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I had a situation arise in the last tournament i was in. So if someone does an emergency disembark due to enamy models near exits, can you then place models within one inch of enamy models during your emergency disembark as long as you are within 2 inches from hull?

While it doesn't explicitly say that you cannot. I would have to say that an emergency disembark would not allow you to embark within an inch of an enemy model as, per the rules, that would put you into CC with the enemy which I doubt is allowed during disembarkation.

The rules for emergency disembarking do not include a prohibition on being within 1" of enemy models. Disembarking is not movement so the proximity restrinctions in those rules do not apply.

one of the reasons you would perform an emergency disembarkation is due to the fact that there are enemy within an inch.
the emergency D lets you override the 1 inch rule so that you can get your models out but with the penalty of not being able to do anything else.

short answer...yes, you can be within 1 inch of an enemy when you emergency disembark.

keep in mind that this does not automatically mean you are in CC though.

Too tired to get into a rules argument atm so I'll post my bit and be done with it.

Page 11 Models in the way:
...a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting.

This basically reads that...you will never be within an inch of an enemy model unless you are assaulting that model/unit.

An emergency disembarkation is still a disembarkation so should follow the rules of disembarkation. Cannot put in impassable terrain, on top of enemy models, or within an inch of an enemy model. The idea behind emergency disembarkation is more to help people with one access point. For instance you could put one marine at the back entrance of a wave serpent and then the embarked models would have to make an emergency disembarkation to deploy. Meaning you can actually deploy them at the front of the serpent instead of the back access point, they just cannot do anything else that turn.

Being within an inch of the model is one of the basic core rules that is never overridden in any way. You cannot be within one inch unless assaulting. Period.

Finally...if you really wanted to read it literally as being able to place them 'anywhere' then you would be able to place them in impassable terrain and on top of enemy models as well, and that of course is just silly.

*edit for spelling*

Axyl wrote:Too tired to get into a rules argument atm so I'll post my bit and be done with it.

Page 11 Models in the way:
...a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting.

This basically reads that...you will never be within an inch of an enemy model unless you are assaulting that model/unit.

An emergency disembarkation is still a disembarkation so should follow the rules of disembarkation. Cannot put in impassable terrain, on top of enemy models, or within an inch of an enemy model. The idea behind emergency disembarkation is more to help people with one access point. For instance you could put one marine at the back entrance of a wave serpent and then the embarked models would have to make an emergency disembarkation to deploy. Meaning you can actually deploy them at the front of the serpent instead of the back access point, they just cannot do anything else that turn then.

Being within an inch of the model is one of the basic core rules that is never overridden in any way. You cannot be withing one inch unless assaulting. Period.

Finally...if you really wanted to read it literally as being able to place them 'anywhere' then you would be able to place them in impassable terrain and on top of enemy models as well, and that of course is just silly.

Ding, ding, ding!!!!
We have a winner!!!!
You are correct.

The rules for emergency disembarking do not include a prohibition on being within 1" of enemy models.

the emergency D lets you override the 1 inch rule so that you can get your models out but with the penalty of not being able to do anything else.

Keep in mind these facts:

--You can't do something unless the rules SAY you can (GW rules are not permissive, they are exclusionary).
--You can't break ANY rule in the BGB unless the "rule breaking" action SPECIFICALLY has a provision stating that it is an exception or your codex allows you to break it.

With that in mind, please explain how you came to these conclusions and cite page #'s for reference.

Eric

The biggest two conflicts that have created the delima, is first, that as stated above, the emergency disembarkment rules staits that if you can't get out with out staying away from an enamy model you may then place models "anywhere within 2 inches of the hull" so in refference to what was written above, the rules do say you can because the word" anywhere" is pretty all inclusive. However, by that reading you would also be able to deploy in impassable terain, as said above, and one person at the tourny brought up that then you may be able to actually emergency disembark off the table ( I personnally thought that one was a little rediculous, but it got alot of attention from the people involved in discussion so thats why i mention it.) The other main delima was that unless someone can reference me somewhere else, it seems like the "can't move within one inch of a model" rule is a restriction to the movement phase, and all sorts of consolodation moves. Please let me know what you guys think. I don't have a stance one way or the other, but I would like to know what the majority thinks.

i move my stance back to neutral.
i hadn't considered the fact that the emergency D lets you simply ignore the having to get out of an access point rule.
the only reason that i have any reservations on the matter is because they threw the anywhere in there.

@MM- the rules say you can.... they say may be placed anywhere. i don't think this was intended though honestly.

They still need to be legally and functionally placed.

kirsanth wrote:They still need to be legally and functionally placed.

So if a land raider is surrounded by, say, two battlewagons and 40 orks, making it impossible for a terminator to come out anywhere withing 2" of the vehicle and not be within and inch of a enemy unit, the squad is obliterated?

Y'know... looking at the actual rule. It sure seems that you can ignore the 1" rule when disembarking.

you need to be MORE than an inch away. So if you manage to completelty surround a vehicle (a lot harder than it seems even against a rhino). There is nothing in the emergency disembar rule that says you can ignore the 1" rule. If it was ok, then it would say something similar to "this is a exception to the normal rule" like the book says in other cases. Emergency disembark lets you try and salvage models because you messed up. As far as impassable terrain same thing. nothing can be in impassable terrain (it is not area terrain it is impassable, the only exception (that word again) are skimmers that can be on impassable terrain) E. disembark lets you ignore the acess points, thats it The models squeeze out of whatever hole they can find. As previously stated GW rule tell you what you CAN do, if it dosent say you can do it then you cant, simple rule to live by. Also remember that you only have 2" (although its within 2" read the within rule, so you actually just have to have a fraction of the base within 2". Disembarking from assault transports 101 boys and girls ) so if you have a small space to try and cram 10 models into youll still likely lose most of them.

Yeah, I read the 'anywhere within 2"' as simply referring to it as an alternative to the usual 'within 2" of an access point'...

While I can certainly see the argument for playing it the other way, I would think that it does not change the usual restriction on being placed within 1" of enemy models or on inappropriate terrain.

Mekniakal wrote:

kirsanth wrote:They still need to be legally and functionally placed.

So if a land raider is surrounded by, say, two battlewagons and 40 orks, making it impossible for a terminator to come out anywhere withing 2" of the vehicle and not be within and inch of a enemy unit, the squad is obliterated?

In reference to this:

If this happens you just don't disembark. They remain in the land raider. If the vehicle is destroyed and they are surrounded like this then yes they are auto killed. If the vehicle explodes then they just appear in the crater of where the vehicle used to be.

usernamesareannoying wrote:@MM- the rules say you can.... they say may be placed anywhere. i don't think this was intended though honestly.

...but it does not specifically say that you can disregard the 1" within an enemy rule. If you are able to break a rule witha second rule, the second rule must be specific. "Anywhere" is general enough that it should not be presumed to mean "within 1" of an enemy model). It SHOULD be presumed to mean that you can measure 2" away from the fronto of the Rhino, rather than an access point, as that does not break any rule EXCEPT for the one you're told you're allowed to break.

That make sense? Did I word it right?
Note: Those 2 are sincere questions, not smart-assery. LOL

To those who think you CAN emergency disembark within 1" of an enemy model:

Do you have to disembark with your models in coherency? "Anywhere" could be used to mean that they don't have to be in coherency as easily as it could be used to mean that they CAN be within 2" of an enemy model.


Eric

magical memories, your last point is exactly right. But the coherancy rule is a movment phase rule. Where does it say they must be placed within coherancy when emergency disembarking. It's just like when taking casualties from shooting and removing that cause the unit to start the turn out of coherancy, there is no effect of being out of coherancy until the end of your movement phase. Basically this thread has taught me that there is as much confusion and disagreement on the wording of the rules. It is really all based on your interpretation, as you said rules need to be specific, the word " anywhere " can be read specific or not. If you read it specific, then it does overrule the within one inch of a madel, because it specifically say's "Anywhere". However if you read anywhere more generically then you have to obide by all other rules? Why do we always act as though we are suprised at these issues of ambiguity? This is still games work shop right ?

Uh I read the rules and would have to say they are pretty clear.

"Models cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy."

An emergency disembarkation is still a disembark as stated in the text. "if even this disembarkation..."

1. Units cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy
2. An emergency disembarkation is a disembark
soooo
No you can't disembark within 1" of an enemy even if it is an emergency disembark.

Timmah wrote:Uh I read the rules and would have to say they are pretty clear.

"Models cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy."

An emergency disembarkation is still a disembark as stated in the text. "if even this disembarkation..."

1. Units cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy
2. An emergency disembarkation is a disembark
soooo
No you can't disembark within 1" of an enemy even if it is an emergency disembark.

Was about to say exactly this, good thing I looked up one post

"if even this disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark" Why would it be impossible? Because the vehicle is completely surrounded by impassible terrain and/or enemy models. Emergency disembark is there for if your access points are covered, so you can deploy somewhere without access points instead. It is not there to allow you to do silly gak like disembark ontop of enemy models.

The only situations in which the PAX must disembark is when the vehicle explodes or is wrecked. If it explodes, the PAX are placed where the vehicle was and vave no problems about finding a place to stand. If the vehicle is wrecked, the vehicle is now a piece of terrain and the PAX may be placed on top of the former vehicle in an emergency disembark if there is no other convenient space.

JCarter wrote: If the vehicle is wrecked, the vehicle is now a piece of terrain

It doesn't become a piece of terrain until after the squad has disembarked.

It can't, as terrain (with the sole exception of buildings) doesn;t have access points, or rules allowing models to embark or disembark from it.

JCarter wrote:The only situations in which the PAX must disembark is when the vehicle explodes or is wrecked. If it explodes, the PAX are placed where the vehicle was and vave no problems about finding a place to stand. If the vehicle is wrecked, the vehicle is now a piece of terrain and the PAX may be placed on top of the former vehicle in an emergency disembark if there is no other convenient space.

Page 67: when a vehicle becomes wrecked passengers must disembark and THEN the vehicle becomes a wreck (the wording is very clear in the rulebook), so disembarking passengers cannot be placed directly on top of the wreck.



Edit: Gah! Insaniak beat me to it.

I see no rules that prohibit infantry models from being on top of a vehicle (even if it is not exploded). Could someone point me to the page number?

pg.67 that yakface just shown. Look above, they FIRST must disembark....

Then look up the disembarking rule

Only in emergency disembarking does the rule state that they do not need a 'door' to exit the vehicle, and instead use any point on the vehicle.

So, again on pg. 67, you must FIRST disembark the vehicle.

Nothing in the rules for disembarking prohibits placing the models on top of the transport. This means that you can disembark on top of the vehicle BEFORE it becomes a wreck.

Please help me if I'm missing some rule which prohibits this.

Democratus wrote:Nothing in the rules for disembarking prohibits placing the models on top of the transport. This means that you can disembark on top of the vehicle BEFORE it becomes a wreck.

Please help me if I'm missing some rule which prohibits this.

You're never allowed to put models on top of each other.

I agree with Insaniak, the Yak, and the robotic pirate.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Democratus wrote:Nothing in the rules for disembarking prohibits placing the models on top of the transport. This means that you can disembark on top of the vehicle BEFORE it becomes a wreck.

Please help me if I'm missing some rule which prohibits this.

You're never allowed to put models on top of each other.

Page reference, please.

This rule existed in the 4th edition rulebook. I have not been able to find it in 5th.

Its in many places.. You cannot move through enemy, friendly models or impassable terrain.. models are treated as impassable for deep strike purposes..

Seriously you think models can occupy the same space in 40k?

The real question in this rule is that "can you get a judge to side with you being as this goes against 10 years of 40k"

It's in no place, unfortunately. One model on top of another does not "occupy the same space". That would be one model inside another. Moving onto a model is also not moving "through" a friendly model. However this is irrelevant as disembarking is not movement.

There are rules which make it impractical to place models on top of a vehicle, such as movement. But since the vehicle in question is going to be destroyed after the disembark is done this won't be a problem.

The real question isn't about judges. It's about RAW and what the rules say, since this is the rules forum (I think). I am trying to ascertain what the rules have to say about this situation. How a local tourney, the LGS, or my league would handle it isn't germaine.

5th edition is different from 4th in many ways. Some plyayers have a tough time adjusting to the shift as they continue to hang onto old conventions.

Models cannot move or be placed within 1" unless assaulting.
When assaulting you can touch the base (only touch, not overlap!) bases.

shrug