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Reading the entries for the special characters Chapter Tactics, Vulkan has a significant difference in his text.

Every other SC's Chapter Tactics are worded like Kosarro Khan's: "Every unit with Combat Tacitcs exchanges it for X..."

Vulkan's Chapter Tactics are worded: "All units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all Thunder Hammers in your army count as Master-Crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns and multimeltas count as twin-linked"

So do units that don't have the Combat Tactics benefit from Vulkan's Chapter Tactics? If I ally my Sisters into his army, do they get the nasty flamers (oh yeah)?

My heart tells me "No," but RaW seems to be telling me another story. I am unsure.

If this was Privateer, I'd say it's clearly a Yes.

I don't have the book in front of me. Based on your description, it sounds like it's RAW, but don't be surprised if someone a) refuses to play a friendly game against your or b) sock-jacks you in a tourney for doing it. I'm not advocating sock-jacking.

Sounds like it's okay by RAW, probably isn't RAI, and would be pretty abusive.

Vulkan's ability is meant to apply to those without Combat Tactics - Dreadnoughts, for example, are meant to get Twin-Linked Multi-Meltas, and Twin-Linked Heavy Flamers.

By RAW, yes. Allied units get a massive benefit from allying with Vulkan's army - especially the flamer and metla heavy Sisters...

If I was a sister I would improve my aim too if some green marine came along and claimed he was my superior at burning the heretic.

stjohn70 wrote:Reading the entries for the special characters Chapter Tactics, Vulkan has a significant difference in his text.

Every other SC's Chapter Tactics are worded like Kosarro Khan's: "Every unit with Combat Tacitcs exchanges it for X..."

Vulkan's Chapter Tactics are worded: "All units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all Thunder Hammers in your army count as Master-Crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns and multimeltas count as twin-linked"

So do units that don't have the Combat Tactics benefit from Vulkan's Chapter Tactics? If I ally my Sisters into his army, do they get the nasty flamers (oh yeah)?

My heart tells me "No," but RaW seems to be telling me another story. I am unsure.

No unit that is not in your army => chosen from Codex SM FOC
lose combat tactics => must have combat tactics before.
but:
Instead => important part of the special rule => youre right this is for the vehicles and walkers.

summary: all units ,chosen from codex SM to build your army,lose combat tactics.All your models in THIS army get instead bonuses
for their weapons.
So IMHo no ally can benefit from vulkans special rule.

I know "your army" sounds like the whole force affected. :S

But: I have a codex since I'm using a german dex the wording is different but also sometimes more precise.

What you asked for is a difference. In my dex all SC got the same text.
"when your army..." > "...exchange all units combat tactics with..."

Maybe vulkans entry differs by changing wargear,not tactics?

I don't think that's the case at all 1hadhq. Going from the English version that I have. I'm pretty sure that it was worded that way to include vehicle weapons: your dreadnought heavy flamers get twin-linking, but it doesn't have Combat Tactics.

I agree that it may very well be against intent that Allies can benefit from He'stan's ability, but according to the actual rules - they can.

That's debateable, given that the word 'instead' must be ignored for that interpretation to be certain.

Instead implies substitution, so if the unit has not given up Combat Tactics it cannot benefit from Vulkan's rules.

I disagree, there is a penalty (all units in army lose Combat Tactics), and instead of the penalty there is a bonus (all of X weapons gain Y).
Both sentences, which are separate statements, declare the "whole army" as the affected units.

Which ever way this gets decided, just know that I will never play against your Vulkanized Sisters John ol' buddy. I don't think my heart could take it.

so wait, im confused, does vulkan give all NON combat tactics units twin linked flamers etc.
if so i could do a split army with vulkan giving my flamers/multi-meltas twinlinked and shrike giving my army fleet?
i have looked over the codex (@ LGWS) but this thread has just confused me

cheers,
gutteridge

[edit spelling]

Gutteridge wrote:so wait, im confused, does vulkan give all NON combat tactics units twin linked flamers etc.
if so i could do a split army with vulkan giving my flamers/multi-meltas twinlinked and shrike giving my army fleet?
i have looked over the codex (@ LGWS) but this thread has just confused me

cheers,
gutteridge

[edit spelling]

I would say no to this one.

I would say yes to Sisters, especially in a normal sized game. That ability seems nasty for Apoc sized armies.

Sorry.

Only ONE Special character can give HIS chapter tactics to ALL marines in HIS army.
His army consists of ALL marines in ONE FOC.
Allies are not in the FOC of a SC.
With 2 SC,you have to choose which chapter tactic is used in the game.The chosen tactic cannot be switched in the game.

1hadhq wrote:Sorry.

Only ONE Special character can give HIS chapter tactics to ALL marines in HIS army.
His army consists of ALL marines in ONE FOC.
Allies are not in the FOC of a SC.

First, nowhere in Vulkan's special rules does it state marines.

Second, I would love to know which FOC your allies are in/on if they aren't on the SC's.

InquisitorFabius wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Sorry.

Only ONE Special character can give HIS chapter tactics to ALL units in HIS army.
His army consists of ALL marines in ONE FOC.
Allies are not in the FOC of a SC.

First, nowhere in Vulkan's special rules does it state marines.

Second, I would love to know which FOC your allies are in/on if they aren't on the SC's.

changed marines to units to fit better.
Allies always use their own FOC.
Vulkan is taken from C: SM. any IG/inquisition needs their own HQ+2x troops from their own dex.
So no ally is at anytime in vulkans FOC.
The only unit to be in the same FOC is the LotD.

1hadhq wrote:
Allies always use their own FOC.
Vulkan is taken from C: SM. any IG/inquisition needs their own HQ+2x troops from their own dex.
So no ally is at anytime in vulkans FOC.
The only unit to be in the same FOC is the LotD.

Using Codex WH as an example.

According to page 25 of the WH codex, they are added to an existing Imperial army in the form of 0-1 HQ, 0-1 Elite, 0-2 Troop, 0-1 FA. I see no mention of them being their own FOC. It states that the compulsory 1 HQ and 2 Troops must be from the 'parent' list, not the WH list.

Gutteridge wrote:so wait, im confused, does vulkan give all NON combat tactics units twin linked flamers etc.
if so i could do a split army with vulkan giving my flamers/multi-meltas twinlinked and shrike giving my army fleet?

Absolutely not.

Only a single character's Chapter Tactics apply, chosen at the start of the battle. With Shrike, every unit that had Combat Tactics loses it, gaining Fleet instead. Vulkan takes away every unit's Combat Tactics rule (if applicable) and makes all Flamer and Melta weapons twin-linked, as well as making all Thunder Hammers Master-Crafted.

The first and second half of Vulkan's rule have nothing to do with each other. Any unit that has Combat Tactics loses it. Then, any and all Meltas, Flamers and Thunder Hammers are improved - not just weapons used by units that had Combat Tactics, and not just Marines, either.

InquisitorFabius wrote:



Using Codex WH as an example.

According to page 25 of the WH codex, they are added to an existing Imperial army in the form of 0-1 HQ, 0-1 Elite, 0-2 Troop, 0-1 FA. I see no mention of them being their own FOC. It states that the compulsory 1 HQ and 2 Troops must be from the 'parent' list, not the WH list.

Sorry.NO.

WH are added from their own codex TO a existing list.
Your parent list is fully completed Before you add them.
I would doubt a SC "waits" with changing combat tactics until his allies arrive.
How should any "allied" unit profit from Space Marine training and tactics?
Maybe the age of the WH dex "leaks" you this opportunity.
I'm sure its not legal any game.
and friends may not want to play this list.

No. They are added to the exisiting Force Organization chart, making them fully a part of that army.

Does this change the fact that your "parent" list is complete legal before adding them?
Does this transfer SM chapter tactics to any non-SM model?

If i disagree again will you bring the DH as next example?
Same way to be allied and theyre SM!

Maybe the fact that Inquisition codices are no longer available (in germany) will stop any ideas of "transferred" chapter tactics. :S

Your entire Force Organization chart is your army, not just your mandatory choices. Or are you saying that only the madatory choice on the chart would benefit from his rules and the others, even if they're Space Marines, would not?

Ghaz wrote:Your entire Force Organization chart is your army, not just your mandatory choices. Or are you saying that only the madatory choice on the chart would benefit from his rules and the others, even if they're Space Marines, would not?

I'm saying that you cannot use old 4th ed ally rules with new 5th ed special rules (chapter tactics) to "create" a monster.
Chapter tactics are legal for all your choices from Codex SM.Their not legal for any other dex.
You cannot transfer weapon rules from Codex SM to other codices.If it was that easy,any other codex using the same wargear
could get the rules from the new dex.

I don't even know where to start with that.

InquisitorFabius wrote:I don't even know where to start with that.

example: you managed to combine vulkan he'stan with DH.
1)Your inquisitor buys a Land raider.Would this land raider use the codex SM rules?
2)Your grey knight termie squad chooses thunderhammer +stormshield.Would they benefit from codex SM rules?

1)No?
2)No?

Haven't we just transferred the chapter tactics from codex SM to codex DH?
Now we could NOT benefit from more transport capacity and 3+ invul saves?

IMHO rules are only used IN a codex. Maybe the wording of GW in vulkans chapter tactics is provoking to be "creative" .

You're making up your own rules. Allies are a part of your army, whetrher you like it or not.

Ghaz wrote:You're making up your own rules. Allies are a part of your army, whether you like it or not.

Didn't we have a topic?

I don't think it is "what 1hadhq likes or not" .

The change of the example from inquisitor Fabiuss WH to DH doesn't change content.
To question the effect of a alliance SM/SC+inquisition-dex is not making my own rules.

Yes, you are making up your own rules. The real rules are that the entire Force Organization Chart is one army no matter what codex they're drawn from. So far you've not provided one rule to back up your claims to the contrary. The only reason you've given is "... you cannot use old 4th ed ally rules with new 5th ed special rules (chapter tactics) to "create" a monster." which is you deciding that you can't do it. Provide an actual rule to support your claims or else all it is you making up your own rules.

sorry,I have done a example to show: you CANNOT transfer rules between codices.
No way to transfer from SM to inquisition.No way to transfer from Inquisition to SM.
Every single model will stick to the rules from its orginating codex.
It doesn't matter if you pack a model as ally into a army.

Can your DH/WH take any rules from codex SM? NO.
Can the SM take any rules from codex DH/WH? NO.

Is there ANY rule needed to prevent your nonsense of rules transfer?
NO

Is there ANY rule to allow your nonsense of rules transfer?

And again, you still don't have any support for your claims. Allies can use the rules from an army by the very fact that they're in the army in the first place. So where does it say that the rules for an army don't apply to units that are allies? They don't. Allies are a part of the army and use the rules that apply to that army, period. You can keep on posting your hypotheticals, but you don't have a single rule to back up your claims that allies are not a part of the army. Unless you can actually support that position, all you're doing is wasting our time.

=I= EDITED BY THE MODQUISITION =I=

grey_death : Don't make personal attacks simply because you can't get your point across.

1had... seriously. Ghaz is right and you are so not. Just because you can't equate equipment from one list to another does not mean that one codex's special rules cannot effect the other.

For example, under the old Space Marine codex, it was legal to take Grey Knight Terminators, and they would Deep Strike using Lysander's special rule.

Stop trying to use obscure references and illogical loops... and personal attacks.