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My friend recently got into 40k and we've been playing some 1000pt games.

My army is this:

2 10 Man Tac Squads, Flamers, Rocket Launchers, Rhinos, Powerfists
6 Sternguard, 4 Combi-Melta, Drop Pod
Librarian, Gate of Infinity and strength 5 ap 3 template
2 Vindicators

His army is this:
3 Wraithlord, starcannons, brightlance
3 Guardian Squads, 2 Star Cannons, 1 Scatterlaser, 3 Warlocks, 2 w/ Embolden
Farseer, Singing Spear, Doom, Guide, Stones

He also has 10 Striking Scorpions and 3 shining spears, but not at 1000

Usually our games go somethign like this:

turn 1, I combat squad, put Rockets in Cover, and PF and Flamers in Rhino
Drop in with sg, killl a wraithlord
Pie Plate with Vindicators
Move up Rhinos

He kills my sternguard
I move up and shoot his guardians with my tacs and continue to pie plate

Usually around this poitn I've decimated his guardians and his wraithlords are begining to take wounds.

What should my friend do to counter my list? Is the error in his composition, or does his list have what it takes to beat mine. I'm not sure what to tell him and I don't want to tell him to go and buy new units if what he's got can do that job.

yeh drop the singing spear on the warlock, in 1k possibly drop the unit with a starcannon, add in some scorpions with infiltrate and a powerfist, swap embolden for conceal on the guardians

in terms of tactics, ignore the sternguard with the Wraithlords and have the Wraithlords fire on the tanks whilst moving up (target vindies first, rhinos second), shoot the SG with his guardian squads after that use the guardian squads to fire on his tac squads, once the WL have dealt with the vindicators have them mop us, also using doom and guide where applicable to first kill the SG and then kill the tac squads

his armies fine if hes new its probably lack of knowing which unit to shoot at, target priority etc

How did he deploy? It sounds like he deployed too close to your vindicators if you got to fire them every turn.

It shouldn't take his entire army minus one WL to take out 6 marines, either.

I think that list can probably deal with the marines. I would probably make some weapon swaps though - EML and BL on the wraithlords, SL on all the guardians, and probably try for destructor on the warlocks (there isn't a lot of firepower in the list).

Target priority should probably be:

1 - any marines close to his lines (sternguard, anything that approaches via rhino)
2 - preventing vindis from shooting if they're w/in 30 inches
3 - transports during the first couple of turns
4 - marines at range

I would think it would take less than 850 points of guardians and wraithlords to kill 6 marines (what you claimed he did on his first turn).

99MDeery wrote:in 1k possibly drop the unit with a starcannon, add in some scorpions with infiltrate and a powerfist

I don't think scorpions infiltrating is very effective. They're not going to do anything on their first turn as they can't fleet (unless your opponent deploys poorly). And the exarch gets one less attack with the first in 5e, and you're paying a decent bit for the unit. I wouldn't recommend using them without a waverserpent to ride in.

Do you guys not play with cover or something?

Traskel wrote:How did he deploy? It sounds like he deployed too close to your vindicators if you got to fire them every turn.

It shouldn't take his entire army minus one WL to take out 6 marines, either.

I think that list can probably deal with the marines. I would probably make some weapon swaps though - EML and BL on the wraithlords, SL on all the guardians, and probably try for destructor on the warlocks (there isn't a lot of firepower in the list).

Target priority should probably be:

1 - any marines close to his lines (sternguard, anything that approaches via rhino)
2 - preventing vindis from shooting if they're w/in 30 inches
3 - transports during the first couple of turns
4 - marines at range

I would think it would take less than 850 points of guardians and wraithlords to kill 6 marines (what you claimed he did on his first turn).

I am the "Friend" and I appreciate the feedback.
Rarely ever can I deploy out of range of the Vindicators. For 1k games we have been playing on 4'x4' surfaces and 48" isn't big enough to avoid a 24" inch range after his deployment.
Most games start with my guardian squads getting pie plated by two Vindi's followed by a drop pod of 5 stern guard/librarian that clean up what is left. The 5 man rocket laucher squads pick off wounds from my Wraithlords followed by a rhino movement full of tac-marines.

On my turn, I have 2-3 decimated guardian squads w/ platforms trying to kill the Stern squad/librarian immediately. I have to go for complete squad annihilation which has never occured in the shooting phase. Thus assault is required by 2 of my squads and a wraithlord or two. Othewise the librarian will merely Gate out and special power my clustered and piled-in guardians/wraithlords. This intensifies the casualties I take because now that I had to assault the Stern squad the Vindi's on his next turn have pie plate heaven with the horde of piled-in guardians (pile-in is a crap rule).
At this point the two rhino's with tac-marines have not even disembarked and I am down a significant portion of my army.

The rest is history. His two Rocket Launcher squads sit back and plink my Wraithlords or remaining guardian squads and are never in jeapordy of being fired upon. My current Eldar list is not capable of downing 4 vehicles and a sternguard/librarain squad before taking 40% loss to my army. Factor in the tac-marines unloading flamers that offer no cover saves at about turn 3-4 and my army is toast.

I have no idea how to deal with 2 pie plating vehicles covering a Drop podded SternGuard/Lib group. I feel I should continue to castle up my units, add an Uber melee group to counter-assault the Stern's and free up my Wraithlords to down incoming vehicles. My hesitancy in doing so is what prevents him from drop podding his sternguard on top of my melee group and annihilating them with the librarian special ability and no cover rounds? Even so that still doesnt solve my problem with the vindicators destroying my guardian units from the beginning of his first turn.

He's fielded two different marine armies and whatever comes out of the drop pods gets split from 1x10 man group into 2x5 man groups and you bet they destroy everything on their first turn out. If they dont, the pieplating Vindi's do. Really frustrating.

How the heck do you defend against drop pods? They land, they vomit out marines, and boom anything nearby is dead. WTH?

Against that sort of SM army you need to find the points for some transports.

Even in 5th ed. Elder vehicles are hard to kill if you use them right.



GMort.

I just started playing Eldar a few months ago, but I can tell from his list already, he's not using his points wisely.

You don't need 3 guardian squads for beginners. One 20 man guardian squad with a warlock with conceal, not embolden. Scatterlasers are cheaper and better than starcannons. You get twice as many shots, and he's going to keep his marines in cover so the ap doesn't matter. So going from 2 guardian squads with starcannons and warlocks with embolden to 1 guardian squad with 1 warlock with conceal and a scatterlaser, you just saved 55 points.

You have no business pimping out a farseer in a 1000 pt battle, so drop the guide and spirit stones and singing spear and pick up rune of warding. that'll save you 28 points.

If he put starcannons AND brightlances on the wraithlords, which is kinda looks like he did, that's a huge waste of points. Put wraithblades on all three and brightlances, that'll save you another 60 points. Now you have enough points for a decent squad of striking scorpions.

The drop pod full of melta-guns is pretty twink, and there isn't a lot you can do about him shooting one of your wraithlords to gak first turn. 30 guardians is a lot though so you can probably spread them out thick enough to surround the wraithlords so they can't get shot at. But on second thought 4 melta-guns isn't gonna take out a wraithlord in one turn, +4 to wound. You're mission is to counter-attack the veteran squad with the wraithlord. If he didn't bring a powerfist the squad is toast, they can't wound against toughness 8, which is why wraithlords are so tits. Then you concentrate brightlance fire on the rhinos so they have to walk across the map. The guardians will mow them down with 40 str 4 shots, and then try to assault, that's 80 attacks on 10 marines if you do it right. I'd keep the wraithlords away from the marines because of the powerfists, focus them instead on the vindicators. Stay out of their range, and if you immobilize one you can just stay out of it's firing arc.

@ Haderach, you learn fast, i have been playing eldar for 8 years and only learnt some of these things last year [i was 8 when i started though lol].

On Topic....
First, the eldar player should only take squads of 10 guardians with either scatter lasers, for anti-troop or EML for anti tank and maybe troops but more tank.

second, if your assaulting his wraithlord make him remove the starcannons [they arnt goood this edition which is a shame] and give them wraithswords [as mentioned above] and keep the brightlances.

third, conseal on any warlock is a must, 5+ cover save seems useless but is a real life saver.

the farseer should be put in a guardian squad that stays close to a wraithlord [remember that guardians can move and still shoot the platform] and move with it, doom where he can and guilding the EML/scatter laser in the squad, keep the singing spear for popping the vindicator if it gets close [S9 + D6 is good]

All good advice but honestly id find it amazing if any army could survive a drop stern squad and 2 vindies at 1000 points.

No matter what advice you get here the sad part is he has far to much fire power in both the vindies or in that one squad for you to deal with if he gets the first turn.

About the only thing you could do is spread out all of your guard squads so he cant drop near your wraith lords and this will also some what protect your gaurdians from both the pie plates that are flying around. do your best to get rid of the vindies asap and keep the sterns in combat with something till you can deal with them with the wraith lords.

Thats about all you can do.

Oh and I honestly think its quiet unfair that hes running that against you considering your new. But what can you do,

if you infiltrate a striking scorpion squad near his heavy weapon squad it'll force him to pay attention to them, which will buy you some time too.

lifeafter wrote: His army is this:
3 Wraithlord, starcannons, brightlance
3 Guardian Squads, 2 Star Cannons, 1 Scatterlaser, 3 Warlocks, 2 w/ Embolden
Farseer, Singing Spear, Doom, Guide, Stones

In this 1000 points armylist your farseer doesnt do a lot. I Like to use guide on 3 shooty vypers/warwalkers, pathfinders, dark reapers or dire avengers...but not on a single Wraithlord (with bskill 4). I would trade him in for a Avatar. The Avatar can walk along with you wraithlords..and then you got 4 badasses on the table in a 1000p game! Combimelta's doesnt hurt him, powerfists only hit him at 5+ and he makes the guardians Fearless so that the warlocks doesnt need embolden but conceal. If you drop the wraithlord starcannons for extra points you could field a farseer with only fortune and runes. Cast fortune on the Avatar and its almost impossible to bring him down (in a 1000p game)!
Keep everything together until the sternguard drops. maybe the take out a wraithlord but then you got a great counter attack Avatar or wraitlords with 2 flamers each (You do pick flamers dont you..). Keep shooting the Vindicators with brightlances until the krack.

I would give the guardians a missle launcher. U can shoot with a anti vehicle missle OR With Bskill 3 I like to shoot with the S4 ap 4 blast missle! If the marines are in cover you can try to kill one marine and maybe the will become pinned.

Here's what I suggest. The Farseer doesn't need Spirit Stones, since two powers is expensive, and he doesn't need an enhancing power so much as a hitty-power. The Eldritch Storm has the advantage of causing pinning. But mainly he's there to shephard the Wraithlords, and give the Librarian a hard time using Psychic Powers. Eldritch Storm gives you another pinning weapon, and one that can mess up a Drop Pod while you're throwing it around.

The Wraithlords and the Guardians should be able to set up over 36" away from the Vindicators. When the Pod makes splash down, shoot up the Sternguard with a couple of Plasma rounds from the Eldar Missile Launchers from the Wraithguard and a flamethrower or two, and if they aren't pinned, then assault them with the Wraithlords and the Striking Scorpions. If they are pinned, manoeuvre the Striking Scorpions to deal with the incoming Rhinos. Move the Guardians out of cover and use their Eldar Missile Launchers to shoot the Vindicators. Remember to, if possible, use your Guardian's mobility to stay out of the Vindicator's way.

So that's concentrate the Wraith Lord, Farseer, and Striking Scorpions on the Sternguard, and concentrate the three Guardian squads on the Vindicators. Keep firing at one until it dies (or its stunned) and then hit the other. Once you've finished the Sternguard, use the Eldar Missile Launchers on the Wraithguard to hit the remaining Vindicator(s). In the absense of these targets, hit the Rhinos or use Plasma rounds to pin any sniping combat squads while you manoeuvre to assault and destroy his squads.

Suggested Army List
Farseer
w/Eldritch Storm, Runes of Warding

Striking Scorpions
w/Exarch (Biting Blade), 5 Striking Scorpions

3xGuardian Squad
w/Warlock (Conceal), 10 Guardians, 1 Eldar Missile Launcher

3x Wraithlord
w/Eldar Missile Launcher, Two Flamethrowers, Wraithsword

Eldritch storm sucks... what do you want to do with it? It only has a 18 inch range. If your within 18 inch of a vinidicator you got a problem and the Edritch storm isnt going to save you. If you want to use it on the sternguard it only has S3!

Why would you pick 5/6 striking scorpions in a 1000P game? There will be 20 tactical marines waiting for them. Its better to pick a Avatar...for sure.

You should never drop the bright lances on the wraithlord. With bskill 4 the are the best tank hunters!

Eldritch Storm is fine. It's inexpensive, does 2D6+3 penetration against vehicles, and most importantly it pins. I suppose it could be used as a last resort on the Vindicators, but massed Eldar Missile Launcher fire will see them off.

Against A12- the Eldar Missile Launcher is as good as a Bright Lance, much cheaper, longer ranged, and it's very effective against infantry. Again, it can pin. This greater flexibility gives it greater utility in small points game.

The Striking Scorpions are mop-up crew. kastlerok apparently already has the models, and the points work out such that they will actually fit into the army with the appropriate adjustments made (getting rid of superfluous stuff like Spirit Stones, and all the expensive Bright Lances, etc).

Nurglitch wrote:Eldritch Storm is fine. It's inexpensive, does 2D6+3 penetration against vehicles, and most importantly it pins. I suppose it could be used as a last resort on the Vindicators, but massed Eldar Missile Launcher fire will see them off.

I know what it does, its the 18 inch range thats the problem. The question is: how do you want to use Eldritch storm? Your summing up what it does but not how it should be used. Lets look at the options:

- against droppod sternguard: with a avarage roll of 7+3 penetration you have to roll high to destroy the droppod. 6 sternguards will only get 2 wounds (S3 against T4) and a 3+ save after that. IF you kill one there is still one pinning test to be taken.
- spacemarines with rhino: I dont think the will move within 18 inch(wraithlords)...still the eldritch storm is not what the fear. Maybe 1 or two marines die and the have to take pinning test. If your Farseer is within 18 inch he probably can use it once and after that there is a big combat going on.
- vindicator: Its possible to spin the vindicator with his backside showing. could be usefull but i think the 18inch is still a problem because he wil shoot firts! two templates on your farseer/guardians is a bad thing.

Nurglitch wrote:Against A12- the Eldar Missile Launcher is as good as a Bright Lance, much cheaper, longer ranged, and it's very effective against infantry. Again, it can pin. This greater flexibility gives it greater utility in small points game.

Thats very true. In a 1500p list I got both on my wraithlords. But now you are facing av13 vindicators and you need all the help you can get! You need the "-1 av" to make sure the vindicators cant shoot with those big plates. In a 1000p game I rely on the 6 flamers (2 for each wraithlord) to do the infantry killing. I also like the fact that a Brightlance can take out obliterators/terminators and other 2+ saves.

Nurglitch wrote:The Striking Scorpions are mop-up crew. kastlerok apparently already has the models, and the points work out such that they will actually fit into the army with the appropriate adjustments made (getting rid of superfluous stuff like Spirit Stones, and all the expensive Bright Lances, etc).

The fact that he has the models doenst make it a better option than the Avatar. of course he can fit it in his army if he really want to...

Can you not go to ground when he fires with Vindicators? In any decent amount of terrain you're getting a 3+ cover save, and it's not like you're sacrificing a whole lot of offensive power.

I think the Eldar player is using them like a standard gunline, which is always an uphill battle for the pointy ears.

Simplest solution I suppose would be to run the Avatar. 4 MCs in 1k = fun!

Thanks for all the advice. I know it's cheesy to bring the vindicators, but i just sold all my old space marines (imperial fists ) and I can't fill out a 1000 points without bringing them.

From what I've gathered from this conversation, the major changes Kastlerok needs to make are that he needs to change his load out on the wraithlord and farseer.

Should he still bring 2 starcannons and one scatter laser on the guardians? Or should he change those to EMLs? With BS3, I was thinking the EMLs might be a waste? Isn't the quantity of fire from a scatter laser a better investment? The scatter laser could also hurt my rhinos.

I think if he brings runes of warding, he'll take away my gate ability and he'll be able to lock my sternguard in combat with one wraithlord.

I haven't got much experience playing foot eldar myself, I play against it quite often though as a friend of mine sometimes puts his main force away to battle with his wraithlords and friends.

The first thing your friend needs to do is drop all of the starcannons. They have become horribly overpriced since the 4th edition eldar codex was released two years ago. I would suggest to replace them with scatter lasers for the guardian squads and either an eldar missile launcher or a wraithsword (personal preference) for the wraithlords.

The farseer has way too much gear for such a small battle. Taking a simple farseer with doom (and possibly runes of warding) would be wise. If your friend has an avatar (or is willing to buy one), he could also replace his farseer with the avatar. This would make all the guardians fearless, which would allow him to drop embolden from the warlocks and take either (depending on the availability of cover saves on your table) conceal or destructor.

I hope this helps,
Airmaniac

Thanks for the feedback. Here are the changes I will make to my army based on the suggestions. Sufficient?

HQ
Farseer - Warding, Fortune
Avatar of Khaine

Troops
Guardian x 10, EML platform
Guardian x 10, EML platform
Guardian x 10, no platform

Elites
Striking Scorpions x 5

Heavy Support
Wraithlord - Bright Lance, 2 x flamers
Wraithlord - Bright Lance, 2 x Flamers
Wraithlord - EML, Wraithsword, 2 x Flamers

That is 1K points on the nose.

Trudge up the board with a fortuned avatar and farseer with two Wraithlords in tow taking out offensive armor/key units. Three guardian squads, scorpions, and wraithsword lord form the objective holding point.
The rest depends.

I will kill this Marine army! Weee R El'Dar

Kastlerok

Looking way better, although I'm personally not a fan of bringing one shot weapons on guardians as they have a relatively low ballistic skill. Your guardians will mostly be shooting at infantry anyway (you have the wraithlords and avatar for the anti-tank duties) so I'd prefer scatter lasers on them. However eldar missile launchers can be solid choices. Especially if you are taking them to guard objectives near your own deployment zone, as the rest of your guardians will be out of range anyway. Which brings me to another point:
You have to be careful with deploying and moving guardians ourside of the avatars fearless bubble. Your game plan seems to be to split the guardians into a different group than the avatar. If you are planning this before the game even starts I'd suggest you give the guardians a warlock with embolden, as your guardians will fall back when the opponents even stare at them when not inside the avatar's fearless bubble.
I don't really see a use for the striking scorpions. Either drop them or go all the way and take a larger unit with an exarch with the power fist equivalent. In the set-up you are planning now, they simply won't accomplish anything but die.

In lists terms this would look a lot like:

Farseer (either fortune or doom and possibly warding)
Avatar

10 Guardians (scatter laser)
10 Guardians (scatter laser)
10 Guardians (EML) + warlock (embolden)

Wraithlord (2x flamer, Bright lance, Wraithsword)
Wraithlord (2x flamer, Bright lance, Wraithsword)
Wraithlord (2x flamer, Bright lance, Wraithsword)

In this setup the Guardian squad with the EML will guard objectives closer to your deployment zone and shoot the EML at range (possibly supported by a wraithlord or perhaps even two) while the rest of your army pushes forward as a fearless wall of units.

kastlerok wrote:Guardian x 10, no platform

Is that legal? (I guess it is for storm guardians)

Too pricey in his selections at 1000 points...

Use this as a core:

1 Farseer: Runes of Warding and Doom (Warding makes your librarian less of an automatic on his psychics who knows you might even kill yourself!!)

3x 10 Guardians with Shuriken Cannon, Scatter Laser or EML

2x Wraithlords with EML + Brightlance

That should leave him about 300 points for whatever he wants based on his style and what he hates more... your Vindicators or to strip your marines.

EML+Brightlance should focus on eliminating your vindicators or at least dinging them so they can't shoot.

Some choices:

3 Dark Reapers: Exarch with EML and Fast Shot. This gives him an accurate reach out and touch unit that can go after vehicles with the eml or 6 AP3 shots into marines each and every turn.

6 Pathfinders: This unit eats marines for breakfast and are very hard to knock out of cover.

6 Warp Spiders: Nothing like 14 S6 shots with a unit that can easily manuever around flanks and shoot up vindicators or rhinos or marines and get back out of harms way.

3 Guardian Bikes: 1 with Shuriken Cannon. These are great to pop out from behind cover shoot and then at the end of games dash out to control or contest objectives.

6 Fire Dragons: Short ranged and brittle but great at eliminating tanks or marines.

10 Dire Avengers: Exarch with Bladestorm and 2 catapults. 152 points of love on a marine that should average 15 wounds on any marine unit.

1 Avatar

2 more 10 guardian squads.

1 Falcon: A bit more AT work and great with a unit of fire dragons or banshees

1 Fire Prism: Range, mobility and a great killer of vehicles.

6 Howling banshees: With doom this unit can slice and dice any marine.

6 Striking Scorpions: With a biting blade and outflanking, this unit has some staying power and can even drop a vindicator.

1 Exarch: Fusion gun, wings or spider pack... mobile tank killer.

3 Warwalkers: Cheap with shuriken cannon or scatter laser and EML. This is multi-purpose marine or vehicle killer.

2 D-cannons: Fair trade - two S10 AP1 blasts can drop a vindicator or marines with equal ease.


He should be able to field at least two of any of these choices and have a better chance against your marines.

HQ
Farseer - Warding, Fortune
Avatar of Khaine

Troops
Guardian x 10, EML platform
Guardian x 10, EML platform
Guardian x 10, no platform

Elites
Striking Scorpions x 5

Heavy Support
Wraithlord - Bright Lance, 2 x flamers
Wraithlord - Bright Lance, 2 x Flamers
Wraithlord - EML, Wraithsword, 2 x Flamers

-Guardians have to take platforms, unless they're storm guardians. You don't need a third guardian squad at 1000 points, esp. since it sounds like the two of you are just playing "kill the other guy" and not mission based scenarios.

-Striking Scorpions are bad against marines. As was said earlier they infiltrate form the board edge, not even that reliably which one, and then move on 6, and char ge 6. His heavies will just not set up near the edge and the scorpions will be wasted points. Banshees are the anti-marine, if you want to anti-marine using combat that is.

-Brightlances are narrowly (very narrowly) better than EML's when facing only armor 13, and are no better against rhino's. I'd take EML's to save points and provide a bit of flexibility if you decide you want a template instead of a one shot. He doesnt field any termies, so the ap2 is moot.

-At this point, you're essentially running 1000 point eldzilla (named for the likeness to the tyranid monstrous creature army). If your farseer is only there to babysit your avatar, just use eldrad. Im not saying its nice or the most sporting approach, but then again, neither is 4 mc's at 1000 points from eldar to begin with.


Changes I'd make:

-10 Guardians
-5 x Striking Scorpions

-160 points to play with.

-Bump your farseer to eldrad, run your brick of doom forward, and crush everything in sight.




On a seperate note, you may want to consider (if you're just learning 40k) not playing, well, quite so beardy a list so to speak. This list may not get the most rave reviews when you start playing people besides just this one friend. You'll learn better on a more balanced list anyhow.

Wow, I can't believe I read all the comments...but I did!

I have some suggestions which are no more valid than anyone elses, and have popped up before. I also have some questions for clarification.

Questions I guess first.

How are his 2 Missile Launchers a threat to your Wraithlords? Most likely he will only be hitting and wounding 1 Wraithlord a turn with the missiles, and by turn 3 or so they should be in combat thus nullifying their shots.

Are you two playing real scenarios? or "kill each other"?

Play real scenarios and all the rules, it makes the lists play more balanced as an army built to kill will do better with no real objectives. And since he really only has 2 troop choices he's in a bind for holding/taking objectives.

Your new list looks good, save for the Striking Scorpions...I don't see them being very useful, as they are a small unit with no transport, thus likely will get blown to all hell.

Your runes of Warding is very good, stops his Psychic powers almost completely.

And I'd seriously re-think your own army, as 3 wraithlords and a farseer is rarely seen in tournament sized 1700 point games, let alone 1000 points.

Try some war walkers with all Scatter Lasers, they eat marines and rhinos for breakfast.

Also like it was mentioned before, Pathfinders are amazing!! They will eat apart any marine squad within 36".

Also the EML on your guardians is fine, as they don't need to hit if they shoot a frag round, and it is nice to have the option of a tank hunting shot if needed, just don't rely on them to tank hunt for you.

IMO this marine list should get throttled time and again by this Eldar set-up, and I've been playing Marines for 10+ years.

best of luck in your games guys. Remember, play real scenarios, mak sure the turn limit is set, and all rules are followed, I have a feeling by reading this that many of the above things haven't been done correctly.


Hope you guys have fun either way, as thats what its all about right?

We have been playing real scenarios, which is a big reason why my vindicators can reach him on the first turn. 2 out 3 deployment types allow me to put my vindicators beyond 12 inches of my table edge.

The missions have also been conducive to my list because I have mobility and he doesn't. So I've been able to claim objectives.

His list is doing fairly well against mine in terms of just "killing each other"

We actually haven't rolled a Killpoints game yet.

I think changing his load out should make him more competitive, but with no mobility in the list, he'll still be fighting uphill to win objective based scenarios.


We're having a blast, I just don't want to give him bad advice on what units to buy or how to load his stuff out. I've never played eldar and most of my experience against them is 4th edition, so I don't trust myself on the matter. Thanks for all the input!

Striking Scorpions are bad against marines. As was said earlier they infiltrate form the board edge, not even that reliably which one, and then move on 6, and char ge 6. His heavies will just not set up near the edge and the scorpions will be wasted points. Banshees are the anti-marine, if you want to anti-marine using combat that is.

You are wrong sir, Striking Scorpions follow the normal infiltrate rules if you take shadowstrike. Which is 12 inches out of LOS and 18 in LOS. They chew up marines bad. They get 4 attacks on the charge with STR 4. I've had my striking scorpion exarch take out 5 sternguards in one CC round by himself. I play with striking scorpions a lot and I find them to be awesome, they draw a lot of fire.

Plus the guy already has the models.

haderach wrote:

Striking Scorpions are bad against marines. As was said earlier they infiltrate form the board edge, not even that reliably which one, and then move on 6, and char ge 6. His heavies will just not set up near the edge and the scorpions will be wasted points. Banshees are the anti-marine, if you want to anti-marine using combat that is.

You are wrong sir, Striking Scorpions follow the normal infiltrate rules if you take shadowstrike. Which is 12 inches out of LOS and 18 in LOS. They chew up marines bad. They get 4 attacks on the charge with STR 4. I've had my striking scorpion exarch take out 5 sternguards in one CC round by himself. I play with striking scorpions a lot and I find them to be awesome, they draw a lot of fire.

1)I meant outflank, not infiltrate.

His squad doesn't have an exarch, let alone those powers.

12 Inches out of LOS means they wont get a charge on their first turn unless they're exactly at 12, and roll 6's for moving through cover both times. They usually get shot at least once. At T3 and small squad sizes it doesnt take much, that and your opponent likely will: move away.


2) You said they draw "a lot of fire", unfortunatley, it doesnt take "a lot" to kill them off at T3,

10 marines, double tapping into them -> 14 hit, 9 wound, 3 dead scorpions (assuming no special weapons fired)

How about the 6 sternguard he's contemplating charging then? 6 sternguard, ap 3 rounds, 12 shots, 8 hits, 5 wounds, 5 dead scorpions, or 2.5 if they're in cover (thats half or all of his squad)


3) It is nearly impossible for a SS exarch to kill 5 sternguard in one round by himself. Don't quote this like its likely to happen.

On the charge: 5 attacks, IF you didn't take the claw, 4 with the claw.

Those 5 attacks - 3 will hit on average. of those 3, 1.5 will wound, of those 1.5 against 3+ sternguard armor, you will kill 0.5 sternguard on average
If you use a claw, making it impossible to kill 5 as you only have 4 attacks, you go last, 2.5 attacks hits, ~2 wound, 2 dead sternguard (a better option).


4) Scorpions do not "chew up marines". Banshees "dice up marines".

Scorpion - On the charge has 4 attacks., 3 ish hit, 1.5 wound, ~.5 marines dead.

In all actuality, a full squad of TEN scorpions charging a marine squad, with an exarch, with claw, will kill ~6.5 marines (not too shabby I'd say)

Except that squad costs 212 points.


Banshees on the other hand,

3 Attacks, 2 hits, 0.7 wound, 0.7 dead, each, plus they ALWAYS strike first regardless of cover, etc.
Exarch with 3 attacks, 2 hit, 1.5 or so wound and kill, her squad kills more like 8-9 on average, for the same points.

(These aren't exact number, but the general trends are there, banshees > scorpions versus marines, and they benefit much more from doom)

5) This isn't meant to be a "banshees are better then scorpions, woo!" post, nor a bashing of scorpions, just a reality check. Any unit can do these amazing things you speak of if they roll unbelievable and your opponent fails to make any saves, but looking at the averages, scorpions aren't that great at killing marines, and are much more suited to killing any sort of horde infantry. To be honest, I prefer scorpions to banshees, tactically they're more flexible, they survive longer (although still not long unsupported), and can dish out some hurt.

1.You are correct about the Guardians needing to have a platform. After re-reading the codex in plain print it says "must" be upgraded. Fair enough.
2. As for taking 3 Guardian squads in a 1K game. When youre getting pie plated, flame templated, and hit with multiple no cover rounds from a dropped stern guard squad I cant see taking any less.
3. 4 MC's probably wont make a lot of friends and it may never actually win a battle. The latter concerns me more.

I really appreciate the feedback. Now i need to go add a platform to my Guardain squad and figure out if I should bring Eldrad instead of a farseer with the points I get from the scorpion squad I'll lose for the platform.

TheoryHammer is fun. Now I just need to win a game.

Thanks again.

Kastlerok