Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Some of y'all may remember me as the guy that was going to play orks, then chaos space marines

Well now it's between the BT the SW and vanilla

Soooo please just give me some input about these three armies :-D

Thanks in advance

I've been wondering this myself for a while now. I think it comes down to what units you like as opposed to any significant power within each codex.

I'm leaning heavily towards the Pups because:

New SM vehicle costs (cheaper than BT)
Wargear section w/ options
3 AC and 2 TH/SH in a Termi command squad
Cheaper Fists/ squad, though I think GH are more expensive

Wolves- all the advantages of an old codex (cheap gear, loopholes to exploit) and all the new toys of the new Space Marines.

They make Templars look like little girls in dresses...and chains.

BT
Prefered Enemy for your entire army? Yes, please!

Combine that with 15 man scoring units popping out of LRCs, as well as LC termies with Furious Charge...nice!

Oh, and did I mention....Prefered Enemy for your entire army?!?!?!

you forgot: Power Fists with only 1 attack, no fire support, overpriced equipment/transport 140 pt. HQ you MUST take to get fancy PE.

Don't forget the EC doesn't count towards the 2 HQ choices

Also everytime I reread the preferred enemy I forget what it does soooo...yeah

i vote wolves, because who doesnt want to control an army of Space Vikings with Guns!

Read "Battle for the Abyss" (part of the Horus Heresy series). You'll want to do Space Wolves after that.

Be careful tricking out wolves to exploit the current codex, however, as my guess is that they will see some dramatic changes with the new one (to sell models).

Ok so with space wolves I need the Space Marines Codex and Space Wolves Codex?

and like lets for example Land Raiders arent in the SW's codex so i use the SM's codex

but since Dreads are in the SW's i use their info?

Thanks again in advance

barisax1990 wrote:Ok so with space wolves I need the Space Marines Codex and Space Wolves Codex?

and like lets for example Land Raiders arent in the SW's codex so i use the SM's codex

but since Dreads are in the SW's i use their info?

Thanks again in advance

Space Wolves are hard to actually get the stuff you need to play. You have to have the Space Marine Codex, Space Wolves Codex, Space Wolves FAQ and Space Marines FAQ >.>


Currently, all vehicles use the Codex Space Marine rules, with the exception of the Space Wolves venerable dreadnought, which uses the rules in Codex Space Marines. I suggest Downloading the SW FAQ asap as it contains essential Errata that allows you to use them properly.

Space Wolves for sure! Not only their list is very strong at the moment, with the nice updates from codex SM, and their own new book on the way, with new models to boot. Then there's the Forge World SW terminator kit and the etched brass symbols that alone are a reason for doing them.

Hammer's just started a SW army, and I must say, they remain one of the coolest and most fun to play with armies out there.

I've seen some very nice Black Templar armies and I should have built them to complete the marine assault army trifecta(I have Space Wolves and Blood Angels already), but I think the Space Wolves have the most character of all the armies you listed. It really depends on what kind of an army you want to build. Vanilla is much better at being a shooty army than the Space Wolves, but the Wolves can currently load up on ridiculous amounts of power weapons/fists.
Now as others have suggested don't go crazy based on the current options as some rumors have a new Wolf codex out late this year.

Build Space Wolves though because what's better than 8 foot tall guys in power armor than 8 foot tall barbarians in power armor with axes and wolf skin cloaks?

Well Black Templar are awesome, you could play that.

I think BTs are the strongest list. Army wide Preferred Enemy is major.

SWs have the coolest fluff, but I'm not so sure they're as strong as people are saying, and they're going to get a new Codex relatively soon. Better to hold off and wait until then to see how they play, and what new models are out there.

Nothing is as annoying as doing up a squad of models, then 6 months later seeing a new release that makes them look like dumbtards. Striking Scorps, Eldar Rangers come to mind.

I hope this link will be of help to you or other potential crusaders: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/233173.page

Nurgleboy77 wrote:you forgot: Power Fists with only 1 attack, no fire support, overpriced equipment/transport 140 pt. HQ you MUST take to get fancy PE.

With re-roll to hit the one atack is exceptable, plus all experienced BT players put power fists or thunder hammers on there HQ's, saying no fire support is a complete and utter lie, unless you are a whirlwind and devastator junkie they have they exact same options (the las preds are actulay cheaper) the equipment cost and transoprts are fine and we have the awesome last ed smoke launcher rules so haha, the emperors champion is better than people give him credit for, work out what he does, for that price its a steal.

OK, here are my thoughts and experiences.

My friend Jon made a Vanilla list which he has been very successful with. It utilizes drop pods, and he has won one RTT at the Maryland Battle Bunker with it.

I came up with a BT drop pod list, that ended up being almost the same as Jon's drop pod. My only tournament play with it resulted in 3 wins, but I did not beat the score of the other 3 game winner. Otherwise, the army has been VERY successful for me. Fun to play, fun to play against, and if I don't screw up, it wins.

So, I decided to go back to my Space Wolves, for fun, and make up an equivalency list. I think the Wolves will end up being the better army.

Jon's Vanilla list at 1750 is Cantor, a 10 man sternguard,1 Ven dread with mulitmelta, 4 10 man tac squads, ( 1 in a rhino) and a thunderfire cannon. Those things rock! The 3 tac squads, sternguard and dread are in pods.

My BT list at 1750 is the EC, 1 8 man sword brethern squad in rhino, 3 8 man crusader squads in pods, 1 8 man crusader squad in rhino, 1 ven dread in a drop pod, and 1 regular dread in a drop pod. I have since swapped that out for another squad.
In place of the thunderfire, my pods all have deathwind launchers that can fire when they first come in, since regular pods can't.


My SW list at 1750 is 1 Runepriest with a WG bodyguard, all with power weapons and storm shields in drop pod, 2 8 man blood claws in drop pod, 1 grey hunter squad 8 man in a drop pod, 1 grey hunter squad in a rhino, 1 whirl wind ( see below), 1 WG Battle Leader, 1 Vendread in a pod and the pods all have deathwind launchers.

Here are the differences between the lists. The Vanilla list wins through volume of fire and volume of attacks. The Thunderfire pours a ton of str 6 shots on you, the sternguard have the ammo that wounds on 2, and with Cantor nearby, the tac squads and sternguard squads throw down a ton of attacks on you. SG are no joke with 3 attacks ( 4 on the charge!). And Vet sergeants with powerfists with 3 attacks are killer. The army is also stubborn, which is a hard hard thing to beat!

The Templars list wins because it can damage horde armies when it comes down, all the models have PE, the sword brethern have a power weapon and lightning claws at strike at Init 5 and Str 5. Where I have found the list to be weak is in prolonged combats. that 1 powerfist attack is horrible when facing a vanilla sergeant who gets 2 ( not to mention 3 if Cantor is around).

The Wolves list makes up for the deficiences of the Templar list in that the Blood Claws and Grey Hunters can have 2 power weapons in each squad, the wolf Guard unit has all power weapon attacks, the two HQ's are always Str 5, PW. While they can break, and don't have PE, their counter attack ability and berserk charge makes up for this with more attacks. The Wolf Guards actually get more attacks if they are charged! Finally, with Stormcaller running on the WG, they always go first when charged. That makes up for the loss of +1 Init given due to FC.

Now realize that I am basing this off drop pod tactics. I've found that Templar squads get pulverized, since they come in piece meal and not with drop pod assault rules in CSM. Wolves are more able to deal with this, as their best squads has a 3+ inv save, and a reroll of the armor save with runic charms. Templar squads are weaker when charged, as they get fewer attacks, and lose the FC bonus, while wolves get more attacks on the rebound. And the Cantor augmented Vanilla marines also have more attacks.

I've seen a mathhammer essay for Templars btw that shows that you do better with more attacks then you do with FC ( both with PE). I could only assume the same is true for armies without PE, although the essay did not take into account the effect of higher Init.

To summarize....3 similar lists. Vanilla Marines have more shooting, more attacks with Cantor and stubborn. Templars have PE, better drop pods, but worse drop pod deployment, can't break in CC but can retreat after losing 1 casualty to shooting, and can have a FC charge augmented squad. Wolves can have great shooting on the drop ( 4 plasma shots), more power weapons, a better defensive setup, can be broken as normal marines, can reroll the going first roll,and stop infiltrators from showing up. If I think of more I'll add them.

I love my Templars, spent a ton of time painting them, but while my heart says Templars, my head says Wolves, in terms of effectiveness in the game. As I pointed out at the start of this, the Templar list satisfies my 3 basic requirements....fun to play, fun to play against, and successful to use. I see the same for the Wolves.

Unfortunetly space wolves codex is no longer being sold by GW :(
Which means new codex soon!

And thanks so much for all the input!

barisax1990 wrote:Unfortunetly space wolves codex is no longer being sold by GW :(
Which means new codex soon!

And thanks so much for all the input!

The space Wolves codex hasnt been sold by GW for years, and "Soon" was meant to be last december.

But yeah, Space Wolves are slated for November or December 09, though Knowing GW they will delay it so they can release a new Codex: Ultramarines :Bitter:

Nurgleboy77 wrote:HQ you MUST take to get fancy PE.

I wouldn't make any 'compulsory HQ' arguments if I was advocating space wolves.

I say go for vanilla. Most up to date rules, least amount of confusion for 5th edition. More painting options and more fun unit options.

Shep wrote:

Nurgleboy77 wrote:HQ you MUST take to get fancy PE.

I wouldn't make any 'compulsory HQ' arguments if I was advocating space wolves.

I say go for vanilla. Most up to date rules, least amount of confusion for 5th edition. More painting options and more fun unit options.

I'll agree with you on Up to date rules (although that's debatable, GH are 5 points extra than a comparable tac marine but we get the option of 2 cheap Fists/Weapons and an extra attack), but don't lie about painting options and fun unit options.

Grey Hunters are more interesting then Tactical Marines by far. To say otherwise is like saying a Picture by a 5 year old is more interesting than the Sistine Chapel.

As for Painting Options, its the same as any other Army. See those Green Marines? I'm using the Blood Angels Codex. See that Pink Army? Black Templars. See that Purple Army? Space Wolves.

Gwar! wrote:...but don't lie about painting options and fun unit options.

whoa... do I know you?

Gwar! wrote:Grey Hunters are more interesting then Tactical Marines by far. To say otherwise is like saying a Picture by a 5 year old is more interesting than the Sistine Chapel.

In your opinion. SW have wolf tails, SM have purity seals. SW have sideburns, SM have bald heads. What you like isn't necessarily what everyone likes.

As for options. Count up the available units in the new space marine codex, then take a look at either templars or wolves. New things like vanguard vets, thunderfire cannons, land speeder storms, ironclad dreadnoughts, way more razorback weapon options, land raider redeemers, master of the forge, honor guard, etc.

Vanilla, Combat Tactics can preserve units to fight another turn... wolves and templars need to win in CC.

#2 for Vanilla. Special commander can alter the army to fit a different fighting style. Pedro, Vulkan, Sicarius, Khan... you have built in flexibility. BT or SW is CC win or die. This can be fun but it also can get boring for you and opponents can know what to expect. SM is now a big ? as there are enough different ways to skin the proverbial cat that your opponent won't know exactly what you are doing.

#3 for Vanilla. All the new option units in SM gives you more flexibility in your build.

Templar, Pups, or plain...

Why not all 3? Just take a bunch of guys, come up with your own painting scheme, get a cool name, and then play whatever you want. Perfectly legal. Dakka even had a post about a Genestealer cult going with Ork rules not that long ago.

This way *when* the rules change (and they will) you can switch over to whatever army fits your playstyle the best.

DAaddict wrote:Vanilla, Combat Tactics can preserve units to fight another turn... wolves and templars need to win in CC.

The difference is, Templars and Wolves can actually win a CC, unlike Nilla Marines who fold like origami. Combat tactics isn't that useful anyway as anything except orks that is a specialised CC unit will more than likely catch the marines on the Initiative test (and against orks, there wont be any left to fail the test/make a difference anyway)

DAaddict wrote:#2 for Vanilla. Special commander can alter the army to fit a different fighting style. Pedro, Vulkan, Sicarius, Khan... you have built in flexibility. BT or SW is CC win or die. This can be fun but it also can get boring for you and opponents can know what to expect. SM is now a big ? as there are enough different ways to skin the proverbial cat that your opponent won't know exactly what you are doing.

Yay for overly expensive Special Characters that are now mandatory. Way to be interesting. And yes, I sure am jealous of your 155 point Chapter Master who has a CC oriented statline (but has a special one shot weapon that you have to stay still to use) and only 5 S6 attacks on the charge, while my Wolf Lords have 6 attacks at S5 on the charge and always hitting on 3's for 131 points...

Oh wait.

And no, SW is not CC win or die, Space Wolves are equal to if not better at Shooty lists and are much more effective at Drop Pod Assaults (since the can drop in, doubletap, soak fire then assault). They also Excel in rhino based drive by attacks, or you can load up on Blood Claws and go for a CC heavy Army. So yeah, Space Wolves are Just as flexible as any marine army.

DAaddict wrote:#3 for Vanilla. All the new option units in SM gives you more flexibility in your build.

I think you mean the new codex gives you the chance to use Cassius, Shrike or Vulkan to make 1 trick pony armies? Not to mention Space Wolves have all the good stuff from "Codex: Ultramarines and Pals" anyway (Land Raider Crusaders/Redeemers and Storms are so much more effective in SW armies because of Blood Claws/Blood Claws and Scouts respectively).

So, why were Ultrasmurf Armies better again?

To explain my codex: space wolves not being sold by gw

I went to bell of lost souls and the new post was no space wolves codex blah blah

But wow I didn't expect so many people to respond to this thread :O

barisax1990 wrote:To explain my codex: space wolves not being sold by gw

I went to bell of lost souls and the new post was no space wolves codex blah blah

But wow I didn't expect so many people to respond to this thread :O

Hehe, yeah things can get rather heated here.

And yeah the Space Wolves codex has been put on hold many times, but the one that is out now is still very much usable and can easily be picked up off eBay (and you can also +++Deleted By the Inquisition, Ordo Herectus Ref:IA765a89+++ it if you have to.)

But yes, GW's actions do seem to hint at a new Space Wolf Codex soon, wither Q4 this year (like it was meant to be last year ) or a late Q3 release.

I was able to email GW canada about getting a copy of the space puppy codex a few months ago, they sent it to me in less than 20 mins through email.

im sure other GW sites would be willing to do the same considering
#1 they dont sell it any more
#2 it promotes the hobby to allow you access to the rules
#3 it was only like 20 pages to begin with
#4 you have to buy the space marine codex anyways to use it

ya well I heard if you type Space Wolves codex into a particular search engine, you can come across a copy of it in a certain site that specialises in electronic distribution of documents where you can print out a copy....

So I hear.