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I have been very much looking forward to the new rules! I expected some changes and had beenfollowing the rumors for months, and now finally I have gotten to play a few games with the new rules and some of my old favorites. Largely I really like the new rules and consider them a success, I am even building some new armies.

Unofrtunately one of my old favorites was my imperial guard army. After I played some test games with them, they did so poorly I don't even know if they can be valid to play for fun games. I realize this topic could go on in all sort of detail so I will come to the point of my post. CLose combat must be really scary in 40k all of a sudden!

Here is the situation, which I expect to be pretty common in games with them. I played a test game versus black templars with a pretty simple old IG army of mine, my army was 2 platoons, 2 roughrider squads, a heavy platoon, 2 basilisks a command section and 2 heavy support sections, pretty vanilla, no doctrines or anything for my test game, my opponents ary was black templars with the emperors champion and pretty much 5 razorbacks with marines in them He siezed the innitiative and got to go first...

Essentially the EC ans 4 marines killed my whole army.

A single Rhino with a squad and the EC made a shock move straint into my lines, I destroyed it and the marines hid behind the wreck, I plinked off 3 with a host of fire, leaving only 4 and the EC. I figured I'd charge them and wipe them out easily with my number 1 RR squad, only I couldnt because I had to take the most direct route into CC, which was over the wreck for some models, so all my RR fought at I1, and were nearly killed before they got to swing, because the marines beat them by more than 5 kills, they immediately failed their morale test and were run down. 10 men dead, no effect.

Next turn the marines charged into my gunline in cover, but because they had frag grenades, they struck at Initiative, I actually managed to pull one down in CC, with an entire platoon, but because I lost by 5 kills, EVERY UNIT had to take a morale check at -5 and even with a flag they failed, well except one, which kept the SM lockled so I couldnt shoot them. 20 men dead no effect.

The next turn the same unit black templars charge into my other RR unit, just barely reaching one model, as well as 2 other heavy support sections and once again, winning by more than 5, I had no one to strike back, and yes, 16 men killed no effect.

At this point the rest of my army had killed or immobilized all the BT tanks, but that one squad had cut the entire center out of my army. AT one point I had them in CC with almost 30 models and in the old days, with my flag, I wouldn't have had a problem pulling down 3 marines, but not anymore.

I surendered in after turn 3 as the BT command group was in range to charge the rest of my units.

In conclusion:

Weight of numbers counts for nothing.
Fantasy battle style morale checks for CC in 40K are awful.
The compund morale check modifier is awful (for mutlipel units, hypothetical if 20 orks charged 50 IG and killed a difference of 10, every IG unit would have to check LD at -10??? even ones with no casualties?).
There is no hope to pull down strong models with weaker ones in CC.
IG have no chance in CC, and especially in Kill Points games.

Probably have to shelf the IG.

Different rules have different flavors, I actually like the new rules, but it is very alarming that I use to have a chance at a pyhric victory in CC before, with superior numbers, but now they count for nothing. Anyone esle care to comment or have similar experiences?

So far I have not run into this problem with the Guard. I am not sure they will perform as well in 5th as they did in 4th, but nothing quite so bleak.

The biggest mental change for me has been realizing that with the new consolidtation and cover rules, it is often worthwhile to use the run rule and positioning to prevent an opponent (particularly one down to small squad sizes) from being able to charge more than one squad at a time. In this case, the new morale is quite useful-they get run down, and the opponent can either a) move outside of rapid fire range and get shot two turns in a row or b) move closer and face immediate rapid-firing.

I used to love the old pile in and kill things tactic, but that is defintely dead with this edition-feeding one squad to the enemy is the new order of the day.

The retinue rule also presents the possibility of using powerfist JO's as a stop gap measure to take down one or two marines at a time and reduce the negative modifiers. It is bad for KP's, but in other missions can cause a nice amount of damage if smaller squads close to your lines need a finishing blow the guns cannot deliver.

The change to frag grenades makes Close Order Drill more important than ever.

you shouldnt have charged with your rr squad.
you should have shot him, let him charge a squad and then shot him again after he killed that one squad or you could have charged after he wiped out the 1 squad ensuring your rr did what they were supposed to.

if you hadnt of charged him he may have been hampered by the same terrain that screwed you giving you yet another turn to lay into him.

I wonder if COD will survive the next IG codex.

I also recognize my supreme eror in not giving my RR frag grenades. But it was just a test game and that is what was on the sheet.

I quit playing WHFB because I was tired of fighting Bretonians and Chaos, and killing most of their units with Magic, Boltthrowers, or CC but having a champion/general/standard bearer in a cav unit survive and charge into a small unit of mine and break the army with morale checks.

That's what the game above felt like.

As I recall RR's cannot buy frag grenades, just krak/melta, so no error there. I guess the Veteran Sgt. could buy them, but the squad itself is stuck fighting at I1.

usernamesareannoying wrote:if you hadnt of charged him he may have been hampered by the same terrain that screwed you giving you yet another turn to lay into him.

Yes probably so.

Future games may not be as slanted, and I will certainly take frag grenades.

But what do you think of the morale rules? Lets simplify the example to an old CC, just for arguments sake. 30 Conscripts versus a couple stragglers in an assault unit. In the Old rules the assault guys would charge, and you would get hit, probably loose 3-4 models and have to take a flat morale check, good flag position and you get a reroll 2 tries for a 6.

New rules, same thing happens, you get the counter charge, you loose 5-6 models, maybe get one, and have 2 tries for a morale check at 4-5 or a 2. Or an (almost) certain failure.

Isn't that an awful big change?

**quick spelling edit**

The new consolidation rule and lack of screening should save the Imperial Guard.

Suicide squads (including Rough Riders) are offensive (flamers are better now) and rapid fire Lasguns is 18" range.

Augustus wrote:
But what do you think of the morale rules? Lets simplify the example to an old CC, just for argumants sake. 30 Conscripts versus a couple stragglers in an assault unit. In the Old rules the assault guys would charge, and you would get hit, probably loose 3-4 models and have to take a flat morale check, good flag position and you get a reroll 2 tries for a 6.

New rules, same thing happens, you get the counter charge, you loose 5-6 models, maybe get one, and have 2 tries for a morale check at 4-5 or a 2. Or an (almost) certain failure.

Isn't that an awful big change?

Maybe I am misunderstanding this example, but wouldn't the margin of defeat be less with the new counter-charge rule? With 2" coherency, the stragglers, regardless of number, should have been able to get close to five or six kills if they had sufficient attacks to rack up that many missed saves. The 6" counter-charge gives the conscripts a greatly enhanced opportunity to strike back, which would seem to contribute to a reduced spread, not more.

However, I would still agree with you to the extent that with the new rules, sans Gaunt, they are a fairly big risk to field in size.

Just for reference:

30 conscripts (or IG) S3

Marines kill 6

24 strike back I3
12 hit
4 wound
1 dies

Average case, assuming you get them all in, which I didn't, counter charge doesnt help with a succes rate of about .042

Even if you get him, you are taking the morale check at MINUS 5 for every unit on the side.

You are loosing the whole bunch...

Tacobake wrote:The new consolidation rule and lack of screening should save the Imperial Guard.

Suicide squads (including Rough Riders) are offensive (flamers are better now) and rapid fire Lasguns is 18" range.

Sorry Tacobake, actually screening hurt me, if I put my heavy weapons behind my own guys, he got saves too, wich knocked out half of my lascannon fire.

Offensive roughriders got wrecked without grenades because they had to charge through cover.

I had some flamers I still never got to shoot them because of the pattern where my opponent managed to stay in assault in my turns.

Rapid fire lasgun is 18 inches? You mean moving toward the assault guys? (To get in 12 inch range) That doesnt make much senseas casualties can come from anywhere in the target unit, you do that now, and you are giving him an assault for sure as the owning player can pull the gack from anywhere and keep you in range, not only that you have told him the range for sure too...

Harder than you might think I posit.

How is that different from V4 Augie (is there no limit to the number of modifiers or what?) I don't have V5 yet.

its unfortunate that he charged the entire platoon at once (i cant for the life of me think how he did that with one squad though), but thats pretty much what you have to do with CC armies now. for gun lines, if you throw up a few suicide squads infront of your main line then when those squads die in the first round of combat then you can shoot him with everything you have. if doesnt matter if a squad gets torn limb from limb now, you can shoot the guys later. that is the IG ethos after all.

a cc army has to hit and kill multiple squads at once to be able to kill a shooting army. otherwise he will kill a unit or two, but be shot appart by the rest of them.

as far as screening goes, heavy bolters dont care if marines are in cover. hellhounds dont care if anyone is in cover. use more of them in 5th. heavy bolters now kill MEQs much better than lascannon do, and for cheaper.

It sounds good on paper, to just go with the volume of fire. But that just doesnt work so well.

I will give it more of a try, as I have those units too, but not being able to hold up assault units with tarpits is frightful. It use to be key to my strategy.

No one seems to want to comment on the bovious pooint that IG just loose the Kill Piont games on the numkbers everytime also, which is worsened by this CC morale development.

jfrazell wrote:How is that different from V4 Augie (is there no limit to the number of modifiers or what?) I don't have V5 yet.

How it is different is every model you loose an assault by is a -1 modifier, and yes there is NO LIMIT!

If you had zagstruck say, DS and charge into a gunline, he and his squad could destroy maybe 12 models easily, then, every unit still alive would be at -12 morale checks. Previously they might have been regular checks if they outnumbered the orks after the thrashing, or maybe -1 for below 50.

Not anymore.

Regwon wrote:its unfortunate that he charged the entire platoon at once (i cant for the life of me think how he did that with one squad though), ...

He came from the side after the 1st melee, it was pretty easy, I had my guys staggered as you suggest but he was close enough after the melee with the RR to do it.

Regwon wrote:...but thats pretty much what you have to do with CC armies now. for gun lines, if you throw up a few suicide squads infront of your main line then when those squads die in the first round of combat then you can shoot him with everything you have. if doesnt matter if a squad gets torn limb from limb now, you can shoot the guys later. that is the IG ethos after all.

a cc army has to hit and kill multiple squads at once to be able to kill a shooting army. otherwise he will kill a unit or two, but be shot appart by the rest of them.

Yes that sounds good, but remember we are talking about 2-5 fearless or essentially so models charging doing that much damage, it didn't matter if they had been shot up as long as the important ones got to charge, and they still do.

Augustus wrote:
No one seems to want to comment on the bovious pooint that IG just loose the Kill Piont games on the numkbers everytime also, which is worsened by this CC morale development.

It can certainly be an up-hill battle. I will be switching towards running more tanks and less infantry-heavy to deal with this; the tanks roll on and shoot things up, while the KP-heavy infantry (particularly the command squads . . .) stay in reserve as long as possible. If the enemy gets too close with flankers/deep striking, then they can walk on rapid-fire plasma or melta them away.

And trust me, as someone who has 300+ Guard infantry in their collection, that is not a change I wanted to make.

The biggest draw back to this is the difficulty in killing enemy tanks without lascannons and the like on the board. I am still working out what mixture of Chimera-based veterans can perform this; deep striking is so risky in this edition (within my experiences with it) that I feel safer driving around in the taxi and hoping that some tanks end up within 18". The loss of infiltrate when Hardened Vets take the Chimera is rather harsh too.

Augustus wrote:No one seems to want to comment on the bovious pooint that IG just loose the Kill Piont games on the numkbers everytime also, which is worsened by this CC morale development.

youre right augustus, were screwed for now on that one.
hopefully the new dex will fix that.

Indeed gentlemen, lets hope!

Maybe the Valkyries can save us!

(I really like the solution Yakface posed earlier to compare the kill point ratios, I almost can't believe that didn't make the book.)

In the meantime you lads have made me reconsider, maybe I will get out all my Hellhounds and heavy bolters and just try and chuck it out! I wonder how 3 Tri Bolter Lemans and 3 Hellhounds Might do?

Personally, I like 2 Demolishers in the mix. You might not get to fire on the first turn, but AP2 is important in this edition. AV11 on the rear has also proved quite helpful.

Yea, I was thinking that too, stops assaults from the front at S4 having a chance.

Hmmmm...

(I already have 3 of those, heh)

Augustus wrote:Indeed gentlemen, lets hope!

Maybe the Valkyries can save us!

(I really like the solution Yakface posed earlier to compare the kill point ratios, I almost can't believe that didn't make the book.)

...

The Kill Point rule in the book looks like it was thought up in about 2 minutes and put in to fill a space.

I suppose there must be a balancing aspect I haven't understood.

Or perhaps not.

I haven't understood it yet either.

I have to agree with you Damian. The fantasy style moral is rough. However I feel once you master the style of it in 5th you can use it to your advantage.

And see you at Taticon

I faced a IG mostly gunline list Saturday in a store league game with my Orks. He had 3 bassies and 2 chimeras and the rest footsloggers. I had a horde of Orks. I won due to it being annihilation but I have to say it is very tiring to charge the defense in depth of IG now. My opponent simply layered 10 man squads in 4 layers and let me assault them in turn. Every time I massacred a squad I would get rapid fired by all the rear squads. It really took a toll on my greenskins.

Yeah, as an IG player, I'm glad combat is so stupidly killy now. Anything of mine that gets charged, I simply write off, and then prepare a withering response to the offending unit. The end of consolidating into new combat breathes all sorts of new life into the IG.

I'm amused that your thread title is about how you're
afraid of morale

Augustus,

I have to say: I think you're totally and completely off-base on this particular issue (and I mean that in a loving way).

I think you had one bad game and it has given you a false impression.

The new CC morale rules and the removal of consolidation into CC are the *best* possible things that could ever happen to the IG.

You made a critical mistake, and that was charging the Black Templars with your Rough Riders at that particular point.


With guard, you should have moved a 'speed bump' unit into position (out of cover) so the Templar unit couldn't move and engage who they wanted in CC.

Then *because* of the new morale CC rules, you could be absolutely assured that the Templar unit would not be locked in combat in your next shooting phase.

By putting your 'speed bump' unit in the proper place (out of cover) you also ensure that if you do want to charge with your RRs next turn, you won't be doing so through cover.


IG *LOVE* the fact that enemy units almost never stay locked in combat and cannot consolidate into another CC.

Do not count on wiping out enemy armies in the first few turns of the game anymore with IG, since the increase in cover saves means your early-game firepower has reduced effectiveness.

However, if you set your battleline up correctly and use 'speed bump' units to ensure that the enemy only engages one unit at a time you will find that you have waaaaaay more 'late game' shooting with the guard because once the enemy hits your lines (if you're playing right) it's not 'game over' it's 'game has just begun'.


P.S. I am a massively huge fan of the new combat resolution rules as they actually make you think about whether or not you can *beat* the opposing unit in CC before charging in. There's no more 'charge in and tie up the enemy for a few turns' crap anymore. You as a general have to look at the situation and know that your unit is going to be able to beat the opponent in CC or it just isn't worth charging in.

(I really like the solution Yakface posed earlier to compare the kill point ratios, I almost can't believe that didn't make the book.)

I couldn't help but laugh when I read this, you mean to suggest they should have included a system wherein the more expensive elite units you have in your army the more each unit is worth in terms of kill points? Oh wait, Victory Points already did that.

edit: I should clarify, not a dig at you, A dig at GW because I can't see a good reason for KP

Drunkspleen wrote:

(I really like the solution Yakface posed earlier to compare the kill point ratios, I almost can't believe that didn't make the book.)

I couldn't help but laugh when I read this, you mean to suggest they should have included a system wherein the more expensive elite units you have in your army the more each unit is worth in terms of kill points? Oh wait, Victory Points already did that.

edit: I should clarify, not a dig at you, A dig at GW because I can't see a good reason for KP

No I believe the idea that Yakface offered up was devide the total kp earned by the total kp that the opponent had the start of the game.

ie. Player a earns 5 kp but player b had 15 total kp. So player a would have 0.34(Rounded up).
Now player earns 4 kp but player a had 8 total kp. So player b have 0.5.
So Player B wins.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The Kill Point rule in the book looks like it was thought up in about 2 minutes and put in to fill a space.

I suppose there must be a balancing aspect I haven't understood.

Or perhaps not.

I think it's a balancing for the other two mission type , to avoid player useing lots of small units to contest objectives,which would be silly to play .