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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 02:22:42
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Infiltrating Broodlord
New York
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Ok I have 2 questions:
So what's the deal with the Waagh! special rule and 5th edition?
The Ork codex was released during 4th edition so the rules make perfect sense for 4th edition.
However the problem comes with 5th edition the Fleet special rule was changed so that you no longer roll a D6 to see how far you move. Now we do that through running, so that Waagh! only grants fleet special rule in it's current form correct?
So here's the big problem...Ghazghkull Thraka's special rule says you always count as rolling a 6 for the Waagh! movement during his special Waagh!
How does that translate to 5th edition?
By RAW my interpretation is that this is one of those cases where the new rulebook made an ability/upgrade pointless. Since you don't roll a D6 for fleet anymore and RUN is not at all mentioned in the entry.
I am a new Ork player, I'd like to point out and that was my interpretation of the rules for him. Meaning I still have to roll a D6 for run even if using Ghazghkull's Waagh!, However today I played versus an Ork player that was actually using Ghazghkull and I was playing space marines. And he called upon his special waagh! and claimed that he gets to make his normal move in the movement phase, and then move another automatic 6" in the shooting phase + assault me as normal.
And we had an hour long debate on this. Because I stress that nowhere does it say that Ghazghkull gets a 6" RUN move automatically. And everyone at the store debated that this is how it worked in 4th edition which I admit makes PERFECT sense 'in 4th edition' but not in 5th.
So really im sure this must have come up before and if not enlighten me because in the end we just rolled off to solve the problem 1-2 my way, 3-6 his way. He won the roll and subsequently the game as I was NOT counting on Ghazghkull to have a 6" move in the shooting phase from an automatic RUN that is never mentioned in his entry.
We also checked the FAQ and there's no mention of this. So either GW believes the rule is crystal clear or they assume everyone will play by RAI, including new Ork players like myself.
The second question is how long does Ghazghkull's Waagh! last. Originally from reading his entry I thought 'all following player turn' meant that once you use his waagh everyone has fleet until the game ends. Or does this imply that it is only for the entirety of that 1 turn?
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1. Tyranids - 15,000 pts
2. Chaos Space Marines - 7,100 pts
3. Space Marines - 6,000 pts
4. Orks - 5,900 pts
5. Dark Angels - 4,300 pts
6. Necrons - 4,600 pts
7. Grey Knights - 3,200 pts
8. Eldar - 3,400 pts
9. Blood Angels - 3,200 pts
10. Chaos Daemons - 3,200 pts
11. Tau Empire - 3,000 pts
12. Space Wolves - 2,400 pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 02:41:32
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Been Around the Block
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As I underestand it at my FLGS they typically count it as having them all run up to 6 inches.
And only for the one turn.
-Scott
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 03:11:05
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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In 5th edition all units can run, not just those with Fleet of Foot.
So when an Ork player declares a Waagh! during his Shooting phase, s/he is conferring Fleet of Foot on any units that runs, and any Ork Infantry unit that runs in this Shooting phase can also make an assault move in the following Assault phase.
Because this Fleet of Foot enhanced Running move is enabled by the Waaagh! rule, it is properly Waaagh! movement.
Edit:
Incidentally, the rules are crystal clear, your friend was right, and he won the game fair and square.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/03/19 03:21:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 04:00:15
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Infiltrating Broodlord
New York
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The rules does not affect the normal waaagh as it still follows all the 4th edition rules.
What it seems like everyone is saying is that Fleet = RUN + Assault
instead of Fleet = Assault after using RUN special rule.
It isn't crystal clear to me that Fleet did anything beyond allowing you to assault after doing a RUN move, that normally prevents you from assaulting. Thus I've always viewed it as 2 separate rules. Not 1 rule and then another rule that includes the first rule plus a couple others.
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1. Tyranids - 15,000 pts
2. Chaos Space Marines - 7,100 pts
3. Space Marines - 6,000 pts
4. Orks - 5,900 pts
5. Dark Angels - 4,300 pts
6. Necrons - 4,600 pts
7. Grey Knights - 3,200 pts
8. Eldar - 3,400 pts
9. Blood Angels - 3,200 pts
10. Chaos Daemons - 3,200 pts
11. Tau Empire - 3,000 pts
12. Space Wolves - 2,400 pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 04:13:20
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Nurglitch wrote:Because this Fleet of Foot enhanced Running move is enabled by the Waaagh! rule, it is properly Waaagh! movement.
And that's where the rules are unclear.
Is it only a 'Fleet of Foot enhanced Running move' if you actually charge something? If you don't, you don't use Fleet... and the rules only reference Fleet, not Running.
The interaction between Waaagh movement and the Run is not clear.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 04:24:16
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Infiltrating Broodlord
New York
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insaniak wrote:Nurglitch wrote:Because this Fleet of Foot enhanced Running move is enabled by the Waaagh! rule, it is properly Waaagh! movement.
And that's where the rules are unclear.
Is it only a 'Fleet of Foot enhanced Running move' if you actually charge something? If you don't, you don't use Fleet... and the rules only reference Fleet, not Running.
The interaction between Waaagh movement and the Run is not clear.
Thank you i have been feeling like im the only one who sees that there's quite a missing link there since RUN was introduced and Fleet was changed in 5th.
At least now I know i'm not crazy if other people can see that there's an issue there as well.
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1. Tyranids - 15,000 pts
2. Chaos Space Marines - 7,100 pts
3. Space Marines - 6,000 pts
4. Orks - 5,900 pts
5. Dark Angels - 4,300 pts
6. Necrons - 4,600 pts
7. Grey Knights - 3,200 pts
8. Eldar - 3,400 pts
9. Blood Angels - 3,200 pts
10. Chaos Daemons - 3,200 pts
11. Tau Empire - 3,000 pts
12. Space Wolves - 2,400 pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 04:37:44
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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insaniak:
No, the interaction is clear.
When the Waaagh! rule is invoked in the Shooting phase, when running happens, all friendly Ork infantry units gain the Fleet of Foot rule.
If a unit does run, then they can assault in the following Assault phase thanks to the Waaagh! conferring Fleet of Foot, and this running is Waaagh! movement. If they roll a 1 for it, then the unit takes a wound.
If a unit does not run, then they do not make any Waaagh! movement, nor do they roll a dice for it, and they may assault as normal in the following Assault phase.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/03/19 04:45:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 04:45:44
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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See, that's just it.
In 4th, Fleet granted movement in the shooting phase (hence the Waagh movement roll, and an auto 6 for Ghaz), but now Fleet grants assault after movement. Because of this, there technically is no longer any Waaagh! movement in the shooting phase, but rather it allows the Orks to assault after running.
There is a definate problem with the wording of the Ork dex, in regards to Waaagh! and 5th. GW needs to errata this so there are no more problems.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 04:47:26
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Nurglitch wrote:All friendly Ork infantry units have the Fleet of Foot rule when the Waaagh! rule is invoked in the Shooting phase, when running happens.
Except that the Waaagh rule doesn't reference running at all. You added that yourself.
The unit gains Fleet. The Waaagh rule itself has no direct effect on Running.
If a unit does run, then they can assault in the following Assault phase thanks to the Waaagh! conferring Fleet of Foot, and this running is Waaagh! movement.
Why?
Again, Waaagh does not reference running at all.
It grants Fleet of Foot, and then goes on to refer to 'this' Waaagh movement, as being related specifically to Fleet.
The problem, as already covered, being that Fleet no longer grants movement.
The Waaagh rule is specifically referring to the movement from Fleet as being Waaagh movement. Running doesn't enter into it, because Running didn't exist when the rules was written.
If they roll a 1 for it, then the unit takes a wound.
If they don't assault, then they haven't Fleeted... which means that they haven't utilised 'Waaagh movement'
All they did is Run. So the only way to determine whether or not the run is Waaagh movement is by checking whether or not the unit has assaulted. By which time, it's a little late to be going back and checking what you rolled for the Run movement.
Seriously sourclams, what is wrong with you? You seem to think just about every damn rule in the book is somehow unclear. Attempting to follow the instructions on a can of soup must be a terrifying adventure for you.
If I were starved enough to be eating canned soup, I dare say I would be a little concerned about the whole situation.
And no, I don't think every rule in the book is unclear. Just the ones that are unclear... like those written for a previous edition that refer to rules that no longer exist in the same form.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 04:50:50
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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Roolz as Ritten (see what I did thar) you may run first, then declare a Waaaaagh! and avoid risking any wounds. Rules as Intended (deducible from how it worked in 4th edition) you Waaagh! then make your running rolls. And again yes, Rules as Written there's an argument you don't move 6" for Ghaz's Waaagh! since fleet of foot isn't the rule that gives you the movement anymore. Rules as Intended for Ghaz (again from how it worked in 4th when the codex was written) is you move 6" Movement, 6" Shooting, 6" Assault. Sadly this does need an Errata, not an FAQ (since FAQ's are not "legal" so you cant use them to beat the asshat trying this with it) but sadly GW seem diametrically opposed to issuing errata to fix functionality but only do it for typos (i.e. reprint pretty much half the codex in their FAQ's) dont hold your breath (unless you Worship Slaanesh, in which case you'd probably get off on it  )
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/03/19 04:56:32
Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
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Download The Unofficial FAQs by Gwar! here! (Dark Eldar Draft FAQ v1.0 released 04/Nov/2010! Download it before the Pandas eat it all!) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 05:11:58
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Alerian:
No, that's not it. The Fleet of Foot rule says:
"A unit with this rule may assault in the same turn in which it has run."
In other words, Fleet grants assault movement if the unit runs. And so, technically, since Waaagh! confers Fleet if a unit ran, then running is Waaagh! movement.
So let's go through the Waaagh! rule with this in mind, to see just how clear it is:
Q: When is Waaagh! invoked?
A: During the Shooting phase
Q: What does Waaagh! do?
A: It confers Fleet of Foot on all friendly Ork infantry units excepting Gretchin.
Q: What does Fleet of Foot do?
A: A unit with Fleet of Foot may assault in the same turn in which it has run.
Q: So if the Waaagh! rule confers Fleet of Foot, where does it imply running?
A: A unit with this rule may assault in the same turn in which it has run.
Q: What is "this Waaagh! movement" that the rule refers to?
A: The running movement made in the Shooting phase when the Waaagh! rule has been invoked.
Basically, the fact that the Waaagh! rule confers Fleet of Foot, a rule that only takes effect if a unit has run in the Shooting phase, should tell any reader that running under the Waaagh! rule is Waaagh! movement.
If you want the compacted version:
[Waaagh![Fleet[If ran then may assault move]]]<=>If Waaagh! then may assault move. Therefore Waaagh! = run.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 05:21:48
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Nurglitch wrote:Q: What is this Waaagh! movement that the rule refers to?
A: The running movement made in the Shooting phase when the Waaagh! rule has been invoked.
Except that's not what the rule is referring to.
The rule refers to movement from Fleet.
So while your interpretation is the one that makes the most sense within the current rules, it's not what the rules are actually saying to do.
Within the current rules, you could as easily argue that Waaagh movement is running movement made in the shooting phase if the unit assaults something in the assault phase... since that's the only time that Fleet actually kicks in.
Hence the claim that the rules are lacking in clarity. There are two ways to read the rule: 1 that works within the current rules, and 1 that doesn't.
Normally, that wouldn't be a problem. We just go with the one that works, as that's the one that keeps the game flowing.
Unfortunately, though, GW have told us in the rulebook FAQ that codex entries that have no effect under current rules should be simply ignored. Which makes either interpretation equally valid.
Personally, I'll be sticking with the Run movement being the Waaagh movement. But the rules simply aren't clear, as they weren't designed to deal with the current Run/Fleet rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 05:25:07
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Lieutenant General
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In other words, Fleet grants assault movement if the unit runs. And so, technically, since Waaagh! confers Fleet if a unit ran, then running is Waaagh! movement.
Actually it seems to me in this case the Assault move would be the Waaagh! movement.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 05:25:37
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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@ Nurglith: LOL...wow...you just added alot of interpretation in there.
As the 5th ed rules are written, Waaagh! movement does not exist. Period. Yes, there is still the strong implication of it, but that is a complete holdover from 4th ed, and legally has nothing to do with 5th.
Waagh! no longer grants movement, by definition, because Fleet does not grant movement. Yet, there are still rules in the Ork dex on how to handle such Waagh! movement. This is a definite confict in how the rules are written, which is why there needs to be a clear cut eratta.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2009/03/19 05:29:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 05:33:23
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Okay insaniak, I'll bite. Show us how the Waaagh! rule refers to movement from Fleet.
I could not easily argue that Waaagh! movement is running movement made in the Shooting phase if the unit assaults something in the Assault phase, because that would not reflect what the Fleet rules say.
The Fleet rule is composed of several parts, two of which compose a conditional statement. It says: "A unit with this rule may assault in the same turn in which it has run." This sentence states that if a unit has run, and it has the Fleet rule, then it may assault as well.
So, actually, the Fleet rule "kicks in" as soon as a unit runs in the Shooting phase.
Hence the claim that the rules are lacking in clarity is false; the rules are clear and they are being misread.
There is only one way to correctly read this rule, and that is the way that works with the current rules. Fortunately it's not a problem because people know how the rule works, and it only gets raised by rules lawyers in forums like this.
It is good that you're sticking with the Run movement being Waaagh! movement because that's what the rules say, that's how it is commonly played, and hence how you should assume it to be played unless otherwise agreed upon with your opponent or stated by your tournament organizer.
That you find the rules unclear, however, is your problem, because they were designed to be compatible with the current Run/Fleet rules, and they are compatible with the current Run/Fleet rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 05:36:43
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Ghaz:
You may want to read more carefully then. Let me diagram it for you:
"In other words, Fleet grants assault movement if the unit runs. And so, technically, since Waaagh! confers Fleet if a unit ran, then running is Waaagh! movement."
Fleet grants an option if some condition obtains. The condition is whether a unit ran or not. The option is whether a unit will assault move or not. Fleet does not grant the condition to assault move. If it did, then your conclusion would be correct. However, the condition is having run, and so your conclusion is incorrect.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/03/19 05:46:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 05:40:40
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Nurglitch wrote:Okay insaniak, I'll bite. Show us how the Waaagh! rule refers to movement from Fleet.
I already did. It's right in the Waaagh rules.
"...all Ork infantry units have the 'Fleet of Foot' rule (not Gretchin units, they're far too weedy for a proper Waaagh!).
If a unit rolls a 1 when making this Waaagh! movement..."
Which 'Waaagh! movement'? The 'this' tells us that it's talking about the movement it just mentioned... that being Fleet.
So, actually, the Fleet rule "kicks in" as soon as a unit runs in the Shooting phase.
Or it would, if you could assault in the shooting phase.
Fortunately it's not a problem because people know how the rule works, and it only gets raised by rules lawyers in forums like this.
Really?
So the game referred to by Akaiyou as being the situation in which this came up, sparking the thread, is what? He just made it up?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 05:48:47
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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Nurglitch, the problem with your intperpretation that once you Assault (by using Fleet) your run became Waagh! movement is that it makes little sense.
If every unit that ran that turn also assaulted, you would have a valid point. However, if you run every unit (decalring Waagh! as well) and assault with only 1 unit, then by your definition, only the assaulting unit used Waaagh! movement...which is not what the Ork dex says either.
It refers to Waagh! movement for everyone.... something that no longer exists per 5th ed rules. Again, most people play the run move as Waaagh! movement, but that is not how the actual 5th ed rules work thanks to the advent of Run, as well as the change of the FLeet USR. This is why an erretta is so vital on this subject.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 05:50:33
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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The Waaaagh! movement is a holdover from 4th.
There is no Waaaaagh! movement any more, because Fleet of Foot isn't the rule that gives the movement.
the key part of the rule is "all Ork infantry units have the 'Fleet of Foot' rule".
You then check the USR for what fleet does. All it does it let you assault after running.
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Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
Looking to play some Vassal? Ring me for a game!
Download The Unofficial FAQs by Gwar! here! (Dark Eldar Draft FAQ v1.0 released 04/Nov/2010! Download it before the Pandas eat it all!) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 05:59:21
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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insaniak:
Except that as you've pointed out, if the problem with the rule is that Fleet is not movement, then it can hardly be a candidate for the pronoun in "this Waaagh! movement".
Fortunately the Fleet rule itself contains a reference to movement, running movement.
Running movement happens in the Shooting phase so, contrary to your assertion, the Fleet rule referencing it "kicks in" in the Shooting phase when a unit runs.
Due to the Fleet rule, a unit that has run in the Shooting phase has the option of also engaging in assault movement in the Assault phase.
So, to summarize:
If we assume you are correct and Fleet is not movement and does not involve running, your claim that Fleet is referenced by the first sentence of the second paragraph ("this Waaagh! movement") cannot be true because then Fleet is not movement to be referenced.
If we assume that you are wrong, and that the rules themselves are correct, and that Fleet does itself reference movement, then "this" in "this Waaagh! movement" clearly refers to running.
Now, of course we assume the Akaiyou didn't make up a story about some imaginary game. His opponent knew how the rule worked, and Akaiyou tried to rules lawyer otherwise. Fortunately fortune decided correctly in that case.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 06:09:11
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Alerian:
I think you mean to say it makes little sense to you since you have failed to paraphrase my position correctly.
Let me point out a few things:
The Fleet rule has two parts:
1. If a unit has run,
2. then it may also assault
The first part is a necessary condition: The unit must have run in the Shooting phase. The second part is an option: The unit may or may not assault in the Assault phase.
So you fail to understand that it doesn't matter whether a unit assaults in the Assault phase, and in failing to understand that attribute to me the bizarre conclusion that only a unit that makes an assault move during a Waaagh! turn can be said to have made a Waaagh! move when it has run in the Shooting phase.
I am pointing out that Waaagh! movement still exists in the 5th edition of the rules because the Waaagh! rules refer to "this Waaagh! movement" having referenced Fleet of Foot. Fleet of Foot references Running. Therefore, Waaagh! reference Running.
As usual, no errata is necessary.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 06:09:26
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Nurglitch wrote:Except that as you've pointed out, if the problem with the rule is that Fleet is not movement, then it can hardly be a candidate for the pronoun in "this Waaagh! movement".
It can be, because it's a 4th edition codex, referring to a 4th edition rule.
Given that there is no other movement referred to in the Waaagh! rule, Fleet is the only movement to which the rule can be referring.
Running movement happens in the Shooting phase so, contrary to your assertion, the Fleet rule referencing it "kicks in" in the Shooting phase when a unit runs.
How?
In what way does Fleet affect Running?
Due to the Fleet rule, a unit that has run in the Shooting phase has the option of also engaging in assault movement in the Assault phase.
Right. So in the Assault phase, a unit with Fleet can assault. You don't reference Fleet in the Shooting phase, because it has absolutely no effect in the Shooting phase.
If we assume you are correct and Fleet is not movement and does not involve running, your claim that Fleet is referenced by the first sentence of the second paragraph ("this Waaagh! movement") cannot be true because then Fleet is not movement to be referenced.
Overlooking, of course, the fact that Fleet was movement last edition, and we are given a solution in the FAQ as to what happens when a codex refers to an obsolete rule.
If we assume that you are wrong, and that the rules themselves are correct,
...we first have to assume that there is only one possible way to read the rules.
You have responses from several people in this thread that suggest otherwise.
Now, of course we assume the Akaiyou didn't make up a story about some imaginary game. His opponent knew how the rule worked, and Akaiyou tried to rules lawyer otherwise. Fortunately fortune decided correctly in that case.
Right. Anyone disagreeing with you is clearly just rules lawyering.
It's not remotely possible that they might actually, I don't know, disagree with you?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 06:18:45
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Superior Stormvermin
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You guys seem to also not consider that fact that a codex rule overrides a rulebook rule. I don't own an ork codex, so I don't know the exact wording, but if the codex (in Ghazzie's case) gives you a 6" waagh! move, then you get a 6" waagh! move regardless of what the rulebook says about fleet of foot or the run rule.
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Steve Perry.... STEEEEEEVE PERRY.... I SHOULD'VE BEEN GOOOONE! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 06:20:41
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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NUrglitch, because of the change to Fleet USR(which no longer grants movement) all of the other references to Waaagh! movement can be ignored...legally.
Just as Autarchs give +1 strategy rating (no longer exists) and Rippers on a Fex's base add to outnumbering (no longer exists) and Harlequin Veil of Tears/ Tau Target Locks effect Target Priority (no longer exists), so Waagh! movement is technically outdated and non-existent in 5th. "Congratulations, your Autarch gives you +1 strategy Rating, and my Ghaz gives me a 6" Waaagh! move....too bad niether of these rules actually exist anymore!"
However, because of the implications of Waagh! being so integral to how Orks have been played with this dex (both the penalties for rolling 1s and the benefits of Ghaz) most players want to make it work...who knows, maybe GW wants to make it work, as well.
The point is, you have to force an interpretation into the Fleet USR that Waaagh! grants movement, because the USR has changed since 4th ed, for which the codex was written.
I honestly don't see how you can be so insistant that you are right, and others are wrong. You are arguing a 4th ed holdover, against a 5th ed RAW. Granted, 90% of us probably play it the way you are promoting, but it is not RAW by any definition, which is why GW needs to make an official ruling.
Until then, both sides have valid points, which will force this to be resolved on a case-by-case situation...usually with dice-offs.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/03/19 06:37:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 06:23:54
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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insaniak:
Let me first state that if you continue to chop up my posts and reply with a mess of disconnected quotes, I'm going to stop replying to you. Surely you're capable of writing like an adult, and putting your thoughts together into a coherent whole that communicates your ideas as well as questioning mine.
So, first you ask how Fleet affects Running. I'm not sure why you'd ask this, since I've pointed out several times that Running is a condition in the Fleet rule. Fleet doesn't affect Running, Running affects Fleet.
Since Running affects Fleet, and Running happens in the Shooting phase, Fleet is referenced in the Shooting phase.
Fleet included Running movement in the last edition, and now that Running is a general rule, Fleet merely references it.
Let me repeat: Fleet does not affect Running; Fleet references Running.
Now, back to your traditional off-topic banter:
Of course people can disagree with me. It's when they disagree with the rules that they are rules-lawyering. Since there is only one way to read, which is to say correctly, one must point this out when someone is clearly reading incorrectly; for if they are reading incorrectly and what they are reading are the rules, then clearly they are reading the rules incorrectly.
Why isn't this clear to you?
Actually, if you want to answer that question, please do so by private message so we can stay on topic in this thread.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 06:33:42
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Proud Phantom Titan
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Fleet ... A unit with this rule may assault in the same turn in which it has run.
welcome 5th we don't use 4th rules
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 06:39:43
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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JourneyPsycheOut:
I think it's not being considered because it's not considere to the matter at hand, which is what the Waaagh! movement is in the general case and not in the specific case of Ghazghkull Thraka's special rule.
That said, it's interesting that it refers to "rolling a 6 for the Waaagh! movement they wish to make." Unfortunately no more informative than the general Waaagh! rule's reference to rolling a 1 though. More's the pity.
Alerian:
You keep on insisting that Fleet does not grant movement. You're missing the point: Fleet references the Running rule.
Waaagh! references the Fleet rule, the Fleet rule references the Running rule, and hence the Waaagh! movement is Running movement.
It lines up with movement in the Shooting phase, with the results of the dice rolled for running being 1 at least and 6 at most (okay, maybe the Ghazghkull entry turned out to be pertinent after all). But it doesn't have to since the chain of references is conclusive.
The fact is that as the 5th edition rules stand in conjunction with Codex: Orks, the Waaagh! movement is Running movement. If you can't see how this works, you're going to run into lots of dice rolling situations when you're trying to play because you're going to have difficulty reading the rules correctly.
As an aside, something I find utterly bizarre about this thread is the insistence that Codex: Orks is somehow a 4th edition document that may contain dead referents in the rules when it is part of a collection of 5th edition compatible Codices that GW released prior to publishing 5th edition. I remember all the rules problems that cropped up in 4th edition because there were actual dead referents, like Ghazghkull's Adamantium Skull, in the book. This ain't a dead referent. If anything Codex: Orks is a 5th edition codex released during 4th edition (unlike the Tau and Tyranid codecies which are 4th edition proper). Basically the Codex: Chaos Space Marines was the first 5th edition codex.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 06:44:46
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Nurglitch wrote:Let me first state that if you continue to chop up my posts and reply with a mess of disconnected quotes, I'm going to stop replying to you.
I'll probably get over it, eventually.
The quote simply serves as a marker to show the relevant part of your post to which I am replying. It's easier for people following the thread to read than a multiple-screen essay.
Fleet doesn't affect Running, Running affects Fleet.
Right. And Fleet being a rule that concerns an action in the Assault Phase, if it has no effect on Running, you have no reason whatsoever to reference it in the Shooting phase.
Since Running affects Fleet, and Running happens in the Shooting phase, Fleet is referenced in the Shooting phase.
Nope, sorry. Backwards alert.
Nowhere does the Run rule mention Fleet. Fleet has no effect on the Shooting phase. You therefore, again, have no reason to reference Fleet in the Shooting phase.
It's completely irrelevant until you actually reach the Assault phase, where it actually has an effect.
Fleet included Running movement in the last edition,
It may have included it as a Fluff explanation for the rule (although it didn't do so in the actual rulebook) but 4th edition most certainly did not include a Run rule as any part of Fleet.
Let me repeat: Fleet does not affect Running; Fleet references Running.
Sure it does. And it does so in the Assault Phase, by allowing a specific action if you ran in the previous phase.
That doesn't mean that Fleet 'activates' in the Shooting phase. It has absolutely no reason to do so.
Of course people can disagree with me. It's when they disagree with the rules that they are rules-lawyering.
Of course. How silly of me.
The problem, of course, is that you seem to determine whether or not someone is 'disagreeing with the rules' based on whether or not they agree with you... since you are reading the rules the only 'correct' way...
Do you seriously not see the problem with that idea?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 06:54:11
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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Nurglitch wrote:
You keep on insisting that Fleet does not grant movement. You're missing the point: Fleet references the Running rule.
Waaagh! references the Fleet rule, the Fleet rule references the Running rule, and hence the Waaagh! movement is Running movement.
No...Waaagh does NOT reference Fleet...it clearly states that it grants Fleet USR. Fleet no longer grants movement...period. This means that you play by the current Fleet rules, and not the 4th ed Fleet rules that granted movement.
Everything you are pushing is pure RAI, and not what the rules for Fleet (which is all that Waaagh! grants) actually say, which means that it is open for debate....especially by people who want to play by pure RAW. Sure, I play it the way you are suggesting, both when I play my Orks or against others with my Eldar/ DA. However, that does not make it RAW, nor force others to play that way. Which is why GW needs to adress it.
Look, it is really VERY simple.... per 5th ed rules, Waaagh! movement doesn't actually exist, and thus it is merely a holdover idea from the old Fleet USR of 4th. However, most of us still use it, because we believe that GW meant to keep it, even though they have failed to address th problem. This is where we, as gamers, must interpret the intent of the game designers and decide for ourselves how to play it. Hopefully, GW will address this and other Ork Codex problems...namely the Deffrolla ramming problem. It is naive to think that everything in the Ork dex was designed for 5th, when it obviously was not...it is a 4.5 dex at best.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/03/19 07:01:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 06:55:55
Subject: The Waaagh! And 5th Edition (I REALLY need this answered)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Waaagh!, p.31, Codex: Orks wrote:Once per game, the Ork player can declare a Waaagh! during his Shooting phase. This may not normally be declared on the first turn as a proper Waaagh! needs some momentum behind it. For the duration of that turn, all friendly Ork infantry units have the 'fleet of foot' rule (not Gretchin units, they're far too weedy for a proper Waaagh!).
If a unit rolls a 1 when making this Waaagh! movement, the Orks start fighting before they get to the enemy.
Does a unit have to make a Waaagh! move? No, they just have Fleet of Foot.
Fleet, p.75 wrote:There are many variants of this rule: Fleet of Foot, Fleet of Claw, even Fleet of Hoof.
A unit with this rule may assault in the same turn in which it has run.
Fleet of Foot is Fleet. It confers the option of assaulting if the unit has run. So what's running?
Run!, p.16, Rulebook wrote:In their Shooting phase, units may choose to run instead of firing, immediately moving D6".
Units that run in the Shooting phase cannot assault in the following Assault phase.
So if a player calls a Waaagh! then any units of Ork infantry, sans Gretchin, have Fleet of Foot for the duration of that turn. Instead of firing, these Ork units can choose to run, moving D6". If a unit rolls a 1 when making this Waaagh! movement, the unit takes a wound. A unit with this rule may assault in the same turn in which it has run.
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