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So I noticed that when 5th ed came out that it said "Engaged models with two single-handed weapons...get an extra +1 attack." Using the old armory rules it seemed logical enough that it was allowing for 1 handed ranged weapons other than pistols would grant you the bonus attack, but now looking at the new armory it's not as clear cut anymore.

For example, the storm bolter never says if it is a 2 or 1 handed weapon, presumably then you can assume it's 1 handed and claim +1 attack in close combat if wielding it with a close combat weapon.

Is this phrase from the core rules just a terrible choice of words in saying that pistols can give you +1 attack, or is it really meant to allow other weapons to grant it.

Its worded badly.

I believe it is stated in the rulebook that any ranged weapon that doesn't have 'pistol' in its profile is considered 2 handed (might even say 'rifle') - My book is at home and I am sure this answer will not suffice.

It doesn't state that a stormbolter is single-handed, therefore you can't assume that it is a single-handed weapon.

You can't assume that it's a double-handed weapon either, of course, but that doesn't matter - all that matters in getting an extra attack in close combat is that it is defined as a single-handed weapon.

The Storm Bolter is not a close combat weapon, nor is it a Pistol.

only pistols and close combat weapons give you that +1A

Looking back over the weapon classifications I think they resolve this issue for me anyway, The pistol weapon category description specifically says they are light enough to be used in close combat with another close combat weapon. This is a specific functionality of pistols because there's nothing to indicate other ranged weapons are used outside the shooting phase. Because of this, a weapon either needs the pistol category, or it's own unique allowance for use in assault as a 1 handed weapon (not necessarily a pistol, although in this situation they would probably just say can be used as a ccw or grants +1 attack in close combat) to grant the bonus.

It's just that when you view my original quote on it's own you don't get the full picture.

Cheexsta wrote:It doesn't state that a stormbolter is single-handed, therefore you can't assume that it is a single-handed weapon.

You can't assume that it's a double-handed weapon either, of course, but that doesn't matter - all that matters in getting an extra attack in close combat is that it is defined as a single-handed weapon.

Just thought I would pick this out as it's going a bit off my argument now, but I think we have to naturally assume every weapon is 1 handed unless told otherwhise, Codex Space Marines refers to the core rulebook for power weapon rules, and those rules say nothing at all about handedness. So we couldn't assume single handedness here and could not get an extra attack in close combat. This seems to ring true that you should assume single handedness because none of the traditionally 1 handed melee weapons say they are 1 handed as far as I can see while the relic blade clearly defines itself as 2 handed.

As I mentioned I no longer think ranged weapons other than pistols can grant the bonus attack but I would still consider them all one handed unless told otherwhise by thier description, it seems to be the way the rules are written although it's definitely not 100% there.

Yeah but as someone already said - ok, fine, your stormbolter's 1-handed. It still doesn't grant an extra attack as it's not a pistol or a ccw.

From page 37 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two singlehanded weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack.

So where exactly does it say that you only get the bonus attack if it's a pistol or a close combat weapon? The rules have not made that distinction since 3rd edition.

Also note that there is no 'default' on the number of hands it takes to use a weapon. If the rules don't tell us, then there is simply no answer that does not require us to make an assumption.

Drunkspleen wrote:
As I mentioned I no longer think ranged weapons other than pistols can grant the bonus attack but I would still consider them all one handed unless told otherwhise by thier description, it seems to be the way the rules are written although it's definitely not 100% there.

Callidus Neural Shredder. Not a pistol or ccw but defined by the FAQ as a one-handed weapon, ergo it (with the phase sword) grants +1 attack. And if it ain't defined as a one-handed weapon, then it isn't.

As for the Storm Bolters, if they were one-handed weapons, why would Grey Knights need True Grit.....................??

If memory serves me right, were Stormbolters originally only available to Terminators? Nvm, the 3rd edition SM codex listed it in the armoury section as a two-handed weapon.

I'm assuming the layout of the new SM Codex is like the new CSM codex and there is no definitive 'armoury' listing? Yeah, that could really screw stuff up, hate that layout.

All I can say is 'traditionally' a storm bolter has always been two-handed. I modeled some VSS for my SoB squads holding Stormbolters and power swords. I seem to remember going through the 5th edition rules to verify they would not get the extra attack. I don't recall being happily surprised wrong.

The latest FAQ for Ordos stated the neural shredder is single handed.

G

Drunkspleen wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:It doesn't state that a stormbolter is single-handed, therefore you can't assume that it is a single-handed weapon.

You can't assume that it's a double-handed weapon either, of course, but that doesn't matter - all that matters in getting an extra attack in close combat is that it is defined as a single-handed weapon.

Just thought I would pick this out as it's going a bit off my argument now, but I think we have to naturally assume every weapon is 1 handed unless told otherwhise, Codex Space Marines refers to the core rulebook for power weapon rules, and those rules say nothing at all about handedness. So we couldn't assume single handedness here and could not get an extra attack in close combat. This seems to ring true that you should assume single handedness because none of the traditionally 1 handed melee weapons say they are 1 handed as far as I can see while the relic blade clearly defines itself as 2 handed.

As I mentioned I no longer think ranged weapons other than pistols can grant the bonus attack but I would still consider them all one handed unless told otherwhise by thier description, it seems to be the way the rules are written although it's definitely not 100% there.

No, you still cannot "naturally assume that every weapon is 1 handed" because the rules do, in fact, tell you that a power weapon is single-handed. See page 42, under "Fighting with two single-handed weapons."

don_mondo wrote:And if it ain't defined as a one-handed weapon, then it isn't.

Actually it's more like if it's not defined as a one (or two) handed weapon then we don't know how many hands it takes to use.

Its exactly as Ghaz is saying.

With the removal of armories from each codex it doesn't matter how many hands a weapon takes to use.

The only thing that matters is if a weapon is "single-handed" in which case it can be used (along with another single-handed weapon) to get the +1 Attack bonus in close combat.

Only weapons noted as being single-handed (of which pistols and close combat weapons are) fall under this heading.

Cheexsta wrote:No, you still cannot "naturally assume that every weapon is 1 handed" because the rules do, in fact, tell you that a power weapon is single-handed. See page 42, under "Fighting with two single-handed weapons."

You claim to be able to see it so go ahead and quote it, I see not a single reference to power weapon in that whole section.

yakface wrote:Only weapons noted as being single-handed (of which pistols and close combat weapons are) fall under this heading.

Where are close combat weapons noted as being single handed, I agree with the principle, but think the rulebook fails to do this. It seems to be pistols are the only "category" of weapon where single handedness is clearly defined for the whole group.

yakface wrote:
Its exactly as Ghaz is saying.

With the removal of armories from each codex it doesn't matter how many hands a weapon takes to use.

The only thing that matters is if a weapon is "single-handed" in which case it can be used (along with another single-handed weapon) to get the +1 Attack bonus in close combat.

Only weapons noted as being single-handed (of which pistols and close combat weapons are) fall under this heading.

I'm saying that if the rules don't tell us if a weapon is one- or two-handed then we don't know how many hands it takes to use and therefore we can't say for certain whether or not it will provide a +1 Attack in close combat. You seem to be saying that only a weapon that says it's 'one-handed' is, thus defaulting all other weapons to be 'two-handed'. I disagree with that statement.

And I agree with Drunkspleen. I see nothing on page 42 that says power weapons are one-handed weapons.

Ghaz wrote:I'm saying that if the rules don't tell us if a weapon is one- or two-handed then we don't know how many hands it takes to use and therefore we can't say for certain whether or not it will provide a +1 Attack in close combat. You seem to be saying that only a weapon that says it's 'one-handed' is, thus defaulting all other weapons to be 'two-handed'. I disagree with that statement.

And I agree with Drunkspleen. I see nothing on page 42 that says power weapons are one-handed weapons.

No. Weapons that aren't noted as being single-handed aren't two-handed. They're just weapons.


Only single-handed weapons get the +1 attack bonus. All other weapons are just weapons (except for those noted as being two-handed, of course, which have their own set of rules).

Drunkspleen wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:No, you still cannot "naturally assume that every weapon is 1 handed" because the rules do, in fact, tell you that a power weapon is single-handed. See page 42, under "Fighting with two single-handed weapons."

You claim to be able to see it so go ahead and quote it, I see not a single reference to power weapon in that whole section.

Try reading a little harder.

Power weapons are listed in the "Special Close Combat Weapons" section. The "Fighting with two Single-Handed Weapons" section basically states that all of those weapons are single-handed.

yakface wrote:No. Weapons that aren't noted as being single-handed aren't two-handed. They're just weapons.

Which means that you're requiring a third type of weapon which has no mention in the rules whatsoever. That's a pretty big gap in the rules to have an entire type of weapon with absolutely no rules in the rulebook. Besides, what's the difference between this 'type' of weapon and a two-handed weapon? Why couldn't they just make them two-handed weapons? A weapon is either single-handed or two-handed. There is no third type of weapon and no evidence that one exists.

Cheexsta wrote:Power weapons are listed in the "Special Close Combat Weapons" section. The "Fighting with two Single-Handed Weapons" section basically states that all of those weapons are single-handed.

Sorry, but it says no such thing. Saying that some models "... are equipped with two single-handed weapons that can be used in close combat..." does not make all close combat weapons single-handed.

yakface check your PM's

Remember now, this is Dakka Dakka, so forum rules logic must apply! If the rules don't clearly and absolutely non conflictingly state in black and white that a weapon is a two handed weapon then of course by omission the rules then clearly and justifiably indicate that the weapon is indeed a one handed weapon!

So by that logic we should all be able to clearly see now that stormbolters, bolters, combi-weapons, flamers, plasma rifles, melta guns, heavy bolters, lascannons, missile launchers, plasma cannons and multi-meltas are all now one handed weapons because the rules don't specifically spell out that these are two handed weapons and don't grant a +1A bonus in HtH when used with a CCW! Hurray!

No. If the rules don't specifically state thet it's single-handed and they don't specifically state that it's two-handed then the fact is we have not been given enough information to say which it is. Not all questions can be answered if we don't have the information, and this is just such an instance.

Ghaz wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:Power weapons are listed in the "Special Close Combat Weapons" section. The "Fighting with two Single-Handed Weapons" section basically states that all of those weapons are single-handed.

Sorry, but it says no such thing. Saying that some models "... are equipped with two single-handed weapons that can be used in close combat..." does not make all close combat weapons single-handed.

I think you misread what I said. I said that all of "those" weapons - that is, the aforementioned "Special Close Combat Weapons" - are all single-handed.

It may not be spelled out, but it is certainly strongly implied.

Swordbreaker wrote:Remember now, this is Dakka Dakka, so forum rules logic must apply! If the rules don't clearly and absolutely non conflictingly state in black and white that a weapon is a two handed weapon then of course by omission the rules then clearly and justifiably indicate that the weapon is indeed a one handed weapon!

So by that logic we should all be able to clearly see now that stormbolters, bolters, combi-weapons, flamers, plasma rifles, melta guns, heavy bolters, lascannons, missile launchers, plasma cannons and multi-meltas are all now one handed weapons because the rules don't specifically spell out that these are two handed weapons and don't grant a +1A bonus in HtH when used with a CCW! Hurray!

Permissive argument in a RAW topic. If this isn't sarcasm, then I fear for what kids think 'logic' means these days. Why would you NEED to spell out that something is two-handed when it doesn't affect anything? I can't actually think of any two-handed CCWs off the top of my head either. Perhaps that was just mentioned for the Codexes with 4th ed. armoury pages that still mentioned certain ranged weapons as being two-handed for the purposes of how many you could carry. This was replaced with the or/either/neither choice that STILL managed to confuse people. I don't think a lot of people grasp language as well as they think they do.

Pistols are pistols are pistols. They're a special category of ranged weapon that can count as an additional CCW. If they're not classified as pistols then they aren't pistols and aren't CCWs, and therefore do nothing but what they say they do.

Any weapon can be used in close combat including ranged weapons as the rules specifically mentions rifle butts, combat blades and bayonets as normal close combat weapons.
It's simply messy. There should be a listing on all weapons how many hands it uses.

Ghaz wrote:
Which means that you're requiring a third type of weapon which has no mention in the rules whatsoever. That's a pretty big gap in the rules to have an entire type of weapon with absolutely no rules in the rulebook. Besides, what's the difference between this 'type' of weapon and a two-handed weapon? Why couldn't they just make them two-handed weapons? A weapon is either single-handed or two-handed. There is no third type of weapon and no evidence that one exists.

No, I'm not saying there is a mystical third type of weapon.

I'm saying that a weapon being denoted as a 'single-handed weapon' in v5 is just a label for the weapon that has a rule attached to it, like 'gets hot' for example. A weapon noted as 'single-handed' means something because there is a rule in the rulebook.

That doesn't suddenly mean all weapons are either two-handed or single-handed, it just means we've got weapons (generic), some of whom are noted as being 'single-handed' in which case they can be used to get the +1A bonus in combat.

However that does make a third type of weapon. You have single-handed, two-handed and 'neither-handed'. Basically you're saying it's just another weapon attribute, so why isn't it listed with all of the other weapon attributes like power weapons, etc. in the rulebook? And why have all of the codices with Armouries had only single-handed and two-handed weapons and none of these 'neither-handed' weapons? Nor have you explained what the difference would be between a two-handed and a 'neither-handed' weapon. Your explanation still requires additions to the rules that just are not there.

Cheexsta wrote:I think you misread what I said. I said that all of "those" weapons - that is, the aforementioned "Special Close Combat Weapons" - are all single-handed.

It may not be spelled out, but it is certainly strongly implied.

Sorry, but 'implied' does not equal 'rule'.

Cheexsta wrote:I think you misread what I said. I said that all of "those" weapons - that is, the aforementioned "Special Close Combat Weapons" - are all single-handed.

It may not be spelled out, but it is certainly strongly implied.

But that can't be, as the normal close combat weapons section makes reference to rifle butts, and then the Fighting with Two Single Handed Weapons section goes on to say "two-handed close combat weapon(such as a rifle's butt...)"