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I know its been said a million times, and I play guard so my opinion is totally biased, but this is a perfect example of why kill points are lame and Victory Points should still be around.

I played my Drop Troop Guard army, which consists of MSU special weapon drop squads against an Iron Warriors army tonight and here is a run down of what happened:

Mission: Anhilation, Spearhead Deployment

My Army:
Jungle fighters, drop troops, close order drill, special weapons, hardened vets.

Command HQ: 4 plasma
Special Weapon Squad: flamer x2, Demo Charge

Infantry platoon 1
Platoon HQ: 4 m.gun
2 x Jungle fighters with flamer and heavy flamer
Infatry Platoon 2
Platoon HQ: 4 m.gun
squad with h.bolter, flamer
squad with a.cannon, flamer

Hardened vets: 3x p.gun, L.cannon
2x Hardened Vets: 3x p.gun

Hellhound

Russ
Demolisher
Bassie

Kill Points: 15

Choas
Demon Prince: wings, warp time, other gear I can't recall

Chaos Marines: Rhino, Icon, Flamer, P.Gun, Fist
Chaos Marines: Rhino, Icon, Flamer, M.Gun, Fist
Chaos Marines: Icon, Flamer, P.Gun, Fist
Bezerkers: Fist

Defiler
Land Raider (for bezerkers)

Kill Points: 9

I go first, deploy only my Bassie and Russ behind cover, take pot shots and kill a few marines from a chaos marine squad not in a vehicle.

He deploys everything on the board moves towards me, fires at my bassie with his defiler and misses.

My turn two I role very well for reserves and everything comes on but a hardened vet squad. Melta command squad pops the LR. The other melta squad pops the defiler and then they run to the corner of the board to hide for the rest of the game and give each other high fives on their awesomeness. Hellhound, plasma command squad and a vet squad drop the Bezerkers that were in the LR down to two models. Droping jungle fighter squads flamer a marine squad down to two models and kill the icon, he fails morale and they run off the board. Russ and Bassie blast a few more marines, Demolisher misses. Demo charge squad throws the demo charge and it scatters onto my own squad, killing most of them. Way to go, Elway. Hardened vets outflank onto the wrong table edge and move into position to fire next turn. My two heavy weapon toting infantry squads hide behind the Russ and the Bassie knowing they are only a liability in anhilation missions.

His turn he jumps his chaos marine units out of their rhinos, blasts some of my drop troops off of the board. His demon prince charges a command squad and kills them, Bezerkers combo charge a vet and command squad and proceed to not kill them for three game turns! It was annoying, my boys kept slugging away and passing morale checks and I could not shoot the damn bezerkers because of it.

His marines were in nice formations for some pie now after disembarking and I blast them down in size. My last vet squad drops on, and in combination with a jungle figher squad, wipes out what's left of a marine squad. The hardened vets with the las cannon take out a rhino. The hellhound incinerates a few marines, dropping the last squad down to 3. A vet squad drops a rhino with their plasma guns.

His demon prince charges my Demolisher which was just barely in range (I am crap at guessing ranges) and destroys it. His remaining marines just barely get in range of my hellhound with a melta gun and nuke it. His Demon Prince is now dangerously close to my corner where my russ, bassie and two infatry squads are hiding out.

I fire everything I have at the Demon prince and drop him down to 1 wound. My plucky little auto cannon gunner took aim and shot the big nasty in the eye, killing him. These guys then proceed to also high five each other, they may have even done a few chest bumps. The bezerkers finally kill the guardsmen they were fighting and consolidate into cover. At this point, he has 4 models left, I have over half my army but he is winning on kill points.

My last shooting phase I drop pie all over, move in all my remaining drop squads to shoot and manage to kill all but 1 bezerker. The Auto cannon gunner must have used up all his luck though as he had the last shot of the game and rolled a 1 to wound.

We rolled to see if the game would go on and it did not.

End tally: 8 kill points to 8 kill points.

He had 1 model left, I had over half my army, yet we tied.

This system is flawed!!!!

But it was a fun game, if it had been a tourny or a league game, I would have been a little miffed. Victory Points were far superior (says a guard player!). I think 5th ed is still an improvement, but this was just another example of the sucktitude of Kill Points.

A morale victory.

at our LGS we still play VP now and then, it worked out well, no army gained an advantage, and it worked well since it had been done.
hence why WHFB still uses VP

That's a resounding victory to me. You dropped him to the last KP he had with 6 of your own remaining. Rulebook calls this a moral or minor victory, but that's a load of gak! You and your opponent both know that exterminatus was waiting for him in the would-be next turn.
You did well, too bad the KPs fail to recignise this.

Reecius wrote:I think 5th ed is still an improvement, but this was just another example of the sucktitude of Kill Points.

QFT!

A rethink of how IG calculate KPs is almost essential to the next codex. /cross fingers

Yeah I agree, Flag07. If we get fair kill point rules, IG will be great, because in the other two missions we kick ass! With loads of scoring units and tough tanks IG can be a force, but kill points are a swift kick to the nuts.

Thanks for the morale support though fellas. If I could have just killed that last stupid bezerker it would have been a W.

i do hate KP at times, allthough, it has worked for me in the past
was 5 - 5 with someone, he fired with his strangler fex, scattered and killed his own gaunts, making it 6-5 to me lol, KP wise we would have had a draw.

I don't like kill points but I was even less a fan of victory points.

Why is that? Victory points were fair, both sides started out with the same amount of possible points to give up.

I am curious to hear another opinion as every way I look at it it is a flawed system.

each model has a points cost, VP was worked out with that in mind, meaning a fair game at all times.
if they ever changed WHFB to KP i would sell my lizards

One good quality of kill points is that they are simple. Also, they don't require you to scribble out VP throughout or after the game (not hard, but it can slow things down)
It's no precious diamond, but there are a few carbon crystals in the huge, ugly lump of coal that is KP.

I agree its simpler, but how can you ever say a 5 man, 30 point IG remnants squad, is worth as many kill points as a nob biker squad? Or a Land Raider, or a 10 Man Assault Terminator squad? (Not that you were saying that, Illeix, just speaking in general terms here)

When one army can give up double the points another army can give up, and each kill point is easier to get, it is flat out, no questions asked, unfair. Dark Eldar get hosed too as they tend to have a lot of units.

It is just silly, VP's were fair, both sides could give up the exact same amount of points.

The way it is now, if you play a high KP army, you pretty much have to table your opponant to win.

one thing that annoys me is that i would like to run deff koptas in 3 teams of 1.
if i do that in a KP game thats 3 fast attack choices, each one only having 2 wounds and a save of 4+, meaning they will be the 1st things to go.

@Reecius: I know. It's completely unfair. I was just trying to list some good points of KP. They are simple, and punish high power/low man squads.
But along the way KPs destroy half the lists out there. Not cool.
I play by VP when possible.

On morale victory: i had a warm feeling imagining that lone Berserker gloating over his fallen foe and turning to look at a battlefield's worth of Imperial Guns aiming at him... Talk about cold sweat

Yeha, it was funny, we were all laughing our asses off when he took an army's worth of shooting and didn't die. All his buddies dropped as ordnance came down around him but he made it. It made for a good gaming momnet, but was annoying none the less.

I think tournies should stick to VP's for the time being, unless they adjust KP's for IG, DE and similar armies.

And in fairness, Ozzymandias did make a point a while back that I think is worth mentioning, and that is Kill Points counters the ability for some armies to take loads of scoring units, making the other two missions easier for them, although it is a bit drastic of a correction.

Except to be a good scoring unit, that unit needs:

1> A decent delivery system.
2> Ability to get the occupants off the objective off it (usually via asssault)
3> Ability to hold the objective against enemy assault.
4> Ability to keep contesting units (tanks, fast skimmers, drop pods, etc) more than 3" away from the objective, particularly in the bottom of turns.

Guard have a ton of scoring units... that are fragile, dont have the best delivery systems, cant melee, etc.

Reecius wrote:I know its been said a million times, and I play guard so my opinion is totally biased, but this is a perfect example of why kill points are lame and Victory Points should still be around.

I played my Drop Troop Guard army, which consists of MSU special weapon drop squads against an Iron Warriors army tonight and here is a run down of what happened:

Mission: Anhilation, Spearhead Deployment

My Army:
Jungle fighters, drop troops, close order drill, special weapons, hardened vets.

Command HQ: 4 plasma
Special Weapon Squad: flamer x2, Demo Charge

Infantry platoon 1
Platoon HQ: 4 m.gun
2 x Jungle fighters with flamer and heavy flamer
Infatry Platoon 2
Platoon HQ: 4 m.gun
squad with h.bolter, flamer
squad with a.cannon, flamer

Hardened vets: 3x p.gun, L.cannon
2x Hardened Vets: 3x p.gun

Hellhound

Russ
Demolisher
Bassie

Kill Points: 15

You miscalculated your Kill Points. Each IG independent character (you have 3) is worth a KP of his own, plus 1 for his "retinue." You've got a total of 18, not 15.

It's worse than you thought! That single Berserker DEFEATED you!

Reecius is pissed cause his game was a draw due to KP's and now he finds out he actually lost...

Sometimes Janthkin it might be better to keep these things to yourself!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:Reecius is pissed cause his game was a draw due to KP's and now he finds out he actually lost...

Sometimes Janthkin it might be better to keep these things to yourself!

He's lucky. Usually I charge large amounts of money to tell people bad things.

3 more months of this nonsense. I'm looking forward to getting my Guard back out again.

Seriously! I put my traitor guard on hold till the new codex comes out. I really, really want to get back to building it.

I'll be interested to see your and HBMC's review of the new codex when it comes out.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I could b wrong, I usually am, but the 5th edition book talks about Victory Points. I don' have the book in front of me, but it says to use Victory Points to resolve draws. If I'm wrong then ignore me. Also nice Battle Report.

CoachNitro wrote:I could b wrong, I usually am, but the 5th edition book talks about Victory Points. I don' have the book in front of me, but it says to use Victory Points to resolve draws. If I'm wrong then ignore me. Also nice Battle Report.

Pg. 300. Victory points are offered as an option, if you want one, to add further refinement. But it's certainly something to agree on before the battle.

THen all IG players should make that agreement.

I play SM and I say SUCK IT IN!!........ nah I do reckon its unfair.

CoachNitro wrote:THen all IG players should make that agreement.

VPs, as offered in the BGB, are only useful if you can get a Draw on KPs, first. As noted above, poor Reecius didn't actually achieve a draw, owing to the stupidity of having IG officers count as ICs with retinues.

Holy crap! hahaha, that is even worse! Kill points, how I hate you! That means I tied my other game against orks in kill points. what a load of gak!

I'll update the league accordingly... Your points won't change but it makes Dave go up a point.

Which means I'm now in last place all by myself.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Wait, I actually still beat Dave, he only killed one command squad which means I still won by two kill points, hahaha, that would have been crappy to lose another game when only one model was left on the table!

the Cadian 501st Siege Regiment salutes you!