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Here is the challange I was asked. A captain/commander and his honor/ command guard are infantry models per their description. A landraider carries 12 models. In the rules for transport vehicles it says only infantry can use a vehicle. If a commander and his honor guard take bikes where does it say they aren't infantry any more and therefore cannot take a landraider. I have read it again - please can someone quote me a page! fyi pg 66 for transports, pg 53 for bikes

Usual qualifications bla blah blah not sugestng do it blah blah blah just theory

On page 198 of the Apocalypse book it says that bikes/jetbikes count as 3 infantry each for transport purposes, but it is mentioned only for superheavy vehicles, so it is a question of how agreeable your opponent is, and how big the squad is.

fullheadofhair wrote: where does it say they aren't infantry any more

Page 100 of the Marine codex. The Space Marine Bike entry says that models with bikes follow the rules for bikes.

insaniak wrote:

fullheadofhair wrote: where does it say they aren't infantry any more

Page 100 of the Marine codex. The Space Marine Bike entry says that models with bikes follow the rules for bikes.

see I though of that one as well, but page 100 as you say follows the rules for bikes on pg 53 of the rule book. pg 53 doesn't say they cannot fit in a landraider. The deciding factor is whether or not they are infantary or not. Neither pg 100 of SM codex of pg 53 of BRB changes that.

If you are a bike you are not infantry, you are a bike just like jump infantry are not infantry. The codex says they are bikes, so they are bikes. Only infantry may be put in transports.

Gee... good catch. Of course... where does it say they get to move 12"? Or that they get T+1?

It doesn't, that stuff just happens when you go from being infantry, to being a bike. (Just like not fitting in a transport)

this is a thoroughly intriguing point. There is in fact to my knowledge no point where it says you stop being infantry.

Hmmmm.. some of us are mad enough to try this you know

coredump wrote:Gee... good catch. Of course... where does it say they get to move 12"? Or that they get T+1?

It doesn't, that stuff just happens when you go from being infantry, to being a bike. (Just like not fitting in a transport)

pg 100 of SM codex says theyget movement of 12 and +1T because pg100 says to follow pg 53 of BRB which gives you those rules. However, now they are infantry models on bikes - are they still infantry models? Where does it say their status as infantry models changes because of wargear selection.

I always thought that Bikes coming out of Drop Pods would be totally awesome

Mad Dok Wotnot wrote:this is a thoroughly intriguing point. There is in fact to my knowledge no point where it says you stop being infantry.

Hmmmm.. some of us are mad enough to try this you know

I know!! I was writing a list and changing from bikes to lanraider when it hit me - infantry on bikes in a landraider. Ofcourse this is something no-one should do, but that isn't the point of this forum now is it - proving you are a pedantic ahat is!

If you read page 4-5 and page 51-55 of the rulebook I think it's failry obvious that a model can't be more than one unit type.

As per page 100 of marine codex they become bikes which is a unit type and therefore they cease to be infantry by default.

Webbe wrote:If you read page 4-5 and page 51-55 of the rulebook I think it's failry obvious that a model can't be more than one unit type.

As per page 100 of marine codex they become bikes which is a unit type and therefore they cease to be infantry by default.

Incorrect. the exact wording is "models equipped with SM bikes follow all the rules for bikes as described in the warhammer 40000 rulebook."
They don't become bikes at all, they are just equiped with them.

You follow ALL the rules for bikes, not just the ones you like. So it doesn't make a difference. The rules for bikes are that they can't be transported as they are not infantry.

Being equipped with a bike makes you become a biker. "bike" is both a piece of wargear and a unit type, not just a piece of wargear.

Webbe wrote:You follow ALL the rules for bikes, not just the ones you like. So it doesn't make a difference. The rules for bikes are that they can't be transported as they are not infantry.

Why don't you actually go and read the rules on pg 53 and pg 66. The defining ability to use a transport is classification, only infantry can use transport. The bike rules on pg 53 do not mention use of transport because it relies on the exclusion on pg 66 that only infantry use transport. Command/ honor guards are infantry equipped with bikes. Infantry can use transport. therefore ....

Where does it say that it is possible to be two different types of unit at once?

But you don't follow the bike rules on page 53, you follow the rules for bikes in the rulebook, all pages. Page 66 says only infantry may use transports. So bikes may not use transports and therefore units that follow all the rules for bikes can't use transports.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Where does it say that it is possible to be two different types of unit at once?

His point is that they still are infantry, just that they follow all the rules for bikes but their unit type remains infantry.
Technically he's correct but as they follow ALL the rules for bikes in the whole rulebook in essence and in practice they become bikes as unit type.

His point is that they still are infantry, just that they follow all the rules for bikes but their unit type remains infantry.
Technically he's correct but as they follow ALL the rules for bikes in the whole rulebook in essence and in practice they become bikes as unit type.

I know. His argument basically comes down to "it doesn't say i can't do this" because it doesn't say they don't still count as infantry. And so i'm bringing in the logical counter of asking where it says they do. This is working off what you are saying that they are bikers, not infantry equipped with bikes because bikes are a piece of wargear and a unit type, not just wargear as i said before.

fullheadofhair wrote: Command/ honor guards are infantry equipped with bikes.

There is no such thing as 'Infantry equipped with bikes'

'Bike' is a troop type. You can't be equipped with a troop type... you either are that type or you are not.

If they're following the rules for bikes, then they're following the rules for bikes. Bikes are not infantry, and so can not ride in transports.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Where does it say that it is possible to be two different types of unit at once?

what about a hive tyrant with wings, its jump infantry and a monstrous creature

youbedead wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Where does it say that it is possible to be two different types of unit at once?

what about a hive tyrant with wings, its jump infantry and a monstrous creature

Interesting, are you sure it is? Like the csm daemon prince can take wings, but wings just make it move as jump infantry, they don't actually make it jump infantry.

But if it is jump infantry and a monstrous creature that still isn't a rule saying you can be two different types of unit for marine bikers, only that the hive tyrant is. Sure it is a standard being set, but there is no RAW.

You're right, this is a silly question.

Aduro wrote:You're right, this is a silly question.

QFT.

Im left scraching my head.

it sort of reminds me of the matrix reloaded where neo and the key maker are on top of the truck and hot wire a bike on top of it and ride of the top lol

if i where playing someone who asked me if they could, i would totally agree, it is not only awsome sounding but makes for a great story thing [especially orks]

Admittedly it is kind of bad ass to imagine a command squad inside a LandRaider that opens its doors and they zoom out.

I agree, and mentioned this before Hollis, but I'd reserve it for special mission scenarios.

It's this kind of assinine interpretations of the rules that makes me cringe when I open a thread anymore.

WOW made my day this is a great laugh ... but simply you can have units of more then one type but only pure infantry can fit in a transport ... jump infantry are still infantry but with jump packs ... jet/bike infantry are still infantry with jet/bike ... MC are just big infantry ... but only infantry can fit in transports END ... if i ever meet some one that trys this i'm just going to end the game theres no point in goin on

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
I know. His argument basically comes down to "it doesn't say i can't do this"

What a great argument.

Nothing in the rules forbids this, so therefore it is legal.

(Now GW might not have intended this but that is neither here nor there as atm I would consider it legal.)

actually it kinda does. I was thinking to myself "what a dum question, and he must be an idiot for trying to defend it" but in the main rulebook pg51 it says:

"Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the same rules as infantry"

So it becomes a gray area. I believe both the RAW and RAI is no, as it says infantry, and they are bikes that follow same rules as infantry, but its not definitive enough to say "No"