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Ok, so I have been playing at this store for a couple of months now, and I see this guy running 2x 10 man Devi squads with 4 ML each. At first I am thinking, why pass up the Las fire powe, everybody here is running heavy tanks? Then I see them in action. Four ML concentrating fire on one target usualy meant dead tanks pretty fast. Then the realy nasty side came out. Four ML concentrating fire on infantry, not with frag, but with krak. Correct me if I am wrong (chances are good as I haven't been playing long), but there isn't any infantry that can survive a krak shoot. There were instant deaths all over the place. Take a look at the stats and think about it.

ML S8 AP3 (30 pts ea) Vs LC S9 AP2 (70 pts ea)

We are talking about 40 pts dif ea. Thas a savings of 120 pts per unit. I don't know about ya'll, but I think I will be selling my Las Marines, and stocking up on MLs.

What do you guys think?

terminators will have a field day. and MLs will have a hard time cracking av 13-14 tanks. but in most terms i would prefer an ML over a las cannon on a DEV SQUAD. i think las cannons deserve to be on something else.

Consider the new vehicle damage chart. If two hits result in damage, the vehicle is destroyed. Your chances of pen against av 13 is not too bad @ S8 w 4 shots and one hitting on 2. How many Landraiders will you really see in a typical 15-1800 pt game? Normaly no more than one. Imagine all 8 ML shooting on LR and 2 of them are hitting on 2s. I like the AP 2 of the las don't get me wrong, and I certaintly would not look past putting a TL Las on a Razorback. I just can't see eating the 120 pts on the Dev squads.

I think the Termis having a field day would be true against las cannons as well when you consider the ways they would most likely meet up.

Scenario 1: 5-10 Termis TP in, open fire w/8-20 shots from SBs, then they take fire from the surviving Devs in the next turn this is were the Las could really clean house. In a 10 man Dev squad, all four Las will probably survive the shooting round from 5 termis, but against 10, odds clearly go down hill. If you focus two squads of Las Devs on them, you will likley wipe them out, but you have also spent 240 pts more on Las cannons alone. Biggest point being, I don's think that Termi survivablity against Las vs ML is much different either way.

Scenario 2: Termis move 6" per turn toward Dev Squad from distant TP point and get chopped down slowly.

Scenario 3: ML disable / destroy LR, and termis get out and walk (see scenario 2)

Again I like las cannons as much as the next Adeptus Astartes, just not on Dev Squads.

K_Dickenson wrote:Consider the new vehicle damage chart. If two hits result in damage, the vehicle is destroyed. Your chances of pen against av 13 is not too bad @ S8 w 4 shots and one hitting on 2. How many Landraiders will you really see in a typical 15-1800 pt game? Normaly no more than one. Imagine all 8 ML shooting on LR and 2 of them are hitting on 2s. I like the AP 2 of the las don't get me wrong, and I certaintly would not look past putting a TL Las on a Razorback. I just can't see eating the 120 pts on the Dev squads.

Have i missed a memo or something? why are some of your devs hitting on 2s? why do two hits result in a vehicle being destroyed?

You have a 1/3 chance of destroying a vehicle on a penetrating hit and no chance on a glancing.

Given a squad of devs with 4MLs firing at a predator say. 2.66 hit, 0.44 penetrate, 0.14 destroy. I wouldnt call 14% a good chance.

You also have a 0% chance of actually destroying a landraider, so if you only bring MLs youre going to have some trouble

I run into this problem too with my IG. But remember that a glancing 5 or 6 is a weapon destroyed or immobile. Once all the weapons are gone and then it becomes immobile it is destroyed. The worst off you can get (if you glance) is that it can't shoot next turn. Which is a bonus right there. So I opt for the ML myself. Less points (so more of them) and now with the rules of everything under the blast being hit, it makes for a good horde killer. pPlus, Termie players will roll the dreaded "1" if you make them roll enough saves.

Well, long range anti-tank weapons (non-melta weapons) are worse than in the 4th edition thanks to the new armor penetration table and the possibility to get cover saves.

Lascannon are clearly superior than missile launchers. That's why they are more expensive. Small blasts are a little better these days but S8 is a little worse for AT duties.

Points costs aren't everything. It is at least as important whether a given tool gets the job done reliably. What good is that saving when you don't destroy anything? Let's not forget, there's other 2+ saves too, such as some MC's, Broadsides etc. - and I wouldn't want to duel with them with AP 3 guns.

K_Dickenson wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong (chances are good as I haven't been playing long), but there isn't any infantry that can survive a krak shoot.

Correction: Everyone can survive a krak shot, he just needs to be in cover, and that shouldn't be so difficult. Some have ++ saves (deamons), some are immune to instant death (Nids), some are resilient through numbers (Guard, Orks, Gaunts), so krak isn't a solution.

There were instant deaths all over the place.

And that is different from lascannon how?

ML S8 AP3 (30 pts ea) Vs LC S9 AP2 (70 pts ea)

We are talking about 40 pts dif ea. Thas a savings of 120 pts per unit. I don't know about ya'll, but I think I will be selling my Las Marines, and stocking up on MLs.

What do you guys think?

That I don't understand your calculation. 40 x 4, isn't that 160 points saved? Does a single lascannon really cost 70 points?!?

I don't play space marines, but if i do i will probably take missiles with tactical marines cause they are FREE!

IMO Lascannons are far too expensive in a dev squad. I take ML in the Dev squads and Lascannons in the tac squads. Lascannons have limited effectiveness against tanks anymore (2 attack bikes with mm are my current favorite for these), but it's nice to have a couple around for Oblits and 2+save Monstrous Creatures. Otherwise, 4 blast templates are great for torrent of fire attacks on squads and the krak missile is just about as good as lascannons against MEQ, transports, 3+ save montrous creatures, nob bikers, plague marines, etc.

I am increasingly unimpressed with both Lascannons and missiles in 5th.

Missiles are a joke at taking out AV13+, and for the points, Lascannons really do are not bringing a lot to the table.

I find myself using Autocannons for AV10-12 and *trying* to pop AV13+ with my Lascannons, but usually have to bring meltas to bear.

I still can not bring myself to completely abandon lascannons, but i may have to if they keep on letting me down.

Okay I am having trouble coming to terms with 5th still so here aresome stupid questions:

Does the Blast scattering affect missle launchers and plasma cannons?

If it does, do they get some sort of different roll against tanks? I have almost completely ceased to use missile launchers because I am so confused.

Help anyone?

Shadow Nugz wrote:Okay I am having trouble coming to terms with 5th still so here aresome stupid questions:

Does the Blast scattering affect missle launchers and plasma cannons?

If it does, do they get some sort of different roll against tanks? I have almost completely ceased to use missile launchers because I am so confused.

Help anyone?

Please ask these questions in You Make da Call, which is the appropriate forum. Let's keep the thread on topic.


Thank you.

Regwon wrote:
Have i missed a memo or something? why are some of your devs hitting on 2s?

The Sergeant's signum in the dev squads allow for 1 other model to shoot at 2's

K_Dickenson wrote: Ok, so I have been playing at this store for a couple of months now, and I see this guy running 2x 10 man Devi squads with 4 ML each. At first I am thinking, why pass up the Las fire powe, everybody here is running heavy tanks? Then I see them in action. Four ML concentrating fire on one target usualy meant dead tanks pretty fast.

Mathhammer time. Chance of 4 Krack shots killing a vehicle, being fired by BS4 troops...

AV 10 = 47% when there is no cover, 27% with cover
AV 11 = 38% no cover, 20% with cover
AV 12 = 27% no cover, 14% with cover
AV 13 = 14% no cover, 7 with cover
AV 14 = almost no chance due to not beign able to penetrate and having to kill the vehicle though multiple weapon destroyed / immobalized results.

Same numbers for las cannons

AV 10 = 56% when there is no cover, 32% with cover
AV 11 = 47% no cover, 27% with cover
AV 12 = 38% no cover, 20% with cover
AV 13 = 27% no cover, 14 with cover
AV 14 = 14% no cover, 7 with cover

Now these number only consider results that actually kill the vehicle and don't take into account damaging hits, however the number of damaging hits is going to be directly proportional here anyway. So if you are thinking about the differences between missile launchers and las cannons there are several things to consider. Las cannons are better against vehicles by a moderate margine (see above numbers). Missile launchers are AP3 where as las cannons are AP2. Missile launchers have the option of firing frag missiles. Missile launchers cost less than las cannons.

Then the realy nasty side came out. Four ML concentrating fire on infantry, not with frag, but with krak. Correct me if I am wrong (chances are good as I haven't been playing long), but there isn't any infantry that can survive a krak shoot. There were instant deaths all over the place.

I think you may need to take a look at the instant death rules again. Many people misunderstand how they work. Instant death only does 2 things. It makes it so that you do not get a "feel no pain" save and it means that IF you take 1 wound, you lose all the wounds you had remaining. The person shooting the instant death weapon still has to roll to hit, they still have to roll to wound, and the target still gets an armor or cover save (unless the ap or special rules of the weapon keep them from getting one). Shooting an instant death weapon at models that have only 1 wound and don't have feel no pain is no different the shooting a non-instant death weapon at them.

Yea, Lascannons in a tac squad is cheap. I like to put HB in Dev squads and lascanons in ta squads.
Though I too have been using ML more because it is free on the tac and if there is a good clump, you can use the blast, or just the krak(no blast, direct hit).

In regards to the instant deaths comment, I was talking about multi-wound modles (i.e. Crissis Suit Commander, Marine Commanders... etc.). As long as they are toughnes 4 or under they are gonna die when wounded, and if thier armor save is 4 or higher they don't get a saving through. So if you are playing tau, eldar, IG, and the like you are gonna' hate a max missile devi squad.

The Sarge wrote:I run into this problem too with my IG. But remember that a glancing 5 or 6 is a weapon destroyed or immobile. Once all the weapons are gone and then it becomes immobile it is destroyed. The worst off you can get (if you glance) is that it can't shoot next turn. Which is a bonus right there. So I opt for the ML myself. Less points (so more of them) and now with the rules of everything under the blast being hit, it makes for a good horde killer. pPlus, Termie players will roll the dreaded "1" if you make them roll enough saves.

Sarge raises a really good point I did not. The harasment from the missile launchers even against 14 av kept alot of firepower from serving any real purpose. I supose a landraider that never shoots could server as a potential moving wall providing cover to troops; a very expensive moving wall.

Shadow Nugz wrote:Okay I am having trouble coming to terms with 5th still so here aresome stupid questions:

Does the Blast scattering affect missle launchers and plasma cannons?

If it does, do they get some sort of different roll against tanks? I have almost completely ceased to use missile launchers because I am so confused.

Help anyone?

All blasts scatter. Even missile launchers and plasma cannons. But missile launchers have the option of firing Frag or Krak. Frag uses a blast marker, and so uses the scatter rules. Krak don't use the blast rules, and fire a single shot instead. And if you were firing a Missile Launcher against a tank, you'd always choose Krak and roll to hit as normal.

I like missile launchers. Against most infantry there's no real difference between them and lascannons, and you've still got very good chances against light vehicles. On the other hand, lascannons have an advantage against the 2+ saves and heavy armour. On the other hand, if you have enough AT already, save the points and take the missile launchers.

For clarification, for Tactical Squads Missile Launchers are free and Lascannons are a 10 point upgrade. However, in devastator squad, Missile Launchers become 15pts and Lascannons 35pts. That's a pretty big increase for Lascannon Devastators...:/

Sarge raises a really good point I did not. The harasment from the missile launchers even against 14 av kept alot of firepower from serving any real purpose. I supose a landraider that never shoots could server as a potential moving wall providing cover to troops; a very expensive moving wall.

My experience is the exact opposite. AV14 laughs at S8 Ap/2+ all day.

3 BS4 missile launcher shots and 1 BS5 shot on a Dev Squad will average 2.8 hits per turn. Let's call that 3 hits just for simplicity sake.

So it will take two full turns shooting to average one glancing hit on an AV14 vehicle.

Of those glancing hits, 1/3 will actually do anything meaningful (immobilize/weapon destroyed), everything else will simply bounce off as Shaken or Stunned.

So with an average of 3 glancing (remember, we rounded up, so reality is actually even worse!) hits per 6 game turns, you have 50/50 odds of ever doing anything more meaningful than Shaken/Stunned to AV14 with dedicated shooting from your ML Dev squad for the entire game.

Attrition does *not* work if you're relying on non-AP1 glancing hits.

Now let's consider the opportunity cost. A Minimized Dev squad (to save points) is going to lose ~.75-1 ML per casualty. So very, very minimal shooting will cripple the squad. Conversely, a maxed out Dev Squad costs almost as much as a Land Raider, and 1/2 of the models are useless if you are using them in an anti-tank capacity. Furthermore they are completely immobile (unless you want to waste that 60 points spent on heavy weapons).

Dev squads, especially the cheap Missile Devs, are not useless but you cannot afford to make them your primary anti-tank, especially against AV13+. Use them against appropriate targets and you should get a respectable return, but attempting to whittle down an AV14 vehicle is a desperation tactic and should only be employed as such.

I switched from 6 men las/plas units to 10 men units with missile launcher and melta due to versatility. ML have a long range and the blast mode can kill infantry, while the melta (combat squadded) is good vs high toughness creatures and tanks that come too close.

Whats wrong with getting a landraider? You spend I think 20 more points (than a 10man 4ML dev squad) but you get AV14 & two TL lascannon shots. Also, stick EA on there to make it even hardier & a MM just because you can.

Lascannons - tacticals. Missile launchers - scout sqauds. If I had a choice, both are scoring. Both cost soo much less.

K_Dickenson wrote:ML S8 AP3 (30 pts ea) Vs LC S9 AP2 (70 pts ea)

MLs are only 15 and LC 30, making for a saving of 80 pts. per squad, not 120.

augustus5 wrote:

K_Dickenson wrote:ML S8 AP3 (30 pts ea) Vs LC S9 AP2 (70 pts ea)

MLs are only 15 and LC 30, making for a saving of 80 pts. per squad, not 120.

All appolagies for the points error. I wrote this on the fly while glancing at an old list where the dev squad was two ML and two Las... hence the 70pt typo... thank you for the correction. It makes a huge difference in considering list building options.

I cant speak for BS4 Space Marines, but I can assure you that Lascannons just dont work well anymore for my BS3 Guard. So frustrating to deal with Arm14 especially in the current rules. I've pretty much switched over to three teams of min-sized drop veteran squads with x3 meltas each. Lascannons arent reliable for dealing with high arm anymore but a trio of meltas in the right spot work just fine. Maybe that'll change in the new Guard codex, if they get substantially cheaper.

Missile launchers are just jank, frankly. The Autocannon costs the same and is more effective than a krak missile at shooting arm10-11 transports (more shots). And more effective than a frag missile at anti-infantry shooting. Sure the AC cant penetrate a marines 3+ save... but how often is a squad not getting a cover save these days? Also are you really going to have enough Krak Missile shots to try to take down a squad of Marines? Even if you do, how many points did you spend for your trouble?

I think a big part of the problem is just that it's so pathetically easy to get cover saves now. Sure, LOS is easier so you'll have more targets than in 4th... but anti-MEQ MLs/Lascannons are expensive enough already without half of those shots failing to kill due to cover saves.

Lascannons and missile launchers are both a waste of points for tactical squads.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:missile launchers are a waste of points for tactical squads.

free=waste of points?

Could you give us a little more help like why they are a waste of points for tactical squads?

Green Blow Fly wrote:Lascannons and missile launchers are both a waste of points for tactical squads.

G

For an 8 man squad with 4 weapons, you pay 198 for MLs, 278 for LCs, or about 40% more.

That's a lot more. But based on Phoenix's numbers, the LCs are almost 100% better against AV13. But then, he's ignoring shaken and stunned results, which are not to be dismissed entirely.

It might be more useful to compare 8x Devs with 4x MLs (198 points), to 6x Devs with 3x LCs (211 points). That, or adjust the results for points cost.

In 4e I think it was pretty well a given that Heavy Bolters and Missile Launchers were the only things worth taking in Dev squads. These days it's not as clearcut.

Heavy Bolters are upcosted, but still a good option.

Plasma Cannons are actually pretty scary these days, and don't cost too much.

Ultimately I think what it comes down to, is that a 198 point squad is managable. A 278 point squad starts to get unwieldy in cost, and a major target for counter attack.

Missile Launchers are flexible, can do good work on most any infantry, and can also go after vehicles. It's not that they're good at going after vehicles... It's just that they can. They're a good choice for a list that can take on anything. Yeah, you'll be sad against Land Raiders... And Lascannons will be sad about horde orks.

Another nail into the ML's coffin, Autocannons do all anti-tank better with the exception of AV 14.

BS3 Autocannon (percentage of doing something)
AV 10: 66%
AV 11: 50%
AV 12: 33%
AV 13: 16%

BS3 Missile Launcher
AV 10: 42%
AV 11: 33%
AV 12: 25%
AV 13: 16%
AV 14: 8%

Unfortunately there are no Steel Legion Autocannon models

Green Blow Fly wrote:Lascannons and missile launchers are both a waste of points for tactical squads.

G

Considering ones free that doesn't even make sense.



I use 6 missile launchers on tacticals in my army. It gives me a tremendous amount of anti light armor, heavy troop, and light troop firepower for no additional cost. I may not be able to pop av 13-14 particularly well, but en-masse I don't have much of an issue with 13. As for av 14, demolishers don't take assaults well and land raiders usually need to move within walking melta range to unleash their cargo. I play a lot of sit and shoot armies, and a fair number of horde armies. Lascanons don't exactly help you tear down a green tide or a swarm of hormugaunts. They don't help much with broadsides either considering they'll be caked in shield drones.

Missile Launchers are flexible, can do good work on most any infantry, and can also go after vehicles. It's not that they're good at going after vehicles... It's just that they can. They're a good choice for a list that can take on anything. Yeah, you'll be sad against Land Raiders... And Lascannons will be sad about horde orks.

Pretty much.

Another nail into the ML's coffin, Autocannons do all anti-tank better with the exception of AV 14.

Marines can't take those and IG isn't exactly starving for anti tank firepower in any event.