Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay, so I know that I'm taking on a huge task here. A lot of people hate the current codex for removing its flavor, so I'm trying to add it back in, while still trying to keep it balanced. This means that I'm adding back mutations and the like. It's kind of complex, but I'm trying to make it not as much of a GUO as it is now.

Here's the stuff that I've worked on so far. No point costs yet.

First of all, start of with Army Wide Rules:

Chaotic Attributes: Must roll for this after deployment. Roll for each individual squad/character. This is an optional ability. Add +d3-2 to any of these: S, T, W, I, A. If wounds would be reduced to 0 because of this, consider those affected to have 1's in all stats except for a T and S of 3, LD 2, the squad's original save, Fearless, Feel No Pain, and "We'll Be Back!".

Essence of the Warp- May roll invulnerable saves in addition to any other save.
----
Mark of Khorne- Fearless, +1 Attack

Mark of Tzeentch (Character)- Sorceror, always pass Psychic Tests unless 2 6's are rolled.

Mark of Tzeentch (CSM units)- Fearless, Slow and Purposeful, Daemonic Constitution (+1 wound)

Mark of Nurgle- Fearless, Increased Toughness (+1 T)

Mark of Slaanesh- Fearless, Subduing Gaze (-1 I to enemies in assault)

Mark of Chaos Undivided- May reroll a failed LD check unless it involves a psychic power.

Mark of Malal- Preferred Enemy: Chaos, Furious Charge
---

Now for some new (or returning, or with different rules) Weapons:

1 Hand CCW's:
Khornate Chainaxe- Gives -1 to saves in CC.

2 Hand CCW's:
Great Weapon- Gives +2 S and -1 I.

1 Hand Firearms:
Needle Pistol- R12" Str X Ap 6; Assault 1, Pistol
Hand Flamer- R: Template Str 3 Ap 6; Assault 1, Pistol

2 Hand Firearms:
Tzeentchian Arquebus- R36" Str 4 Ap - Assault 1, Pinning

Rare Weapons: (Only 1 per army)
Kai Gun- R36" Str 6 Ap 4 Heavy 5
Annihilator of Khorne- R36" Str 8 Ap 3; Heavy 4, Pinning
Storm of Tzeentch- R60" Str 7 Ap 4; Heavy 1, Large Blast
Pus Blaster of Nurgle- R18" Str X Ap -; Heavy 3, Blast; Pinning
Eviscerator of Slaanesh- R24" Str 6 Ap 6; Heavy 6, Pinning

Daemon Weapons: (If you roll a natural 1 then the daemon inside rebels, doing 1 wound. This is saveable only by an invulnerable save. )

Khornate- Power Weapon, gives d6+1 attacks, Rage
Tzeentchian- Power Weapon, +d2 attacks, Has a shooting attack of R:Template Str 4 Ap 3
Nurglesque- Power Weapon, +d3 attacks, Poisoned
Slaaneshi- Power Weapon, +d4 attacks, Hit and Run
Undivided- Power Weapon, +d3 attacks, +1 S
Malalian- Power Weapon, +d3 attacks, wounds any Chaos model on a 3+ unless it would be lower, and gets +1S if the model with this weapon has a lower S or T than a model in the squad that it is currently in close combat with.

So, that's it for now.
Next time: Mutations and Daemonic Mounts!

AllWillFall2Me wrote:I like the idea you have here of returning the flavor to Chaos, and several of your ideas look very nice. However, some of them seem to be a little strange to me. (As a disclaimer, I started 40k shortly before 5th ed, so I've never seen the older codices actually played. I have most 3rd and 4th ed codices on my computer, but if I ask a question that's justified because of 2nd ed or something, that's why.)

Firstly, the Chaotic Attributes rule. I'm going to say, I don't like this. Chaos is all well and good, but this is going a little far. I could see this as an upgrade for a select few units but as it stands (given that AFAIK all units can roll) it seems too "big" to stay.

I can definitely see this. I like it. Probably things like Chosen, and Possessed. Thank you.

Secondly, Malal. I know who he is, and so your choices for him seem ok, but why, at least in this document, does he have as much importance as the four really famous gods? Perhaps it's just a matter of receiving undiluted or modified data, and in your actual 'codex' he's a small, variant army list. But listing him here, next to the others, makes him seem very important, and I've never gotten that feel.

Hmm...do you think that it would be okay if the mark was only available on specific units? Because some fluff for Malal says that while his follower may be few, they are incredibly strong. So perhaps something along that line.

Moving on to more specific things: Essence of the Warp. This is strong, very strong. I hope it has a high price to match.

Yes, it's very strong. A 6+ invul and a 5+ invul (no higher than a 5+ for the sake of balance) are around 13 and 20 points respectively. The actual Essence of the Warp costs no points, however, as invulnerable saves are very few and far between. Perhaps a bit arbitrary? I could make it an ability that Daemon Princes and Chaos Lords have access to, however, and I could make invulnerable saves more (albeit not too much more) common.

MoT(unit): +1 Wound is another big, bold move. However, it's replacing an invuln save. tricky. I'd have to see how thousand son Marines fare like this.

This is a hark back to the old 3.5 Chaos codex. Plus, with Essence of the Warp, Thousand Sons were insanely powerful. So I chose the +1 wound option.

Rare weapons:
In general, I found most of these odd choices. Khorne having a super gun. The Kai-gun no longer being a marine-killing machine. The fact that khorne had the best range except Tzeentch. (tying with the kai)
(Also, your avenger, which I assumed to be Malal's didn't make it.)

I will be the first to admit that the ranges were a bit on the arbitrary side. I'm going to end up reducing Khorne's and upping Slaanesh's. The Khorne gun on its own was around like 60 points to start with, so I feel that it's not too big. I wanted to emphasize that Khorne isn't just all about CC, he's about shooting too.

The Avenger, yes, is Malal's. I thought that I had deleted that, but I guess I didn't. Whoops.

Daemon weapons.
For a codex seeking to bring back flavor, these really didn't sell it for me. In most cases a usr or stat change and a variable number of attacks? How do you expect to even get d4 from a 6 sided die for your slaanesh weapon?

I'm going to be honest, I don't really like them either. If I could get some suggestions, that would be incredibly helpful.

For the d4, well, the d4 is just a different dice used as opposed to the d6.

However, as I said, I found your goal and your ideas at the very least interesting. I'm looking forward to the rest of your work, to see if it helps me make sense of what's already here.

Thank you very much, I appreciate all of your input! Rest assured, it will not go unheard. I need people other than myself to give input.

A funny (or rather, disturbing) note aside is that I've been trying to figure out how to make the mutations and the Lord work together.

The problem is, with this much stuff, it's hard to balance it. I ended up with a huge Daemon Prince monstrosity that wiped out a squad of 30 Ork boys in around 3 turns. Of course, there were definitely some changes after that.

Well, I'll get off of my and get back to work.

Thank you again!

:EDIT: I'm going to be leaving the first post unchanged, so I can get as many comments/feedback on its unchanged status before I go around making a new list.

-Vlad

kormas wrote:well. to start off, i realy like these idears and i believe that it might be nice to add some fo the old flavour back to the book.

first off, i dont like the daemon weapons, personaly i like how they are in the current codex (i am a little bias in this )

First of all, thank you.

Second of all: Yep, the Daemon Weapons are ALL getting revamped. I'm not too big of a fan of the current ones, however I can and will try and make them fit as much as possible.

the marks are good. Tzzentch is good as it is at the moment, it ads a bit more that just an inv save, though you migth want to change the slow and purposfull, not all marines dedicated to tzzentch are thousand sons (according to the current dex)

Hmm...so no S+P? I admittedly haven't read half of the fluff in the current Chaos Codex, since it was all like "oh the Chaos gods are lyke rly dumb and dey don't kno wat dey are doing lololol!!!1"

I couldn't read any more. Removing S+P will make the Mark more expensive to units, of course.

i like the return of the khornite chain axe.

dont realy see the need for the needle pistol, was it in the old dex?

kai gun ftw!!!, i used to love this weapon, but bring the ap back to ap3

No, the needle pistol wasn't in the old dex, at least, I don't think so. I just felt like putting it there, to be totally honest.

The Kai Gun, I will make its AP 3 again, and reduce its Str to 4.

overall i am looking fors to seeing how this turns out.

who the hell is Malal??????, i have never heard of him

Malal is a minor Chaos god. He's pretty interesting, actually. You can read about him here:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6183/mordheim/mordheim-malal.html

@Ghidorah, and also @ HBMC assuming that he's talking to me:

Well, I want to add more interesting stuff to the Chaos codex, because I'm going to be honest, the current one is kind of on the boring side. Like, Tzeentch is the god of saving you from power weapons and lascannons. And, looking over the summary for the old Chaos codex, I found that there was so much more.

And the best example of how boring the new dex is: Generic Daemons. Cop-out, much?

So I want to add stuff back in. I don't want to step on the toes of the Daemon codex, however I figure that with some creativity I can add some Daemons to this codex.

Why balance it? Um, so that you don't have uber Daemon Prince monsters running around killing whole armies?

Now for some Questions:

Speaking of Daemon Princes, would you guys rather that the Daemon Prince be an upgrade (like how I have it right now), or a separate entry? It's going to be an 0-1 choice either way.

Also, would you rather that Sorcerors be Tzeentch only (like I have them right now), or have Sorcerors be a separate entry in the Chaos codex with options for Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh?

waaagh!orksrocks wrote:I like the chaos dex as it is I may not have seen the old ones. someone I'm not sure who because I read it ages ago said something about daemon princes you couldnt shoot or charge I mean thats just stupid and really really gamey it sounds like you couldnt have a fun game with or against it people as far as I can tell are just annoyed because their uber unkillable things of death are gone.

I've only seen small parts of the Chaos Codex. However, the thing is that power players really liked uber unkillable things. They moved on to Orks and other stuff. The true Chaos players, for the most part, don't like that stuff.

Don't worry though, Daemon Princes are nothing like that. In fact, in the way that I'm working it, Daemon Princes are going to be expensive, but oh so worth it. They give you +d3-1 to your WS and BS, Eternal Warrior, and (if the Chaos Lord doesn't have it already) Monstrous Creature.

Trust me, they're going to be on the expensive side, but they will be worth the price. Don't worry about it.

Quick question, would you guys prefer it if I posted the mutations and other equipment (and mounts) here, or in a different thread?

-Vlad

Alright, so I'm expecting to be mauled when I post this, so I'm getting out my shield and asbestos suit.

Now for the bread and butter (imho anyway) of the new codex:

Mutations!

Mutations are to me, what makes Chaos, well, Chaos. They work like this: Cultists may take up to 2 mutations, Chaos Space Marines may take up to 3, Possessed may take up to 5, and Lords/Aspiring Champions may take as many as they wish. Units that I didn't specify (i.e. Raptors and the like) may take up to 4.

However, if you add a Mark to a unit then you may take 1 additional mutation. They cost points, however, and I don't suggest loading up on them if you want an army with more than 20 people in it! Unless of course you want your Chaos Space Marines to have the Mark of Khorne, Tentacles, Wings, Extra limbs, and to breath fire, in which case, go for it!

Without further ado, Mutations:

Wings- Move as a Jump Pack
Tentacles- In CC, model receives an additional D3 WS3 Str3 I4 attacks. No bonus for charging.
Aura of the Warp- Model gets a 5+ invulnerable save
Extra Limbs- Model gets +1A, may take one extra one-handed weapon (at its specified cost). Model may fire as if a monstrous creature.
Gigantic- Model gets +1 S and +1 T, Monstrous Creature, Vulnerable to Blasts
Increased Speed-Move as Cavalry
Terrifying- Enemies within 6" are considered to have -1 LD, -2 if on a Greater Daemon
Increased Strength- +1 S
Talons- Rending
Increased Toughness- +1T
Daemon Prince- (Requires 4 or more mutations, 3 if one of them is Giant) Eternal Warrior, +D3-1 WS and BS. May not take Equipment.
Breathes Fire- Considered a Flamer
Daemonic Constitution- +1 Wound
Subduing Gaze- -1 I to enemy in assault
Protection of the gods- Eternal Warrior
Blessing of the dark gods- Instead of rolling a d3-2 for Chaotic Attributes, Roll a d4-2 instead.

Phew...now that that's done with...onto mounts. Like Daemon Weapons, I'm not too happy with these guys.

Juggernaught (b****!!) of Khorne- +1S, +1W. Fleet.
Disc of Tzeentch-+1W, Move as Bike, May move 3" in the Assault Phase
Palanquin of Nurgle- +1T and +1W, Fleet
Steed of Slaanesh- +1I, Fleet, Cavalry, Hit and Run (I thought of removing H&R from the Slaanesh Daemon Weapon and adding it the mount)

Okay, so now I want to throw in some Miscellaneous Stuff:

Daemon Runes- Reroll 1 missed to hit roll
Servo Harness- Can fortify 1 piece of terrain, meaning that models that take a cover save in the terrain receive a +1 to their cover save. In close combat, grants 1 WS3 S4 Power Weapon attack, 2 if the model charged that turn.

Combat Drugs-May choose to make as many rolls as you want, must do it at the very beginning of the turn. Roll 1d6 for each choice. Doubles means that the model takes 1 wound and gains Rage. Triples means that the model suffers instant death, even if it can avoid it via Eternal Warrior or any other means. Just because you're an Eternal Warrior doesn't mean that you can survive when your brain and all of your internal organs disintegrate or dissolve because of the the insane amount of drugs you're taking.

1. Fleet
2. +1 A
3. +1 S
4. +1 I (that's an I, not an L. I don't want to know your A/S/L, you weirdo.)
5. Hit and Run
6. Reroll any 1's in Close Combat


That's all for now.
By the way, a clarification on Daemon Prince- I'm not Arby. The reason it can't take Equipment is because I listed Equipment as Bikes and Jump Packs. Yeah.

Also, another clarification so that I don't look like Arby. Gigantic has Vulnerable to Blasts because it makes sense (most of the time) and it's also a balance issue. Try telling your resident IG player that your gigantic Daemon Prince has 5 wounds, oh, and T7.

Unless, of course, someone here has a better way to make Gigantic work, in which case I'm all ears. Same for Combat Drugs. I'm not happy with them as it's really just a huge rip off of the DE codex.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Alright, so I'm expecting to be mauled when I post this, so I'm getting out my shield and asbestos suit.

*ignites flamer*

Vladsimpaler wrote:They work like this: Cultists may take up to 2 mutations, Chaos Space Marines may take up to 3, Possessed may take up to 5, and Lords/Aspiring Champions may take as many as they wish. Units that I didn't specify (i.e. Raptors and the like) may take up to 4.

Ok, straight away we have an issue. I like the idea of mutations, but I'm a big proponent of KISS. I would say have three levels of mutation:

Underling Level (so cultists and the like - 1 mutation per squad)
Henchman Level (so regular CSM squads, Havocs, basic Cult units, etc. - 2 mutations)
Elite/Command Level (Possessed, Chosen, HQ's - 3 Mutations each)

It means that rather than checking to see what a Raptor unit gets or a CSM unit compared to a Havoc unit gets, you just have to remember what category the unit falls into. Raptor is regular troop level? 2 mutation. It's a Chaos Lord? 3. Some Cultists? Just 1.

Otherwise the idea is fine.

Sorry, for some reason I really like over-complicating things. This will work perfectly. Thank you!

Vladsimpaler wrote:However, if you add a Mark to a unit then you may take 1 additional mutation.

That's cool, opens the way for God-specific mutations.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Wings- Move as a Jump Pack

You would allow every squad to get this? Why take Raptors?

Because I've got some special stuff planned for Raptors, I.E. they can move 3" in the assault phase if they don't assault. I do see your point though.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Tentacles- In CC, model receives an additional D3 WS3 Str3 I4 attacks. No bonus for charging.

This rule will require you to roll multiple D3's to work out who gets to attack, and contains an exception to a standing rule (no +1A for charging). The rule is therefore clunky and needlessly complicated. +1A will do here.

Bleh, should've specified that it's for the entire squad that you roll the D3 for. Will change it to +1A.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Aura of the Warp- Model gets a 5+ invulnerable save

Again, you want squads taking this?

At this point I'm realizing that I need a complete overhaul of the mutations system...crap.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Extra Limbs- Model gets +1A, may take one extra one-handed weapon (at its specified cost). Model may fire as if a monstrous creature.

Ok, three rules in one, and redundant with the presence of tentacles. I actually liked 'Daemonic Mutation' in the Real Chaos Codex because it covered all of these mutational archetypes quite well. It was abstracted, but it led to less rules. Remember the acronym MRS - More Rules Syndrome - it's when you're adding more rules upon more rules for (seemingly) the sake of adding more rules. Here we have a single item that not only has three rules, but allows it to use other rules or take even further options (one that is an exception to a rule, and another that allows it to act as another model type without being that model type). Definate MRS here.

Yes, it seems that I'm plagued by MRS...will remove.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Gigantic- Model gets +1 S and +1 T, Monstrous Creature, Vulnerable to Blasts

Vulnerable to Blasts? Why? Greater Daemons and Daemonic Princes are. Unecessary.

Also you have to clarify whether the increase to S and T is to its base values. That's the difference between S9 or S10 with a power fist, and T4(5) and a flat T5.

And this is why you don't publish books without playtesting them. To be honest, that's a tough choice and I'd need to think a bit about it.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Increased Speed-Move as Cavalry

Once again, you want whole squads taking this? Terminators?

Feth no.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Terrifying- Enemies within 6" are considered to have -1 LD, -2 if on a Greater Daemon

Nothing wrong there.

Phew!

Vladsimpaler wrote:Increased Strength- +1 S

Really? That's what it does? I thought 'Increased Strength' was going to make more more friendly, not stronger.

See, I was toying with the idea of making it give rubber duckies to the entire squad...

Vladsimpaler wrote:Talons- Rending

Do you want whole units taking this?

Not really. Balls.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Increased Toughness- +1T

Does this not step on the toes of Plague Marines? Is this T4(5) or T5?

It doesn't step on the toes of them because it's going to be more expensive than the Mark of Nurgle, which actually grants this. So (these are just random prices) while the MoN might be +10 points, this ability on its own might cost +15.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Daemon Prince- (Requires 4 or more mutations, 3 if one of them is Giant) Eternal Warrior, +D3-1 WS and BS, Monstrous Creature. May not take Equipment.

Less dice rolls is better in my mind, so I'd make it a flat +2 to WS. And the idea that a Daemon Prince can't take equipment is silly. Just like in the current 'Chaos' Codex... Daemon Princes can't take Daemon Weapons, which is idiotic.

Like I clarified, Equipment is really just bikes and jump packs. Though I should probably change the name to something else. Daemon Princes can definitely take Daemon Weapons in this book, however.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Breathes Fire- Considered a Flamer

Whole squads with flamers?

Balls.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Daemonic Constitution- +1 Wound

This mutation has plenty going for it, but do you want whole squads to have +1W?

Okay I'm definitely having an overhaul.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Subduing Gaze- -1 I to enemy in assault

Ok, that's powerful. I'd expect this one to be 20-30 points and therefore far too expensive to take on regular units.

Was the Mark of Slaanesh expensive in the 'real' Chaos codex?

Vladsimpaler wrote:Juggernaught (b****!!) of Khorne- +1S, +1W. Fleet.
Disc of Tzeentch-+1W, Move as Bike, May move 3" in the Assault Phase
Palanquin of Nurgle- +1T and +1W, Fleet
Steed of Slaanesh- +1I, Fleet, Cavalry, Hit and Run (I thought of removing H&R from the Slaanesh Daemon Weapon and adding it the mount)

Like them all. Might steal them myself!

Awesome!

Vladsimpaler wrote:Daemon Runes- Reroll 1 missed to hit roll
Servo Harness- Can fortify 1 piece of terrain, meaning that models that take a cover save in the terrain receive a +1 to their cover save. In close combat, grants 1 WS3 S4 Power Weapon attack, 2 if the model charged that turn.

Well... do Chaos still have TechMarines in the fluff? I know the Iron Warriors do, but what about everyone else?

It's really just there for the Iron Warriors. Plus, I figure that there has to be at least one other chapter with a techmarine, or something like it.

Vladsimpaler wrote:1. Fleet
2. +1 A
3. +1 S
4. +1 I (that's an I, not an L. I don't want to know your A/S/L, you weirdo.)
5. Hit and Run
6. Reroll any 1's in Close Combat

This is quite an interesting way of doing Combat Drugs. So you roll to see what you get (so if I roll a 1, I get fleet, roll a 5, I get Hit & Run). And doubles is a wound, triples = dead. I like it quite a bit, because it's not the random Possessed from the 'Chaos' Codex in that you're stuck with them, you get to re-do it each turn. One thing I'd say (or make sure of) is that you roll at the start of the turn and even, to make it more fun, you can do it in a 'Hit Me' blackjack fashion. Roll a D6, see what you get, then choose to roll another, and so on until you either roll a double or chicken out and don't roll any more dice.

Okay, so make it the start of every turn, and in a 'Hit Me' blackjack fashion. I like it. I actually like this a lot.

Vladsimpaler wrote:By the way, a clarification on Daemon Prince- I'm not Arby. The reason it can't take Equipment is because I listed Equipment as Bikes and Jump Packs. Yeah.

That's not a good reason. You can restrict items to Daemon Princes within their rules. You shouldn't need blanket arbitrary restrictions to get past your own Codex.

Still like what you've got though.

focusedfire wrote:Thats why I made it a choice. I like the idea of adding temptation with the chance of immediate punishment for indulging in the gifts of the Chaos gods.

It also why you roll for each model as opposed to units as a whole.

I got the idea from a tournament mission where the gravity varied turn to turn in a similar manner.

Woah, wait, each model? No offense but that would take a lifetime for an Ork horde or for an Imperial Guard infantry army.

Though that's why you made it a choice, I suppose.

Hmm...perhaps a section on special rules for Daemon Worlds? It'll have to be put on the backburner for the rest of the codex, but it could very well work.

Mmm...I'm not sure. On one hand, it's cool, but on the other hand, 6 Str 5 attacks on the charge from each Khorne Beserker (if you have like 3 squads) is a bit over the top.

It'd also be very hard to cost.

In addition, I'm on the fence between just having Chaos Space Marines with a buttload (a metric buttload, not a standard buttload) of options like Khornate Axes and Noise Weaponry and whatnot, so that you can make your own Cult Troops without them being spelled out for you.

However, just making different troop choices of Khorne Beserkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines, and Thousand Sons and 'normal' Chaos Space Marines is a lot easier.

But then again, I've never done things that are easy, now, have I?

As for mutations for squads, I've looked at some of the old Slaves to Darkness stuff and come up with these:

Terrible Smell- The model(s) is considered to have defensive grenades.
Cloud of Flies- The model(s) receive a 5+ cover save.
Agile- +1 I. (Duh)
Psychopathic- Rage, Roll 2 dice for Run and choose highest.

Obviously these won't be all of them, but it's a start and you have to start somewhere!

-Vlad

I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, but as this is April Fool's, well, here's a nice little profile. Keep in mind that I have absolutely no point values yet. At all. I'm redoing, like, everything. This character will probably end up being around, let's say 120+ points? Daemon Prince is going to be like +50 points at least.

Firaeveus Carron, X points

WS:5 BS:5 S:5 T:4 W:3 I:5 A:4 LD:10 Sv:3+/5+

Weapons: Khornate Chainaxe, Melta Gun, Plasma Pistol

Wargear: Power Armor. Aura of the Warp, Blessing of the Dark gods, Increased Strength, Terrifying

Options: May become a Daemon Prince for +Y points

Special Rules:
Independent Character
Essence of the Warp
Chaotic Mutations

"We should take away their metal boxes..." At the start of the shooting phase, nominate one Chaos Space Marine unit within 12". If it passes a LD test, any weapons that they fire at a model with an armor value get +1 to their armor penetration rule.



Just kidding. Or am I?

Again getting ahead of myself, but I'm also planning the return of the Doom Rider, which will be the only Daemon Prince able to be on a bike.

warpcrafter wrote:#1: Codex Chaos. Chaos Space Marines, Daemons and Lost & the Damned in one big book, totally mix and match with no restrictions.

It's going to take a lot longer, trust me, but I'll try it.

#2: Chosen and terminators that have all the special abilities of the big four and one additional god-specific ability each to represent their elite status.

I was actually going to go down the route of only having Chosen get access to Terminator armor. I will definitely take your idea into consideration.

#3: Bring back the special rules for the other traitor legions and a basic list of lesser generic army abilities that players could use to create their own chaos space marine/traitor legions.

Hmm, so is it like, "Iron Warriors +1 PPM. You get X, World Eaters +2 PPM, you get X and Y" and so on and so forth?

As I said a little bit before, I am making it so that Aspiring Champions can take a bunch of different abilities that they bestow upon squads. It's really for balance reasons.

I really don't want this codex to be a heaping slew of abilities that's confusing even for a veteran. And I want it to be a little bit balanced at least, so that it doesn't annihilate other armies nor does it have 'no-brainers' so some customization may have to be sacrificed.

Though then again, I knew that when I came into this project, I'd have a big burden. And I'm willing to take it on.

Speaking of the Word Bearers, honestly up until a couple days I had forgotten about them.

Accursed Crozius will give a 5+ save, Essence of the Warp, and an inspiring ability. Like, all units within 6" use the bearer of the Crozius' LD for all morale and pinning tests. Something of that sort.


As for Daemons...all of the ones in the current codex (sans Heralds)?

This is going to take a while.

LatD is going to be fairly easy. Just change some points costs, and ta-dah!

Daemons shouldn't be too hard either. Just make some stat changes and some point costs, and a direct port will probably work out.

CSM is going to be the trouble spot I'm afraid.

:edit:

How about these profiles for Greater Daemons?

BloodThirster- WS:10 BS:7 S:8 T:7 W:4 I:6 A:5 Ld:10 Sv:4+/3+
Lord of Change- WS:5 BS:10 S:6 T:6 W:4 I:5 A:4 Ld:10 Sv:--/3+
Great Unclean One-WS:6 BS:5 S:6 T:6 W:6 I:2 A:4 Ld:10 Sv:--/4+
Keeper of Secrets- WS:8 BS:5 S:6 T:6 W:4 I:10 A:6 Ld:10 Sv:--/4+

I feel a bit bad about the GUO not getting a 10 in a stat area though...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Go for some Sacred Number stuff on the GD's - GUO should be T7 W7!!!

Aye aye cap'n.

@MarvinGaye- Yes, yes I know. But the problem is that, well, I just wanted to try and make a new Chaos codex. I am pretty much swiping everything in that codex, though.

solkan wrote:
See Lost and the Damned and Slaves to Darkness. Randomly generating gifts for each model might sounds like a neat idea but it was a horrible horrible horrible idea in practice. You're either stuck with having to WYSIWYG the occasional gimp model with four left feet or give up entirely and have to resort to a ten page chart and numbers on your figures to keep track of which figure has what.

Are you referring to Focusedfire? Because I don't think I've had anything with roll for each model... Maybe Tentacles, but that was supposed to be a blanket +D3 attacks, not for each individual model.

I actually lifted a few things from Slaves to Darkness, namely the Chaotic Attributes. Of course I actually fixed it a bit (d4-1 was a bit much, D3-2 is the most balanced, but I have given Chaos Lords the option to make the mutations D4-2 for a rather hefty points cost of course!).

I've done my best to simplify everything. There are a lot of options for individual characters and models of course, but for squads you can't arm each guy individually. Too much confusion.

@ Mephistoles1-

I don't have the 3.5 Chaos codex, and it's almost for the better as I'm starting from a (mostly) clean slate. Daemon Princes are still an option.

However I'm thinking of creating a rule where you MUST show your opponent every single mutation that you have taken for your lords. I might enforce WYSIWYG too. Like, if it's not WYSIWYG (ignoring things like Frightening, but for things like Gigantic and DP) you get minuses to stats.

Hi, back again.

I was thinking, what about LD bubbles?

I.E., if a Chaos Lord is within 6" of some cultists, then they are assumed to pass any morale or pinning test, but are subject to 'No Retreat!' or something of that sort.

Because heck, I'd be probably more scared of the Lord than I would be of the enemy. Plus, something like a Chaos Lord would probably inspire one to fight harder (if only to save their own hide, but still). And 'No Retreat!' would emphasize that kind of quality.

By the way, I'm adding in Enforcers are the pseudo Commissars of the humans. He'll be pretty much like the IG Commissar, except with access to different stuff, and also better priced.

Damn this is going to take a while...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Damn this is going to take a while...

Chaos does take a while. Our Codex - which is only at V0.2 mind you - is sitting at 21 hours for just V0.2. That's not 'I wrote it in one go on a very long day', that's '21 full hours of editing'. Not all at once, but it gives you an idea of just how complex Chaos can be when you don't Jervis the life out of it.

Yes, I just made Jervis into a verb. I verbed him. Heheheh.

Wow! That's definitely a long time.

I figure that today I'll be spending most of my time fixing up LatD, in between College visits of course. (Ah, the joys of modern high school... )

It shouldn't be too bad.

Here's my proposed list for LatD units that are going in:

HQ:
Human Champion of Chaos
Human Lieutenant
(Both come with a retinue, and are NOT independent characters. These will have LD bubbles so that if you want to play LatD you're not screwed for LD, though sometimes I feel they should all be running away, but I want them to be able to stand on their own a bit.)

Elites:
Big Mutants (These will be pretty much like Ogryns, except with more/different options and costed better! )

Renegade Psykers (This squad will include an Enforcer)

Chaos Spawn

Troops:
Traitors (This squad will be able to include Enforcers as upgrades)

Mutants (My favorite! )

Fast Attack:
Chaos Hounds

Crude Machine of Chaos (This will be a catch-all in a sense for weird machines like Stalk Tanks and other stuff.)

Heavy Support:
Leman Russ
Leman Russ Demolisher
Basilisk

The heavy support is likely going to be my biggest problem. Are the Leman Russes separate entries, or is it just, you get a Leman Russ, and then for +X points you have a Demolisher?

Also, should I try and make it so that you need Traitors to take Leman Russes and Basilisks?

Or should I just make it so that even Daemons (if they wanted to) could take a Basilisk? Because either it's really no restriction, or there is some restriction.

Oops, I totally forgot about Traitor recon! (Hellhounds, Rough Riders, and Sentinels)

Made up a couple new Psychic Powers for those who like Psychic Powers!

Imbue Power- In Close Combat, the model's CCW is considered a Force Weapon.

Slow Time- R:24". Nominate one unit or Independent character not in Close Combat, it is considered to have -1 I and counts as moving through difficult terrain, even in assaults.

Okay, for some LatD goodness. Keep in mind that point costs are still a bit, well, arbitrary.

Also, changed Extra Limbs so that it just allows one to shoot as a Monstrous Creature.

Tentacles has been deleted, and replaced with Daemonic Mutations as per the 3.5 Codex, meaning that it gives +1 A.

Breathes Fire has been downgraded to a Hand Flamer, that being R:Template Str3 Ap6.

I made a generic weapon called Firearms as per the LatD sheet.
It is R24" Str 4 Ap - Assault 2, Gets Hot!

Human Champion of Chaos
Pts: 30
WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:3 I:4 A:3 LD:10 SV:5+

Human Lieutenant of Chaos
Pts: 15
WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:2 I:3 A:2 LD:9 SV:5+

Weapons: Las/Autogun, Las/Autopistol and Close Combat Weapon

Options:
May take one of the Marks at the following cost: Khorne+8, Tzeentch+9, Nurgle+8, Slaanesh+8, Undivided+8, Malal+7

One of these 1 handed weapons: (Replaces CCW)
Power Weapon+7
Power Fist+17
Khornate Chainaxe+3

One of these 1 Handed Guns: (Replaces Las/Autopistol)
Hand Flamer+4
Needle Pistol+3
Plasma Pistol+10
Bolt Pistol+3

One of these 2 Handed Guns: (Replaces Las/Autogun)
Plasma Gun+10
Firearm+1
Bolter+3
Tzeentchian Arquebus+3
Assault Bolter+6

Armor: (1 of these)
Carapace+5
Power Armor+12
Daemon Armor+25

Equipment: (1 of these)
Bike+15
Jump Pack+8

Other:
Bionics+2
Servo Harness+15
Daemon Runes+15 (Attach to a weapon, may buy Daemon Runes for every weapon if you wish)
Combat Drugs+20

Mutations:
Wings+8 (move as Jump Pack)
Extra Limbs+8 (shoot as Monstrous Creature)
Daemonic Mutations+10 (+1A)
Frightening+10 (-1LD to enemies within 6")
Aura of the Warp+15 (5+ invulnerable)
Increased Strength+10 (Model becomes S3(4))
Talons+15 (Rending)
Increased Toughness+10 (Model becomes T3(4))
Breathes Fire+5 (See Hand Flamer, doesn't count as a CCW though)
Protection of the gods+15 (Eternal Warrior)
Subduing Gaze+13 (-1I to enemy in assault)
Daemonic Constitution+17 (+1 Wound)
Blessing of the Dark gods+40 (For Chaotic Attributes, instead of D3-2, roll D3-1 instead.)
Increased Speed+10 (Moves as Cavalry. Can't be used on a Bike or Jump Pack, or with Wings)

May be a Sorceror for +10 points

Models that are Sorcerors must take at least 1 these following powers:
Doombolt+20 (R18" Str 5 Ap4 Assault 3)

Gift of Chaos+25 (R:2", Choose a model, and roll a d6. If the d6 roll is higher than the model's Toughness, or a 6, the model becomes a Chaos Spawn. This power may be used in Close Combat if the chosen model is within 2")

Slow Time+25 (R:24". Nominate one unit or Independent character not in Close Combat, it is considered to have -1 I and counts as moving through difficult terrain, even in assaults.)

Wind of Chaos+30 (R:Template Str X Ap 2)

Warptime+40 (Reroll any failed to hit and to wound rolls, but must use the second result. May be used in either the shooting phase or the assault phase.)

Imbue Power+10 (Model counts as using a Force Weapon in Close Combat, can't be used on Khornate Chainaxes)

Sorcerors may also take any of these:
Warp Focus+15 (Doesn't work on Gift of Chaos. Add +d6" to any Psychic Power used)
Familiar+25 (May use an additional Psychic power.)
Talisman+10 (May reroll a failed Psychic Power test once per game)

Special Rules:
Chaotic Attributes (Optional, add D3-2 of any of these: S, T, W, I, A. This does add to (or subtract from) base stats)
Independent Character
Champion (may take up to 4 mutations)
Inspiring (Models with the Special Rule Minion that are within 6" of this model use this model's LD for any morale and pinning test)
Essence of the Warp


Whew...that's a lot of stuff. Please critique. As constructively as possible. The point costs make me worthy of the nickname Arby. But that's why this is a rough draft, right?

BrotherStynier wrote:
Vlad, did you remember the Plauge Sword for Nurgle armies? That retardedly cheesy but awesome power sword you could give to every AC in the Army.

I'm going to be honest and say that I don't. I don't have the 3.5 codex (though I am getting it from a friend for free), so I'll be able to look though all of the stuff.

What did it do, though, now I'm very interested! <-My favorite smiley it seems.

Also I feel that, though I'm trying to take a lot of stuff from the 3.5 dex, it also kind of helps to have new/fresh ideas.

:edit: Also try and find the cheesiest combos possible with the above statline I just posted. I made the statline about 20 or so minutes before I posted it, so some other takes on it are very welcome.

BrotherStynier wrote:The Plauge Sword, if I remember correctly of the top of my head, was a sword where if a model took an unsaved wound from the sword roll a d6 on a 4 plus the model dies, regardless of how many wounds it has remaining. Also its a power sword.

Crimony, that's good.

Perhaps this could be the Nurgle daemon weapon? (With some changes, of course)

Very cool stuff.

Do you happen to remember the other weapons for the other 3 gods of Chaos?

Because I really, really like the Plaguesword. Character (and MC) killer extraordinaire. I would love to translate the others over.

I'm kind of afraid of this codex being looked upon as "oh he just took the 3.5 codex and changed stuff" so that's also why I'm very cautious of using some things, but the Daemon Weapons I'm stuck with so any ideas are helpful.

By the way BrotherStynier, I'm wondering, what do you think of what I've proposed so far? Obviously it has a long way to go before I can call it a codex but any and all comments are helpful!

AllWillFall2Me wrote:one additional note: on your champion of chaos, why 8 points for the mark of undivided? Undivided, as far as I'm aware has always been the cheapest mark.

Hmmm...good point. I'll make it a lot cheaper. Perhaps 5 points?

I was also thinking that the Human Champion and Lieutenant could give the effects of the reroll to units within 6".

@BrotherStynier- Wow....That's a lot of stuff.

The Berserker Glaive is sick...should be at least 50 points if not more. I like the Axe of Khorne, and the pandemic staff. The Needle is sick, so is the Warp Blade.

@Focused Fire-

Personally I like to avoid Special Rules, but in the case of the GD's, trust me, there's lots already so I don't want to add more!

Okay, this is a big one, but how did Daemon Princes work?

Like, did you have to buy a certain amount of stuff?

And what were the Daemon Prince rules, and did they cost extra?

Thanks again for all of your help!

-Vlad

P.S. Daemonic Stature seems like a kind of no-brainer. 15 points? That's insane.

BrotherStynier wrote:"Chaos Lord is the term used to describe a commander who is largely still a Space Marine;the more daemonic gifts he has the further he has progressed towards being a Daemon Prince. As a guide line a Chaos Lord with more than 50 points of daemonic abilities can claim to be a daemon prince and should be modeled appropriately."
-Codex Chaos Space Marines 3.5 page 22

So his stats would be, base line plus abilities granted by daemonic gifts.

Hm, that's quite interesting, and I can see how this could get out of hand.

Comparatively, making a Daemon Prince in some of my proposed stuff is a lot more expensive. Making a Monstrous Creature Daemon Prince is very expensive, about 130 points before anything else, but it's still very worth it.

Again, thank you so much for all of the posts that you have made! : )

@ AllWillFall2Me,

I will now make the Undivided Mark 5 points. Do you have any other suggestions?

Also, thank you also for all of the suggestions that you have made.

warpcrafter wrote:
#2: Chosen and terminators that have all the special abilities of the big four and one additional god-specific ability each to represent their elite status.
#3: Bring back the special rules for the other traitor legions and a basic list of lesser generic army abilities that players could use to create their own chaos space marine/traitor legions.

I've been thinking about these two.

Chosen will be the only non-HQ choice to have the option for Terminator armor.

Their stat line will end up being:

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4(5) W:2 I:4 A:2 LD:10 SV:3+/6+

They will not have Slow and Purposeful, even though the Mark of Tzeentch would ordinarily give them that. Also, they will have Subduing Gaze (as per the Mark of Slaanesh) but it will not count towards their mutations. They have all of the Big 4 marks. Mark of Chaos Undivided and Malal will be the exact same.

They will be able to take 3 extra mutations, 4 if they take a Mark.

As the marks would ordinarily have no effect, they will get 'different' marks, that have been changed to fit them.

Mark of Khorne- +1WS
Mark of Tzeentch- Essence of the Warp (This allows invulnerable saves to be taken in addition to normal saves)
Mark of Nurgle- [I've been thinking, either they become base T5, or they get FNP.)
Mark of Slaanesh- [This is another one. Perhaps +1 Initiative?]

'Generic Daemons' hasn't been too bad.

I can theoretically use all of the mutations that I have suggested on them.

So a generic Lesser Daemon would be:

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 SV: --/5+

But then they can take Wings, Breathes Fire, Extra Limbs, etc. I'm thinking of allowing infinite mutations on all of them. I.E., if you REALLY wanted to, all of your Lesser Daemons could have every single mutation. They'd be like 60 or 70 points each, though.

Well except for Giant and Daemon Prince of course! Also, probably no 'Protection of the Gods', and maybe no 'Blessing of the Dark gods'.


Finally, the big one. Legions.

I don't like the idea of sticking things like, "Hey if you want World Eaters, you get one extra troop choice and you can't take missile launchers and you get one less Heavy support slot."

Really not a big fan of that stuff.

All Lesser Daemons are going to be troops, so if you want Word Bearers, take a Chaos Lord or Champion with an Accursed Crozius, some Chaos Space Marines with Aspiring Champions with Accursed Crozius', and something that gives some Word Bearers-like ability, and then some Daemons.

If you don't like this idea, feel free to let me know.

BrotherStynier wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

I've been thinking about these two.

Chosen will be the only non-HQ choice to have the option for Terminator armor.

Their stat line will end up being:

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4(5) W:2 I:4 A:2 LD:10 SV:3+/6+

Whats the T4(5) from?

Well I'm really just taking what Warpcrafter said and putting it into stats. The T4(5) comes from Nurgle's mark which gives a +1T but it's not base.

They will not have Slow and Purposeful, even though the Mark of Tzeentch would ordinarily give them that. Also, they will have Subduing Gaze (as per the Mark of Slaanesh) but it will not count towards their mutations. They have all of the Big 4 marks. Mark of Chaos Undivided and Malal will be the exact same.

Why would they have all of the marks, chosen are not just followers of all 4 gods.

Again, to be honest, I'm just following what Warpcrafter said. And I'm taking a little liberty with their fluff. They won't be really followers, but they'll have accumulated literally millennia of experience so they would have gotten many, many blessings.

They will be able to take 3 extra mutations, 4 if they take a Mark.

As the marks would ordinarily have no effect, they will get 'different' marks, that have been changed to fit them.

Mark of Khorne- +1WS
Mark of Tzeentch- Essence of the Warp (This allows invulnerable saves to be taken in addition to normal saves)
Mark of Nurgle- [I've been thinking, either they become base T5, or they get FNP.)
Mark of Slaanesh- [This is another one. Perhaps +1 Initiative?]

Why would the old marks have no effect?

Well, the Chosen get the +1 T, A, and W, and they also get the Subduing Gaze. So in order to avoid redundancy I created new marks for them.

'Generic Daemons' hasn't been too bad.

I can theoretically use all of the mutations that I have suggested on them.

So a generic Lesser Daemon would be:

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 SV: --/5+

But then they can take Wings, Breathes Fire, Extra Limbs, etc. I'm thinking of allowing infinite mutations on all of them. I.E., if you REALLY wanted to, all of your Lesser Daemons could have every single mutation. They'd be like 60 or 70 points each, though.

Well except for Giant and Daemon Prince of course! Also, probably no 'Protection of the Gods', and maybe no 'Blessing of the Dark gods'.

Never been a big user of daemons, I much prefer the Alpha Legion and Night Lords way of thinking. So this seem ok I guess.

Well there's these for people who want to make their own daemons, and then there's also the Bloodletters and Plaguebearers and Furies and whatnot.

Finally, the big one. Legions.

I don't like the idea of sticking things like, "Hey if you want World Eaters, you get one extra troop choice and you can't take missile launchers and you get one less Heavy support slot."

Really not a big fan of that stuff.

All Lesser Daemons are going to be troops, so if you want Word Bearers, take a Chaos Lord or Champion with an Accursed Crozius, some Chaos Space Marines with Aspiring Champions with Accursed Crozius', and something that gives some Word Bearers-like ability, and then some Daemons.

If you don't like this idea, feel free to let me know.

I think the old way sounds better for Legions as what you have just mentioned is pretty much 4th Ed's idea of how the legions work. IE paint job and give them something that seems like what that legion would use.

I guess that I'm a bit more of, well, a newbie and as such making a little box where you can choose one of the Legions (or a renegade chapter or whatever) just seems weird.

In the Chaos Codex, was it essentially just:

Choose one:

Iron Warriors- You get 1 extra heavy support, and may take stuff from the IG. -2 Fast Attack slots.

Night Lords- You can Infiltrate. +1 Fast Attack slots, -2 Heavy Support Slots

Thousand Sons- All take the Mark of Tzeentch and can put Sorcerors in squads

World Eaters- All take Mark of Khorne, all get Rage and +1 WS


Something of that sort?

BrotherStynier wrote:

They also had different options to take with them like the Iron Warriors could take Servo Harnesses as well as Basilisks and Vindicators, Alpha Legion got Infiltrate and Cultists, Night Lords got stealth, night vision and enslaved furries, plus the extra raptors, 1ksons got Sorcerer Chosen as well, small blast bolters. Things like that, things to give them each a little different amounts of character.

Hmmm...

And these didn't cost any extra points? Just free? Well obviously the equipment wouldn't be. But the actual factions?

I think I could do something of that sort. If it's what the people want, they'll get it!

Some other things that I've thought about:

-Possessed. Why not just make them an upgrade to Space Marines, a la Daemon Princes being an upgrade for Chaos Lords and Champions.

Meaning, that if the Chaos Space Marines take a certain amount of mutations (probably 1 less than the max) then for a certain amount of points they become Possessed? Possessed would definitely have Chaotic Attributes, and I could give them some other random and weird crap.

-Also, I mentioned a generic vehicle for the Chaos armies that could be used to represent Stalk Tanks and other stuff like Armored Limos for those who want to perhaps proxy Genestealer Cults.

And more and more, I am thinking of making the generic vehicle a BS3 AV 10 10 10 vehicle. But get this: The options are essentially the VDR. There would be some limits, of course. Probably nothing above AV12, and only maybe 3 or 4 weapons. And there would be options for transport capacity, of course.

Build-your-own vehicle, essentially. I think that it would be fun. What does everyone else think about this?

BrotherStynier wrote:Well some of those things cost extra points but it was like one point per model to give them Stealth, 3pts for a Commander to infiltrate 1pt for a "Normal" model, things like that.

Ah, okay, cool.

The Possessed idea wouldn't work as much because the "gifts" are just that gifts from the gods to turn them into immortal warriors, should they have proven their worth. I can look at the older Possessed today, and compare them to the new ones inoder to help you with that.

Thank you, that would be a huge help.

Very cool, thank you very much!

I will definitely be using the 3.5 Possessed as a template.

Anyway, unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I do a lot of stuff by streams of consciousness, so I came up with this. And yes, it's a remake, inspired a bit by the new FW model.

Bloodslaughterer of Khorne

WS:5 BS:3 S:5 T:5 W:2 I:4 A:3 LD:8 SV:3+/6+

Weapons: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, Dual Khornate Chain Axes
Wargear: Blessing of Khorne, Mark of Khorne
Mutations: Terrifying

Special Rules:
Relentless
Moves 10"
Terrifying- As per the Mutation. Gives -1LD to enemies within 6".
Blessing of Khorne- Acts as a Psychic Hood
Khornate Chain Axe- Gives -1 SV to models it wounds. Dual Khornate Chain Axes give +1A.
Mark of Khorne- Fearless, +1A

Whenever the Bloodslaughterer of Khorne rolls a 6 in any of its 'to-hit' rolls, it may gain an extra attack.

May take 1 for every World Eaters Chaos Space Marine squad. Does not take up an FOC slot. Can't capture objectives but may contest.


----
My notes:

To be honest, it's really hard. Khorne is kind of my favorite of the Chaos gods, so giving him a bunch of stuff is too easy. Hell, I was toying with a Khorne tank that was kind of like the LR Punisher. The Bloodslaughterer is the one thing I'm doing to kind of appease myself. That's it for Khorne-love. I swear. I will go and make some nice stuff for the other gods. I promise.

The Slaughterer is a fun kind of vehicle/monster hybrid. It gets 5 attacks on the charge, and more if it rolls any 6's. I'm figuring about 40-60 points. Yes, in case you were wondering, that's about the same as an Ogryn. But it gets 5 attacks, has a TL heavy bolter, a 3+ save, and gives -1 to Saves, and it's fearless.

I'm leaning to the lower side of the 40-60, but then a second glance makes me think at least 55.

Opinions, please?

By the way, I've been thinking.

Could Chosen take Jetbikes?

I've read some older background where some Legion (I think that it was the Emperor's Children) had Jetbikes.

And I'd probably end up allowing 0-1 squads of Chosen being allowed Jetbikes, and Chaos Lords having 0-1 access to Jetbikes.

Meaning, if you have 2 Chaos Lords, only one of them can take a Jetbike.

They'll be priced fairly, but I want them to be rare so only the cream of the crop have access to the jetbikes.

At most, maybe 11 Jetbikes (if I allow Chosen to be 3-10), and even then, that should be a fair chunk of points, but definitely something fun and different, imo.

:edit: Also, LatD will have access to Rhinos but they will be BS3. Squads taking Rhinos will not be relegated to Fast Attack.

I'm thinking of making them 6 points each. Guardsmen stats and equipment, but they also have Infiltrate if they're not led by an Aspiring Champion or other independent character except for a human HQ.

Enforcers will be squad upgrades and they will have access to Eviscerators and whatnot.

There will be Rogue Psykers. These may also end up being squad upgrades or Elites, I'm personally leaning towards Elites.

There will be upgrades for vehicles like 'Broadcaster of Hate', which will invigorate your own troops while decreasing the moral of your enemies. Perhaps +1 or +2 to Combat Resolution?

Mutants and Big Mutants: A definite.

Chaos Spawn: Will be reverted to essentially LatD stats and point costs.

There will be different marks for Vehicles, like Dreadnoughts and Defilers. They will probably be as follows:

Mark of Khorne-+1WS
Mark of Tzeentch- Is Obscured if not within 18"
Mark of Nurgle- +1AV, to a maximum of 14
Mark of Slaanesh- Fleet

Dreadnoughts will have Rage in lieu of their random cruddy table.

Defilers will actually be a threat. I may even give it Lumbering Behemoth. Would kind of make sense. But then again it's a Walker. Hrm.

It'll have WS3 and BS3, but will have Str 10. And 4 attacks at least. If CC Defilers are your sort of thing. They will have an upgrade to the Chaos Daemons Defiler. Its name escapes me at the moment.

BrotherStynier wrote:They wouldn't all be like the DA Jet Bike would they? Because I can see that being incredibly broken, in fact jet bikes for them could turn out horribly broken regardless, this idea needs play testing.

In fact most of these rules need play testing, but I'd play test the CSM Jet Bikes now.

They will be like a 'normal' Jet Bike if there is such a thing.

They won't come with Plasma Cannons standard. It probably won't even end up being an option.

These will be really expensive, too. At least like +30 points or something of that sort as even normal Jet Bikes are pretty good. So even if you wanted to have a bunch of Jet Bikes, 5 jet bikes is 150 points. And that's not even including the actual Chosen, which will cost a pretty penny themselves.

Actually, why not make it so that a Chaos Lord needs to take a Jet Bike before the Chosen can?