RAW is a no on that.

Units get cover saves for intervening cover unless the weapon rules specify otherwise. While the SMS states units touching or in terrain get cover, they never state that intervening cover *does not* grant cover saves.

Since the rulebook gives cover saves for intervening cover and the codex never counteracts this rule - cover saves for SMS are granted for units behind buildings, forest, etc just like for any other weapon. The only special rule the SMS has is that it doesn't require LOS.

I beg to differ.

Units get cover saves because the LoS is partially blocked. A weapon that doesn't need LoS cannot be partially blocked.

Some kinds of cover always grant cover, for example a bunker obviously shelters everything inside it, and area terrain grants cover because it is simply too complex to do it a different way.

The situation needs to be clarified by an FAQ.

Democratus wrote:Units get cover saves for intervening cover unless the weapon rules specify otherwise. While the SMS states units touching or in terrain get cover, they never state that intervening cover *does not* grant cover saves.

Since the rulebook gives cover saves for intervening cover and the codex never counteracts this rule - cover saves for SMS are granted for units behind buildings, forest, etc just like for any other weapon. The only special rule the SMS has is that it doesn't require LOS.

Totally disagree. The Tau Codex for the SMS entries states the only cover saves available are terrain they are in or touching. That part cannot be argued with. If it allowed behind buildings, other troops etc it would say so (which is pretty difficult as it was written before 5th).

I predict that this will be a bone of contention, that GW will take a long time to FAQ it, and when they do they will give the cover save.

I don't think it'll be a bone of contention even if it doesn't get FAQ'd.

Post all the relevant rules in a thread along with a 'regardless of the RAW how are you going to play it' YMTC poll thread and see what comes up.

I know I play that SMS don't allow cover saves unless the enemy unit is directly in or behind cover and I'd wager the ratio is probably around 70% in that direction (if not more).

fullheadofhair wrote:
Totally disagree. The Tau Codex for the SMS entries states the only cover saves available are terrain they are in or touching.

That part cannot be argued with. If it allowed behind buildings, other troops etc it would say so (which is pretty difficult as it was written before 5th).

Democratus wrote:

fullheadofhair wrote:
Totally disagree. The Tau Codex for the SMS entries states the only cover saves available are terrain they are in or touching.

That part cannot be argued with. If it allowed behind buildings, other troops etc it would say so (which is pretty difficult as it was written before 5th).

That isn't true. The word only isn't there. It just states that units that are in or touching area terrain get a cover save. If it had said "only" then you would be right. Since it doesn't then all other rules also apply.

It does contain the phrase "passing around any blocking terrain". Before clarifying that cover saves for being in or directly against a terrain piece between the target and the firer will grant a cover save.

Codex : Tau Empire
Page 27
Smart Missile Section

ill skip to the important part.

the codex wrote: The target can count the benefits of cover they are in, or are touching if it lies between them and the firer

the way i read this.

if a squad or ork boys are hiding behind some grots but are not in BASE TO BASE contact with them. the boys will not get a cover save as the unit is not touching the "cover"

if the squad of boys is base to base with the grots then yes, they will get a cover save as they are "touching the cover that lies between them and the firer"

*EDIT* if the squad of boyz are behind an intact building, but not in BASE TO BASE with said building then they would not get a cover save, as they are not fullfilling the requirements needed by the codex. they are not touch the "cover"

if they ARE in base to base contact with the building, then yes. they would get a cover save if the building lies between them and the SMS firer.

*EDIT* ding 100 posts. oooo im a "sniper drone" now

Drunkspleen wrote:It does contain the phrase "passing around any blocking terrain". Before clarifying that cover saves for being in or directly against a terrain piece between the target and the firer will grant a cover save.

Yes, it does. Unfortunately that phrase has no meaning as a rule. Unless a weapon says that it ignores cover saves, then it grants them. Much like a scattering Blast weapon, units that are completly out of LOS can be hit - but they still get cover saves for the intervening terrain.

Without a rule stating "weapons that can fire without LOS ignore cover saves" or the like then RAW leaves us with cover saves for all units on the other side of cover. The SMS rules never contradict this basic principle. Stating that units in or touching intervening area terrain actually ADDS more cover saves. It doesn't reduce them. In the base rules, units on the other side of area terrain only get cover if they are between two sufficiently tall pieces of terrain inside the area. The rule cited gives defending units a cover save regardless of how the area terrain is represented.

It says right in the 'dex. If the unit is BEHIND a building or another squad, but not touching said terrain, they get NO cover save. If they are touching or are inside of the terrain, they get a cover save.

Seamus O'Shank wrote:It says right in the 'dex. If the unit is BEHIND a building or another squad, but not touching said terrain, they get NO cover save.

This is never stated anywhere in the codex.

pg.27

Under "Smart Missilie System" -

"The target can count the benefits of cover they are IN or are TOUCHING, if it lies between them and the firer."

So I guess that means that if the firer can see the target, even if the target is touching terrain BESIDE them, they still don't get a cover save.

However, it clearly says that the target can have a cover save if they are IN or are TOUCHING terrain between them and the firer. Therefore, if they are only BEHIND the terrain, and still in the open, they get no cover save.

Democratus wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:It does contain the phrase "passing around any blocking terrain". Before clarifying that cover saves for being in or directly against a terrain piece between the target and the firer will grant a cover save.

Yes, it does. Unfortunately that phrase has no meaning as a rule. Unless a weapon says that it ignores cover saves, then it grants them. Much like a scattering Blast weapon, units that are completly out of LOS can be hit - but they still get cover saves for the intervening terrain.

Without a rule stating "weapons that can fire without LOS ignore cover saves" or the like then RAW leaves us with cover saves for all units on the other side of cover. The SMS rules never contradict this basic principle. Stating that units in or touching intervening area terrain actually ADDS more cover saves. It doesn't reduce them. In the base rules, units on the other side of area terrain only get cover if they are between two sufficiently tall pieces of terrain inside the area. The rule cited gives defending units a cover save regardless of how the area terrain is represented.

Cover against blast weapons is counted from the middle of the template. Imagine the target is inside an upturned yoghurt pot and the shell lands in the middle. The target model gets no cover save, because the terrain is not intervening.

A shooter outside the yoghurt pot would not be able to fire at the models inside, due to lack of LoS. (I think this prevents flamers from shooting too.)

The SMS would be able to shoot at the model inside because it ignores LoS. Would the model inside the yoghurt pot get a cover save?

Imagine the model is 18 inches away, and 3 inches from the Tau unit with an SMS there is a tall building with no windows. There is no LoS. The SMS can shoot at the unseen target because of its special rule. Does the target get a cover save?

What if the tall building was 3 inches from the target?

Kilkrazy wrote:

Democratus wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:It does contain the phrase "passing around any blocking terrain". Before clarifying that cover saves for being in or directly against a terrain piece between the target and the firer will grant a cover save.

Yes, it does. Unfortunately that phrase has no meaning as a rule. Unless a weapon says that it ignores cover saves, then it grants them. Much like a scattering Blast weapon, units that are completly out of LOS can be hit - but they still get cover saves for the intervening terrain.

Without a rule stating "weapons that can fire without LOS ignore cover saves" or the like then RAW leaves us with cover saves for all units on the other side of cover. The SMS rules never contradict this basic principle. Stating that units in or touching intervening area terrain actually ADDS more cover saves. It doesn't reduce them. In the base rules, units on the other side of area terrain only get cover if they are between two sufficiently tall pieces of terrain inside the area. The rule cited gives defending units a cover save regardless of how the area terrain is represented.

Cover against blast weapons is counted from the middle of the template. Imagine the target is inside an upturned yoghurt pot and the shell lands in the middle. The target model gets no cover save, because the terrain is not intervening.

A shooter outside the yoghurt pot would not be able to fire at the models inside, due to lack of LoS. (I think this prevents flamers from shooting too.)

The SMS would be able to shoot at the model inside because it ignores LoS. Would the model inside the yoghurt pot get a cover save?

Imagine the model is 18 inches away, and 3 inches from the Tau unit with an SMS there is a tall building with no windows. There is no LoS. The SMS can shoot at the unseen target because of its special rule. Does the target get a cover save?

What if the tall building was 3 inches from the target?

Since it is IN the yoghurt pot, therefore IN terrain, it gets a cover save.

Regardless of whether the tall building is 3 inches from shooter or target, the target gets no cover save because they are not in or touching the terrain.

Seamus O'Shank wrote:pg.27

Under "Smart Missilie System" -

"The target can count the benefits of cover they are IN or are TOUCHING, if it lies between them and the firer."

So I guess that means that if the firer can see the target, even if the target is touching terrain BESIDE them, they still don't get a cover save.

However, it clearly says that the target can have a cover save if they are IN or are TOUCHING terrain between them and the firer. Therefore, if they are only BEHIND the terrain, and still in the open, they get no cover save.

That is incorrect.

The base rules give us this:
1) Units behind cover get a save
2) Units in area terrain get a save

The Tau Codex gives us this
3) Units in area terrain get a save.
4) Units touching the far side of area terrain get a save

At no point in the Tau codex does it state that units behind cover and not touching it do not get a save. It only makes statements in the positive - none in the negative.

The base rules always completely apply unless specifically contradicted by a codex. Nowhere in the Tau codex does it contradict #1 from the base rules. Therefore this rule is still in effect.

Democratus wrote:

Seamus O'Shank wrote:pg.27

Under "Smart Missilie System" -

"The target can count the benefits of cover they are IN or are TOUCHING, if it lies between them and the firer."

So I guess that means that if the firer can see the target, even if the target is touching terrain BESIDE them, they still don't get a cover save.

However, it clearly says that the target can have a cover save if they are IN or are TOUCHING terrain between them and the firer. Therefore, if they are only BEHIND the terrain, and still in the open, they get no cover save.

That is incorrect.

The base rules give us this:
1) Units behind cover get a save
2) Units in area terrain get a save

The Tau Codex gives us this
3) Units in area terrain get a save.
4) Units touching the far side of area terrain get a save

At no point in the Tau codex does it state that units behind cover and not touching it do not get a save. It only makes statements in the positive - none in the negative.

The base rules always completely apply unless specifically contradicted by a codex. Nowhere in the Tau codex does it contradict #1 from the base rules. Therefore this rule is still in effect.

Wow... you must be a real joy to play against.

@ Democratus

the tau dex was rewritten for 4th ed.

but the dex gives 2 ways that you can get a cover save from a SMS shot.

1. behind cover if they ARE TOUCHING IT.

2. actualy in cover.

please go up are read my previous post. i am a tau player, and i was taking word for word from the tau dex there.

Envy89 wrote:@ Democratus

the tau dex was rewritten for 4th ed.

but the dex gives 2 ways that you can get a cover save from a SMS shot.

1. behind cover if they ARE TOUCHING IT.

2. actualy in cover.

please go up are read my previous post. i am a tau player, and i was taking word for word from the tau dex there.

Exactly. Why would the Tau 'dex state the ways you can have a cover save if it didn't mean that you COULDN'T have a save otherwise?

It's at times like this I wish GW had never shut down the EoT. You could always get a carefully considered opinion on a topic there.

Democratus wrote:

Seamus O'Shank wrote:pg.27

Under "Smart Missilie System" -

"The target can count the benefits of cover they are IN or are TOUCHING, if it lies between them and the firer."

So I guess that means that if the firer can see the target, even if the target is touching terrain BESIDE them, they still don't get a cover save.

However, it clearly says that the target can have a cover save if they are IN or are TOUCHING terrain between them and the firer. Therefore, if they are only BEHIND the terrain, and still in the open, they get no cover save.

That is incorrect.

The base rules give us this:
1) Units behind cover get a save
2) Units in area terrain get a save

The Tau Codex gives us this
3) Units in area terrain get a save.
4) Units touching the far side of area terrain get a save

At no point in the Tau codex does it state that units behind cover and not touching it do not get a save. It only makes statements in the positive - none in the negative.

The base rules always completely apply unless specifically contradicted by a codex. Nowhere in the Tau codex does it contradict #1 from the base rules. Therefore this rule is still in effect.

Sorry but that makes absolutely no sense. If all cover says applied because of the base rules why would the Tau codex say anything about ones you CAN get. That makes no logical sense. It is an implied negative and a common way of writing (note I said common and not good).

It is a smart missile that require no LOS therefore intervening terrain doesn't count and there is no difference between intervening terrain and a unit infront of another unit.

No save for you - come back 1 year.

So can you post this in the questions sticky so it gets asked?

Thanks.

Envy89 wrote:@ Democratus

the tau dex was rewritten for 4th ed.

but the dex gives 2 ways that you can get a cover save from a SMS shot.

1. behind cover if they ARE TOUCHING IT.

2. actualy in cover.

please go up are read my previous post. i am a tau player, and i was taking word for word from the tau dex there.

The dex gives ways to get cover from the SMS. It never removes ways to get cover. This is a requirement in a permissive rule set.

Just because a codex says something redundant (area terrain gives cover) doesn't change the rules. It just means that they wrote something redundant. This isn't the only example of this kind of writing. For example, the rules for the Psycannon state that Armor saves are allowed against the weapon. Does this mean cover saves aren't allowed? No, of course not. The base rules for the game are always in effect unless specifically contradicted in the codex.

I also play Tau. It's a fun army, and even better in 5th than it was in previous editions.

but the rules in a codex OVERRIDE the rules in the main rulebook.

I.E. the deciver, can force a fearless unit to fallback.

you can argure all you want, but the fearless unit can still fall back from the decivers ability... yes i have been at a tourny ware a guy argured about his gray knight termies that were standing a few inches away from phraias (whatever those nastey things that lower your leadership to 7 are) and failed the test forced by the deciver. his argument was "ok so i failed the check. nothign happens as it states in the main rules book that a fearless unit never falls back"

the judge laughed at him, rolled his fallback move (somehitng really high) and moved the models for him.


it is exactaly the same thing hear. the main rules book say you get cover if you are behind cover, or in it.

the tau SMS in the dex says that you CAN count the benfits of cover that the model is behind, IF you are touching the cover.

that is a clear, cut and dry, black and white contradiction to the main rules.



in regard to psycannons. they state that armor saves are allowed because INVUL saves are not. and did not want people playing the gun like that because that would be

Envy89 wrote:but the rules in a codex OVERRIDE the rules in the main rulebook.

I.E. the deciver, can force a fearless unit to fallback.

<good example text here...>

it is exactaly the same thing hear. the main rules book say you get cover if you are behind cover, or in it.

the tau SMS in the dex says that you CAN count the benfits of cover that the model is behind, IF you are touching the cover.

that is a clear, cut and dry, black and white contradiction to the main rules.

True. I agree with everything you say here. However, the rules for the SMS never say that you do not get cover for being behind terrain/other units. What they do is add a new condition where you get cover. For a codex to contradict the rulebook it must have language that specifically does so.

In your example, the Deciever is specifically allowed to force the Leadership Check on units even if they are Fearless. This is the codex very explicitly overriding the rulebook.

The Tau codex never states "units behind area terrain or other units do not get cover saves." Unless and until it says this - then it does not change the base rules.

As it stands, the Tau wording isn't entirely redundant because it adds a new way for a unit to get a cover save. If a unit is 1) behind area terrain 2) touching the terrain with its base and 3) not in between two features tall enough to obscure it - then the unit gets a cover save. In the base rules there would be no cover save because the model wasn't between two features high enough to count as providing cover. The Tau codex expands on this. Thus a unit touching the opposite side of area terrain in any position will get a cover save.

I realize that this is an artifact of the codex being written for 4th edition. But that doesn't change the text of the rules or what they mean. This was also the accepted interpretation at Chicago last weekend. So those who plan on tournament play should at least be aware of the RAW and ask tournament organizers before the game.

in regard to psycannons. they state that armor saves are allowed because INVUL saves are not. and did not want people playing the gun like that because that would be

The reasoning behind the rule isn't important. The important thing is that the rule states that Armor saves are allowed against the Psycannon. By the logic given from other posters here, this implies that Cover saves are not allowed against it. This is bad logic, though, because the Psycannon rules never override the core rules regarding cover saves. In the same fashion, the SMS rules never override the core rules either.