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(Goes into Army Lists as it's a listbuilding loophole)

p128:

Where an option states that you may exchange one weapon 'and/or' another, you may replace either, neither, or both provided you pay the stated cost

(emphasis added)

Sooo, in the Chapter Master entry on p131 says (in part):

Replace bolt pistol and/or chainsword with:
- a boltgun....x pts
- a storm bolter....x pts
- a combi-flamer, -melta, or -plasma....x pts
- etc
- etc
- a power fist....x pts
- a relic blade....x pts
- a thunder hammer

So I'm going to replace NEITHER of my bolt pistol and chainsword with a boltgun. AND a power fist. AND a thunder hammer. AND a storm bolter.

Sure it gets expensive, but you too can have a Chapter Master with bolt pistol, chainsword, storm bolter, power sword and storm shield.

Someone tell me how this doesn't happen?

Viperion

Um why would you though?

Storm Bolter + Storm Shield for on the way in, Power Weapon + Storm Shield in combat, or Power Weapon + Chainsword (+1A)...

Makes them expensive, but REALLY flexible

Viperion

I'm confused as to why a Space Marine chapter master wouldn't be really flexible.

this is hardly a slowed loophole in the new SM codex. are you really going to spend that much of a HQ choice that will rarely use that much equipment? if you youll have more problems than an expensive captain.

vulkan giving WH allies TL Flamers and meltas, and gate of infinity with locator beacon, now those are slowed loopholes.

also this should not be in the army list section

Its an interpretation. The list of options gives the cost for replacing chain sword and or bolt pistol The UNSTATED cost for replacing neither is 0 points. Page 128 allows you to take that option. Page 131 shows costs IF YOU REPLACE not if you add other weapons in addition.

That's how I would interp.

i am confused how your reading " and/ or " as "and, or, and neither?"

Brother Condon wrote:i am confused how your reading " and/ or " as "and, or, and neither?"

You didn't read the post did you? He even gave a page number where it came from. :/

Storm Bolter + Storm Shield for on the way in, Power Weapon + Storm Shield in combat, or Power Weapon + Chainsword (+1A)...

You can't do that though. If you'd fire the storm bolter then charge into HtH you can't change over to say you are now using a pistol. You're stuck with the weapon you already declared you are using that turn, for the entire turn. It's been the same with Chaos Marines who have bolters and bp/ccws.

Swordbreaker wrote:

Storm Bolter + Storm Shield for on the way in, Power Weapon + Storm Shield in combat, or Power Weapon + Chainsword (+1A)...

You can't do that though. If you'd fire the storm bolter then charge into HtH you can't change over to say you are now using a pistol. You're stuck with the weapon you already declared you are using that turn, for the entire turn. It's been the same with Chaos Marines who have bolters and bp/ccws.

I can get how that works with Chaos Marines, who couldn't charge if they shot their bolters(rapid fire weapons), but I'm having trouble finding where in the rulebook it says you fight in close combat with the weapon you used in the shooting phase. What page is that on?

Where does it state that Swordbreaker? I haven't read that anywhere.

This is a nifty trick, though I do agree that exploiting it gets rapidy super expensive. The WYSIWYG results are amusing though.

If they want to waste that many points on a single model, and go through all the conversions to field this mountain-of-weapons-that-walks-like-a-man, more power to them. It'll be amusing to see the Marine legs with a bunch of weapons and upgrades piled atop them, since there wasn't room for arms or a torso.

i think your interpretation is jacked up. I dont think interpreting 'neither' as allowing you to just buy items at the swap prices is reasonable.

The points costs for upgrade items are normalized to include the cost of the item you are upgrading from that is automatically included in the model cost.

This is how i would read the either/neither/both rule:

Either: you may replace chainsword or pistol with 1 of the following...

Both: you may replace chainsword AND bolt pistol with any 2 of the following...

Neither: you may elect none of these upgrades and keep you pistol and chainsword

Count Bonchula is correct.

The only thing 'slowed' about this 'loophole' is believing it exists.

Count Bonchula wrote:i think your interpretation is jacked up. I dont think interpreting 'neither' as allowing you to just buy items at the swap prices is reasonable.

The points costs for upgrade items are normalized to include the cost of the item you are upgrading from that is automatically included in the model cost.

This is how i would read the either/neither/both rule:

Either: you may replace chainsword or pistol with 1 of the following...

Both: you may replace chainsword AND bolt pistol with any 2 of the following...

Neither: you may elect none of these upgrades and keep you pistol and chainsword

No, the man is right, it does mean that you can get billions of weapons for your guy, just in the same way that you can make a vehicle that shoots 4xd3 large blast str 7 AP 3 rending shots at 48" if you optimize a custom tank.

But then no one will play with you, and judges in tourneys will just say no. And you will be booted out into the rain along with the shattered remains of your uber hero, and you will cry, until you realize that you are crying in the middle of a busy street and you have caused several cars to swerve out of the way, causing a 13 1/2 car pill up. You will then be sent to jail where you will spend the rest of your life writing out math-hammer equations on the cell walls as big men with deep voices say "your mah little puppy naow". And you will wonder if it was worth it.


That, or someone (like me) will bring a vindicare assassin, and punch a turbo round right through the skull of your 300+ point hero. And laugh at you as you tearfully remove the guy who, after hours of converting, lasted just 3 rounds in the tournament.

I agree with Bronchula too, but Shrike wins the thread.

Or Tellion since he can pick out targets, has BS 6, shoots twice, rends, pins, at 36". By the way this guy rocks I took down the night bringer with him today (he did 3 wounds and his 4 sniper scouts inflicted 2 wounds, over 2 turns of shooting). Made his points back for the next 3+ games!


Oh and I agree, Count Bonchula is correct.

Count Bonchula may have won the thread,

but Nurglitch had the best line:

"The only thing 'slowed' about this 'loophole' is believing it exists."

I couldn't care less about the loophole/not a loophole/bad wording, I still want to know where it says that you fight assault with the weapon you shot with.

Viperion wrote:(Goes into Army Lists as it's a listbuilding loophole)

p128:

Where an option states that you may exchange one weapon 'and/or' another, you may replace either, neither, or both provided you pay the stated cost

(emphasis added)

Sooo, in the Chapter Master entry on p131 says (in part):

Replace bolt pistol and/or chainsword with:
- a boltgun....x pts
- a storm bolter....x pts
- a combi-flamer, -melta, or -plasma....x pts
- etc
- etc
- a power fist....x pts
- a relic blade....x pts
- a thunder hammer

So I'm going to replace NEITHER of my bolt pistol and chainsword with a boltgun. AND a power fist. AND a thunder hammer. AND a storm bolter.

Sure it gets expensive, but you too can have a Chapter Master with bolt pistol, chainsword, storm bolter, power sword and storm shield.

Someone tell me how this doesn't happen?

Viperion

It isn't a loophole hole - you cannot read properly and are putting the wrong emphasis and suggesting something that isn't in the rules.

You can replace one weapon, or both or neither. If you decide to replace neither you are not purchasing anything therefore there is nothing to replace. Sheesh. Not bad rule writing - poor English comprehension.

derek wrote:I couldn't care less about the loophole/not a loophole/bad wording, I still want to know where it says that you fight assault with the weapon you shot with.

I doesn't, you do have worry about what you are equipped with. On page 42, Close Combat Weapons, just worry about if you are equipped with normal or special weapons. The only time, according to the rulebook, where you really have a choice is where you have two different special weapons, and then you have to choose what special weapon to use that turn.

If from above, you choose to replace the bolt pistol and chainsword with a power fist and thunder hammer, you would have to choose if you were going to use the power fist or thunder hammer each round.

Where an option states that you may exchange one weapon 'and/or' another, you may REPLACE either, neither, or both provided you pay the stated cost

So you may choose not to replace a weapon. Why is everyone reading that as adding weapons?

derek wrote:I couldn't care less about the loophole/not a loophole/bad wording, I still want to know where it says that you fight assault with the weapon you shot with.

That's a rule in WHFB. You cannot change weapons in the middle of a combat (except for those few units that are allowed to break that rule.)

In 40k, you simply have to use the weapons you purchase, i.e. if you replace your chainsword with a powerfist, you have to use the powerfist. I don't know if that is the rule the poster was referring to or not.

Ghaz wrote:
So you may choose not to replace a weapon. Why is everyone reading that as adding weapons?

Because obvious loopholes are no longer good enough. We now need to twist wording to cause controversy.

What do you mean we Now need to do that? Haven't we always done that?

Oh I was hoping you could do this I am own chapter master Anegusse Macegiver ; he is a sort of all purpose captain who I can use with any army to wsupplement the fighting forcce with a model that can react to any threat.

His deal it he has the Swissen Mastercrafted Battalion bolter ; I've modeled it so that he has a melta gun plasma gun and flamer on the bottom of his bolter : I wish I had a camera to show but I am in transit

My only problem is that "I am having trouble fitting all of this on him. So far I am just using the Marneus Calgar model and I have cut off the bottoms of his gauntlets to add the boltguns to either side. Then I have ordered the lighting claw arms from the veteran mk 1 to glue to his back pack my only problem is that the model keeps falling over because of all the items I have glued to his jump pack.

Can anyone give a suggestion on modeling 2 pairs oflighting claws. thunderhammer, iron halo, auxillary grenade launcher, onto a jump packon the marneus calgar model?

You can't do that though. If you'd fire the storm bolter then charge into HtH you can't change over to say you are now using a pistol. You're stuck with the weapon you already declared you are using that turn, for the entire turn. It's been the same with Chaos Marines who have bolters and bp/ccws.

No such rule...

I (obviously) beg to differ on your questioning of my English comprehension. The relevant quote again:

Viperion wrote:p128:

Where an option states that you may exchange one weapon 'and/or' another, you may replace either, neither, or both provided you pay the stated cost

(emphasis added)

PLEASE NOTE: They did not say:

Where an option states that you may exchange one weapon 'and/or' another, you may replace either, or both provided you pay the stated cost

This CLEARLY indicates that you can pay the listed cost to have an additional weapon. I can pay +x points to have a Storm Bolter in addition to my bolt pistol and chainsword. Since I still have my bolter and chainsword, I can now pay x points to also have a Storm Shield.

This doesn't work in the cases where you "exchange x for..." as you no longer have item "x" to exchange after you've done it once. However in this case, and because they have clearly allowed it (hence the "neither" clause which they could have left out), you can simply buy More Stuff(tm)

(Insert snide comment about english comprehension here. I don't have the time to get personal)

Viperion

Viperion wrote:I (obviously) beg to differ on your questioning of my English comprehension. The relevant quote again:

Viperion wrote:p128:

Where an option states that you may exchange one weapon 'and/or' another, you may replace either, neither, or both provided you pay the stated cost

(emphasis added)

PLEASE NOTE: They did not say:

Where an option states that you may exchange one weapon 'and/or' another, you may replace either, or both provided you pay the stated cost

This CLEARLY indicates that you can pay the listed cost to have an additional weapon. I can pay +x points to have a Storm Bolter in addition to my bolt pistol and chainsword. Since I still have my bolter and chainsword, I can now pay x points to also have a Storm Shield.

This doesn't work in the cases where you "exchange x for..." as you no longer have item "x" to exchange after you've done it once. However in this case, and because they have clearly allowed it (hence the "neither" clause which they could have left out), you can simply buy More Stuff(tm)

(Insert snide comment about english comprehension here. I don't have the time to get personal)

Viperion

I am sorry but you are simply wrong. You are twisting an intrepation to do something that isn't possible. Therefore I believe your comprehension is some what suspect. Simple as that. For once I agree (and actually understand him!) with Nurglethingywhatchamacallit.

Sorry, but once again you're not showing any instance where it says you may add a weapon.

Where an option states that you may EXCHANGE one weapon 'and/or' another, you may REPLACE either, neither, or both provided you pay the stated cost.

So you're exchanging a weapon for another, not adding one. And you may replace either, neither or both weapons with the weapon that you're exchanging it for. There's nothing about 'adding' weapons.