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It might still be too early to call it, but it seems that some builds are already pretty frightening with 5th edition.

As we all know, many of the old top tier staples, whilst maybe not totally dead, are looking less shiny. (shooty nidzilla, codex falcon etc) Some armies are already making a fearsome reputation in the new edition (sisters perhaps? Black templars seem to have some nice builds. Horde orks are of course something everyone needs to consider when making a competitive list)

And of course there are a couple of armies that struggle with the new rules (the guard in particular seem to have it pretty bad just now) and whilst you can make something relatively competitive from most lists, armies like tau probably need a cookie cutter to be competitive.

So is anyone brave enough to outline their view of the tiers as they appear to be just now? I'm just curious because as yet, I've not played enough different builds to make more than inspired guesses.

And they are (I know I've missed a few, it's due to lack of 5th ed experience...

Tier 1: Ork horde, Black Templar LR spam, Almost anything else LR spam, Sisters...

Tier 2: Ork speed freak, Marine podding, mech marine, guard drop troops, eldar with eldrad/avatar, Tau (hammerhead and fireknife spam)...

Tier 3: ...


There may have to be more tiers, you may find my selections woefully lacking/plain wrong. I'm asking because I had a good handle on 4th, but I'm pretty hazy on what 5th has done.


DISCLAIMER: I know there are (very solid) arguments about there not being such a thing as a tier system at all in reality and that it is merely the product of internet speculation and current trends. I also know that player skill makes more difference than army selection. In spite of that it's often fun to discuss (from a purely theoretical standpoint) which army builds are naturally stronger/better/whatever than others. There is always a perception in fantasy (where most of my knowledge lies) that if you hand one player the new vampire counts book, and the other player the ogres book, almost anything that follows will see an advantage to the vampire player.
So this is just for fun.

Sisters? Tier 1? No, certainly not.

Why not Tier 1 for Sisters? Is there a particularly bad matchup for them?

Note, I've not really been able to identify the real winners with 5th edition yet, but I have seen some very competitive builds and games utelizing the Witch Hunters codex.

Blood Angels are tier 1 again IMO.

I don't think the tiers are nearly as clear cut as they were in 4th.

I'm not sold on drop guard-they lose 1/3 of their games automatically.

Chaos is stronger than ever because their troops are actually useful.

Mech Eldar is still good too.

Assault Marine spam BA are great.

There are no tiers in 40k.

Man up and stop sucking with your army, and you won't have a substandard army any longer.

Thanks Stelek, that was helpful.

I have a lot of respect for your opinions but if you'd read to the bottom of my post, you'd have seen that I am perfectly aware there are those who don't believe there are tiers in 40k. It's not a position I'm totally against.

This thread is not that discussion.

As for sucking with my army etc? Going to let that one slide, you don't know anything about me or what/how I play.

If you have something to add to a fun discussion of the relative strengths of builds in 5th as they stand, please contribute. If you do not believe tiers are applicable, please move on to another thread.

As an aside, I believe sisters are up at the top, they have the tools and flexibility to deal with pretty much everything. And you seem to be able to cram a lot into their list at any given points value. I'm also sold on BA, dante in particular seems nuts, I'd put them tier 1 as well.

I've only heard guard dropping is good in 5th. It seemed to work really well in 4th and I can't see a lot that's changed to make them any worse in 5th. Please correct me if I'm not right there.

I wasn't talking about YOU sucking. I was saying in general, if a player feels their army isn't top tier because they can't just point and click their way to victory, the problem is not the army. The problem is them.

I'd say there are stronger point and click builds that are different from 4th, how about that? I'd also say there are more subtle builds that require more than point and click to make work.

nevermind

Top Tier:
Orks
Witch Hunters
Nids
Marines
CSMs

Middle Tier:
Marines
Dark Eldar
Necrons
Kroot
Eldar
Deamon Legions

Bottom Tier:
Deamon hunters
Tau
Imperial Guard

Yes. I have marines in their twice. Some of them are top tier some are second tier. That said, 40k is balanced enough that a good general will pretty much beat a bad general regardless of army but there are some run away better armies in a good generals hands.

Anyway, this rating is if you take all the mission and deployment types into consideration. For example IG are probably one of the best armies in the game if you removed KPs.

Pete

Huh? That was one strange list Pdeflorio, I dont think that many people will agree with you.

What usually makes or breaks tier armies are the specific tournament rulings on certain things, so it might shift a little bit. Also, the enviorment will decide alot for you, in some enviroments there are just too much anti stuff for you to play certain armies. But overall the old standards still apply imo.

Nidz, Eldar, Orks at the top (most by not too large margin).
Daemons and pure DH at the bottom. (by a little more margin)
The rest somewhere in the middle.

Lol. Well, your prety much agreeing with me!!!

I'm just going on the 50 or so games I've played thus far in 5th. Plus I own, deamons, CSMs, SOBs, IG, Nids and Eldar and have been playing those primarily.

I haven't played against everything yet (no kroot, drak eldar or deamon hunters bu everything else) so some are more of a guess based on about 20 yrs of experience, and a crap ton of GTs :p

No but seriously, Orks and nids are no brainers. Witchunters are really that good. CSMs have already shown they can be dominant. Black templars are really good under the new rules, as are Death wing dark angels.

I think the new marines are going to be really solid, but that's based on speculation.

Eldar are really good but I've been playing eldar religiously since the day the codex came out in 2nd ed, and trust me they are not what they were in 4th or early 3rd. You now have to run special characters to be competitive at top levels which immediately puts you close to second tier as a lot of tournies don't allow special characters. The Eldrad / Avatar foot slogger list still lives, but the mech list is largely dead with the death of the falcon, nerf of the harlequins and renewed importance of the troop choice. (I'm sure a version of the Eldrad flying buncker, Dire avengers and the jetbike council exists but hasn;t quite been locked down yet.

Imp Guard simply can't win KPs against a lot of armies. So they are bottom too. DH are obviously crap.

I could see Tau being negotiable as 2nd tier army as they will literally rip apart some top tier builds but I just don't see them beating orks.

As for daemons, I've had some really mixed results. I honestly think most people haven't played against 3 soul grinders. I'm not a big walker fan but man these guys own. Also, I've run an Epidemius list a couple times and everybody I have faced just can't stop talking about how broken he is. I agree. Once he gets going, the army is ridiculous.

@ pdeflorio: I find most of what you are saying just flat out wrong.

Notwithstanding my own belief that there are no damn tiers in the first place...

Tau own Orks. They also received some of the best upgrades in 5th.

Nids are not what they used to be.

Orks scare scrubs. Not saying you are one, but if they aren't a shooty build I'm not scared.

Your opinion of Mech Eldar being dead is laughable at best.

Imp Guard when built correctly will table most so-called 'top tier' armies. Gee, you got 12 KP's...and your'e dead.

If I lose all of my games at Vegas, DH are crap. If I win 3, they aren't crap. If I win 5, everyone I play should get smacked with a bit of trout.

Soul Grinders are great until Eldar (Dark or not), Tau, Nids, Black Templar, new Smurfs (not out yet but I'm aware), Orks, Sisters, or IG show up...wait a minute that's everybody on the block AND their mother that crushes grinders down.

Lol. Stelek you and I really never see eye to eye on tactics and army design :p

That said how do tau hold objectives??? Granted I've only played 4 games against tua in 5th but as far as I could see they really have no way to push someone off and objective, and it's very difficult for them to get troops deep into an enemies deployment zone. Same thing with KPs they give up a ton of them. And while I agree they get awesome awesome wargear like disruptor pods, most of these can easily be countered by something like a deepstriking melta gun.

Nids - sure they are a big step down from what they were but mass mini bugs and a couple big guys like maxed out regen bunker fexes, and a bunch og genestealers with feeder tendrils are really a strong list.

Orks - Is there any other way to run orks???

Mech eldar are not any where close to as strong they were when Falcons and harlies were king. Transports not beign able to tank shock effectively onto objectives in the end game really hurts them. Plus the loss of shooting from transports is a major step back. To your point the wavserpent is now as survivable as falcon, but I've run lists with 8 grav tanks in 5th and it's problem is that it doesn;t kill much. As soon as it comes to holding objectives you have a problem. If the game goes two extra turns you pretty much always loose. I do love the out flanking scrop waveserpent though!!!!

Imp Guard... It's very hard to table someone who doesn't want to be tabled. I'm pretty sure I've never been tabled by guard. Ever. And I've never been at a GT or Indy GT that they have ever won. I although I know they did well at an Adpeticon once a couple years ago, which is like 5th without KPs. So it would make sense.

Good luck with DHs. I know Brian Fines used to do well with DHs on the GT circuit but I'm pretty sure he never placed top 3.

Soul Grinders - I was honestly surprised they performed so well too. I painted them up and used them because I liked the model. They have far exceeded my expectation. 3 AV 13 ground vehicles are tough to deal with. You can;t spike them in in hth like a tank, and you have to kill them to deal with them becasue they ignore all the other results.

Anyway, I stick to my guns. I don;t mean them to be in any order but I do think my tier one, two and 3 group is about right. I honestly haven't lost much yet in 5th against dead hard players, so I must have something right.

Pete

Nice rebuttal Pete. I pretty much agree with your rankings besides Crons who even with 3 monolith spam have slid to t3. They need fnp soon. Thiers always the exception to the rule with real good players knowing and playing thier armies with perfection but overall acurate.

Pdeflorio wrote:Lol. Stelek you and I really never see eye to eye on tactics and army design :p

You are one of many.

Stelek wrote:@ pdeflorio: I find most of what you are saying just flat out wrong.

Notwithstanding my own belief that there are no damn tiers in the first place...

Tau own Orks. They also received some of the best upgrades in 5th.

Nids are not what they used to be.

Orks scare scrubs. Not saying you are one, but if they aren't a shooty build I'm not scared.

Your opinion of Mech Eldar being dead is laughable at best.

Imp Guard when built correctly will table most so-called 'top tier' armies. Gee, you got 12 KP's...and your'e dead.

If I lose all of my games at Vegas, DH are crap. If I win 3, they aren't crap. If I win 5, everyone I play should get smacked with a bit of trout.

Soul Grinders are great until Eldar (Dark or not), Tau, Nids, Black Templar, new Smurfs (not out yet but I'm aware), Orks, Sisters, or IG show up...wait a minute that's everybody on the block AND their mother that crushes grinders down.

Noobs....

My opinions on 5th ed trends:

Guard - This could be the best or worst edition ever for them. I feel that most IG players are still in panic mode, and once they get over it, they will find that they have some solid options they may not have thought of.

Chaos - Stays solid, but the plauge marine FNP nerf makes them easier to deal with.

Orks - I'm with Stelek. They look scary, but are easily containable. The fact that most ork builds are designed to minimize kill points gives over the advantage of they can deal with only a few threats at a time. These builds actually become weaker in a target rich environment.

Tau - Got a boost, definately an army to watch out for.

Space marines - will decide after the new codex is out.

And that is about all I have played against so far.

Pdeflorio wrote:Lol. Stelek you and I really never see eye to eye on tactics and army design :p

Well that's a good thing. I do thank you for providing Blackmoor a chance to cheapshot me, he and I relish our bonding moments provided by others.

Pdeflorio wrote:That said how do tau hold objectives??? Granted I've only played 4 games against tua in 5th but as far as I could see they really have no way to push someone off and objective, and it's very difficult for them to get troops deep into an enemies deployment zone. Same thing with KPs they give up a ton of them. And while I agree they get awesome awesome wargear like disruptor pods, most of these can easily be countered by something like a deepstriking melta gun.

How do tau hold objectives?

Hmmm, let's see:

Devilfish.
Piranha's.
Crisis Suits.
Pathfinders scouting.
Kroot infiltrating.

Tau give up a ton of KP's? Only if you run drones (only place you have to is on Piranhas) do they give up more than anyone else, actually.

Pdeflorio wrote:Nids - sure they are a big step down from what they were but mass mini bugs and a couple big guys like maxed out regen bunker fexes, and a bunch og genestealers with feeder tendrils are really a strong list.

A small step down, a very small one. Regen fexes are as always humorous, please run them.

Bunch of stealers with feeder tendrils...wow that's pretty insightful there.

Pdeflorio wrote:Orks - Is there any other way to run orks???

There are tons of ways to run Orks.

Most players won't run anything but horde, and the few that run shooty run them incorrectly. So I'm not worried about the handful of players that have figured out other ways to run Orks, I think the odds of me running into them are rather small.

Pdeflorio wrote:Mech eldar are not any where close to as strong they were when Falcons and harlies were king. Transports not beign able to tank shock effectively onto objectives in the end game really hurts them. Plus the loss of shooting from transports is a major step back. To your point the wavserpent is now as survivable as falcon, but I've run lists with 8 grav tanks in 5th and it's problem is that it doesn;t kill much. As soon as it comes to holding objectives you have a problem. If the game goes two extra turns you pretty much always loose. I do love the out flanking scrop waveserpent though!!!!

Mech Eldar are different, but they are stronger. See, the army you speak of was a point and click army run primarily by sucktastic "generals" who wouldn't know a tactic from a toothpick. Harlies and Falcons were never king over anything but Scrubland.

Loss of shooting from transports? Why do you need to move 12" to fire? Get used to moving 6". Maybe 8 grav tanks isn't exactly a good place to be with Eldar, eh?

Holding objectives is difficult? With a tank not vulnerable to melta fire? Please, more "advice".

Outflanking Scorps in Wave Serpents are good because deploying 12", moving 12" and armor arcs in 40K make side moves on turn X (whenever you show up) so awesome? And those scorps are pretty amusing, everyone knows where they are going to be able to assault so they never do.

Pdeflorio wrote:Imp Guard... It's very hard to table someone who doesn't want to be tabled. I'm pretty sure I've never been tabled by guard. Ever. And I've never been at a GT or Indy GT that they have ever won. I although I know they did well at an Adpeticon once a couple years ago, which is like 5th without KPs. So it would make sense.

Most guard armies aren't run properly. They're built poorly and thus do poorly. Even the 'good' armies I've seen aren't 'good' they just don't suck as bad as battleforce armies.

Not sure how it's hard to table someone (wait, who WANTS to be tabled?) since I've been doing it for a decade at the GT's. Virtually every game ends in a tabling.

But I guess at the GT's the competition is somehow less, and people want to be tabled so they just drop games to make my epeen larger.

Pdeflorio wrote:Good luck with DHs. I know Brian Fines used to do well with DHs on the GT circuit but I'm pretty sure he never placed top 3.

Top at a GW GT is an oxymoron. Best Kisser, Second Best Kisser, Third Best Kisser? Man now I'll win and have to eat those words.

Pdeflorio wrote:Soul Grinders - I was honestly surprised they performed so well too. I painted them up and used them because I liked the model. They have far exceeded my expectation. 3 AV 13 ground vehicles are tough to deal with. You can;t spike them in in hth like a tank, and you have to kill them to deal with them becasue they ignore all the other results.

I'd be surprised too. Then I'd chastise my opponents for allowing them to stay around.

3 AV13 vehicles are definitely not tough to deal with, not in a list that is vulnerable to small arms fire.

Maybe you noticed people don't run 3 predators with POTM and nothing else (though they DO run Vindicators with it, even though they too suck) and "win", but I guess if coming in second in every game is worth 3 soulgrinders then I'd take them too.

Who hand to hands predators? They ignore weapon destroyed and immobilized results? Really? This must be those new "tactics" I don't know about.

I find it interesting you say Demons suck then go on to say Soulgrinders are great.

Does that mean they are the best of the worst? What an honor.

Pdeflorio wrote:Anyway, I stick to my guns. I don;t mean them to be in any order but I do think my tier one, two and 3 group is about right. I honestly haven't lost much yet in 5th against dead hard players, so I must have something right.

Sadly, the super squirter you are using on me does not impress.

I don't think you are playing dead hard players, really.

Templar have moved up to Tier 1(At least horde footslogging and LRC builds), Eldar are still tier 1, just not the Falcon build. Ork hordes could be tier 1. SM will be, probably, and CSM gunlines are also Tier 1. SB, maybe.

Tier 2, probably the other SM chapters, along with Nid armies and LR GK lists(Maybe). In fact, most competitive builds of all armies are here, if not Tier 1. Tier 3, well, you just suck at list making to go there.

People will learn to fear the new Space Marines.

Mark my words.

I'm not buying 6 Black Reach boxes to satisfy my need for Orks I don't want or need, ya know.

Imp Guard when built correctly will table most so-called 'top tier' armies. Gee, you got 12 KP's...and you're dead.

Simultaneously abrasive and inspirational.
I'll just need to tweak my list until I crack that correct build. Until then, yes KP have nerfed Guard's chances hard.

Stelek wrote:People will learn to fear the new Space Marines.

Mark my words.

I'm not buying 6 Black Reach boxes to satisfy my need for Orks I don't want or need, ya know.

Quoted for truth.
Im just getting something like 3 of those boxes as a start, but will probably base it on the new improved LRs with larger transport capacity.

Mech eldar are not any where close to as strong they were when Falcons and harlies were king. Transports not beign able to tank shock effectively onto objectives in the end game really hurts them. Plus the loss of shooting from transports is a major step back. To your point the wavserpent is now as survivable as falcon, but I've run lists with 8 grav tanks in 5th and it's problem is that it doesn;t kill much. As soon as it comes to holding objectives you have a problem. If the game goes two extra turns you pretty much always loose. I do love the out flanking scrop waveserpent though!!!!

You surely run the wrong list. Mech Eldar played correctly is still tier 1.

People will learn to fear the new Space Marines.

Not sure about this. Space Marines are the jack of all trades, but the master of none.

Stelek wrote:There are no tiers in 40k.

Man up and stop sucking with your army, and you won't have a substandard army any longer.

Love it adding it as a sig!

@wuestenfux: True, and then you don't face a vanilla smurf army, you face a Chapter led by a monster that compares favorably to the Deceiver, Eldrad, Maugan Ra, etc for less points but does more.

Yes, the marines are coming. Fear.

Yes, the marines are coming. Fear.

Man, I would like to believe you.

Ok, MY Marines are coming. Got milk?

wuestenfux wrote:
You surely run the wrong list. Mech Eldar played correctly is still tier 1.

Of what variety? The pure-vehicle flavor, the bikey flavor, or the hybrid-with-infantry-for-your-home-objectives flavor?