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Trip wrote:Tau don't have weak troops

I would mind even a small discussion here away from this other person.

Do they or don't they?

I don't think that tau have particularly weak troops, but the new codices have upped the power of anti-infantry weaponry to an insane level (see shoota boys, thunderfire cannon, LR Redeemer, lootas, any of the Leman Russ or Basilisk variants, etc) so that unless infantry (of nearly any variety) is hiding inside a unit with an armor value they're extremely vulnerable.

What makes firewarriors good is the devilfish. It's cheap, it's well armored and it's always got a cover save (over 12"). Just take 6 firewarriors within and you get a hard to kill scoring unit for 145 pts. If necessary the warriors can still get out and rapidfire a decimated unit to death, while the fish brings some heavier pulse fire.
I'm not sure about the kroot, at least they are cheap for counterattack or even scoring out of LOS, if they still get that improved cover save (not sure on that one) they might even be hard to kill in the right piece of terrain. Otherwise, supported by some hounds they're great at killing almost anything on the charge just by the number of attacks they'll deliver and the hounds initiative.
Thus I think both troop choices are definitely not bad, though kroot might be quite specific.

I think Tau have weaker troops than:

Space Marines
Chaos Space Marines
Imperial Guard
Chaos Daemons
Orks
Witch Hunters

and on par with:

Tyranids
Eldar

I dont know, nids have genestealers (still very good) and very cheap gaunts, which they can run in hordes. Eldar have dire avengers and guardian jetbikes.

Fire warriors are very expensive for what they do. They cost twice as much as a guardsman for effectively the same statline. Even with a devilfish they dont have enough firepower to really hurt anything. Ive seen big outflanking units of kroot do good things, but this has been more down to luck than anything else.

So yes, compared to every other army, tau do have weak troop choices.

get those FWs in CC then, heck yes they are weak, small/medium size squads with 2 WS

but in the shooting phase they have some of the best basic weapons, they certainly aren't weak by any standard

The problem with Tau Firewarriors is that they are expensive. Tau rely heavily on their elite and heavy FO slots. Because Firewarriors cost so much, you get less firepower when trying to field them in sufficient numbers to actually survive till the end game.

10 Firewarriors in a Devilfish can jump out and lay down 20 S5 AP5 shots (so, 10 hits, 7 wounds vs T4). Which isn't bad, but it's not exactly great either. If firewarriors were 7-8 pts, it'd be more reasonable. The other issue is that they're only Ld7/8, which means they lose 3 guys to shooting (likely at T3, 4+ sv) and they run a lot of the time.

Tau are very much an elite and heavy support army, although Piranha´s aren´t that bad in my experience...

If you want to use Tau infantry on the group as foot soliders then you need to apply about six things;

1) Full squads - that much is obvious

2) A team leader with a bonding knife - now your investement wont auto-run all the way to the egde.

3) Markerlight & target lock. Pick a squad. Hit it with a marker light. Hopefuly put a counter on (see below)

4) Multiple of the above so make use of your troop ML's. When you have 10 BS4 30" (Rapid fire is good but its 12" for everyone) str 5 ap 5 weapons.. you should be feared.

5) Atleast one point of stealthfield goodness. If you have a complete mech list with some Stealthsuits then all the anti-troop firepower will probbaly have no-where else to shoot at anyways but if youve got multiple targets.. you can really change that target saturation-thing if all of a sudden one of the other guys squads fails a stealthfield roll. Requires clever enticing yet not non-suicidal use of stealthteam members.

6) Cover < But thats a given.

Liquidwulfe wrote:The problem with Tau Firewarriors is that they are expensive. Tau rely heavily on their elite and heavy FO slots. Because Firewarriors cost so much, you get less firepower when trying to field them in sufficient numbers to actually survive till the end game.

This is very true. Firewarriors should be a bit cheaper, or a bit better. Kroot could actually do for a bit of a points drop also. Yes Firewarriors have a nice weapon, but they aren't good shots. I think what hurts Firewarriors, and the Tau army in general, is you have to invest so many points of your army to do one thing, like kill even a 10 man marine squad. I know this is somewhat the idea behind the Tau army, but it really hurts them in the 5th ed. having to dedicate marker lights (usually from another squad, like Pathfinders), then a couple of Firewarrior squads, then the Firewarriors Devilfish, then usually a Crisis team or two, just to down 1 Marine squad, is really punishing to the Tau army, it's even worse if they are trying to down a full Ork mob, or Nobs.

For what's supposed to be a shooty army, Firewarriors aren't very good. The average BS, plus the average AP, really hurt them. Yes their Pulse Rifles have nice range, but they are rarely going to use it because they are so vulnerable outside of their Devilfish. I've usually had Kroot outshoot their Firewarrior buddies.

And just having two, very strict, troops choices doesn't help either. If they could add some variety to their Trooops choices, or even just to the Firewarriors and Kroot, then it would make their Troops much better. However most Tau players I know, even myself, would like it better if we didn't have to take any Firewarriors at all, but we are stuck with the 1+ for them.

I've played them since they were first introduced in 3rd, and I think they are weaker now then they ever were. Just my 2 cents.

So what can I say to this Trip guy.

He's wrong because you all said so?

Tau have good infantry when one considers the Combination of the fws with the kroot, the combination of the two affords a great deal of flexibility.

In my game of apoc last weekend, I did not field P Engines in my WH army for fear of them dying to small arms from the tau infantry weaponry, that's a pretty impressive claim, the kroot in the game attacked on both flanks on turn 3 and gutted the units on the borders of the table due to getting the charge then moved into woodland and were very annoying and difficult to 'off'.

Tau infantry are good, but they are not easy, the sm is a ubiquitous jack of all trades with high survivability, the tau are a surgical scalpel and require clear objectives and pregame planning.

Kroot are right up there with an ork boy imo, if they take hounds in the unit.

I'd say the troops are below average for their cost. However, I think the biggest thing that makes them "weak" is their inflexible nature.

Everything a FCW squad can use is S5 AP5. Even their transport's weapons are S5 AP5 with considerably shorter range than the troops themselves.

The only role they perform on the battlefield is to kill infantry, preferably light infantry. They are required by the new rules to hold objectives, but their mediocre LD makes them ill suited to that task.

It is true that the Tau army rely on different units to kill medium or heavy infantry. It isn't unusual to use 400-500 points in a turn to kill off a squad that may be worth much less than half those points. I could probably remove the FCW contribution and kill those units, but I can't rely on the FCW alone to do so.

inlainari: My suggestion is to have Trip play a list with 6 full squads of FCW (or Kroot) against another player 2-3 times (to minimize crazy luck) and see what happens.

I only have the older codex and I haven't seen them played, but...

Doesn't Tau works best with a wide range of units using a sort of "bounding retreat/one step forward two steps back" style of tactics to wear down an opponent by attrition? I assume they are still masters of range combat? Kroot and Vespids only served to tie up the enemy so the Fire Warriors could do their job, right?

I'm asking because (again, this is old codex knowledge through the fog of history talking) I've always liked the Tau but felt they posed a unique challenge to run properly. Or, at least they're style wasn't something I was used to seeing or playing.

GoFenris wrote:Doesn't Tau works best with a wide range of units using a sort of "bounding retreat/one step forward two steps back" style of tactics to wear down an opponent by attrition?

You are talking about victory by point denial, aka "Hide as much gak as we can". Since area terrain LoS was nerfed, Tau JSJ tactics took a major hit.

fire warriors are very reasonable and powerful for their cost

they can take an 18" Assault weapon free or stick with the main gun a 30" WHAT 30" YES, rapid fire weapon, that is more range than any other troop type in the game on a basic weapon
throw in all the little trinkets they can get, bonding knife, ect, they are a very solid troop selection, and definitely not weak if you use them properly

fire warriors definitely do not a decrease in points

Firewarriors are pretty poor, I'm afraid. If they're run dismounted, there aren't many squads of them, and they're the only real targets for all the enemy's AP firepower, so they die quickly. As they take losses, their firepower begins to drop dramatically, unlike most other squads that get most of their firepower from the heavy/special weapons that will die last.

When mounted in a devilfish, you have an expensive transport that kills very little and is hauling around a mediocre unit. Assuming you unload in rapid fire range and get a clear shot at something, your 210+ point squad (12 FWs and Devilfish moving 12") will kill:

8 orks
10 GEQs
2-3 marines

Of course, then they're within 12" of the enemy, and with T3 +3 sv and average leadership, they won't survive return fire well.

Kroot are an awesome unit in many regards. Decent firepower for the cost, melee ability, infiltrate...they can't slug it out with enemy heavy infantry, but they are effective against light infantry and are much more flexible than Firewarriors. The new abundance of cover-ignoring weapons, however, really hurts kroot. The increased amount of cover has proven to be a boon for them.

16 kroot cost the same as about 12 firewarriors, do about the same damage as the firewarriors against targets in cover or with 4+ or better armor, have the same save when in cover...

Overall, though, the problem with the Tau troop options is that everything else in the army list is a better buy for the points. Troops end up being a drag on the army, as they take points from the essentials. Actually, the devilfish are moderately handy, as they provide cover for suits and such, but that's about it.

Liquidwulfe wrote:

GoFenris wrote:Doesn't Tau works best with a wide range of units using a sort of "bounding retreat/one step forward two steps back" style of tactics to wear down an opponent by attrition?

You are talking about victory by point denial, aka "Hide as much gak as we can". Since area terrain LoS was nerfed, Tau JSJ tactics took a major hit.

Ah, okay!

EasyE wrote:fire warriors are very reasonable and powerful for their cost

they can take an 18" Assault weapon free or stick with the main gun a 30" WHAT 30" YES, rapid fire weapon, that is more range than any other troop type in the game on a basic weapon
throw in all the little trinkets they can get, bonding knife, ect, they are a very solid troop selection, and definitely not weak if you use them properly

fire warriors definitely do not a decrease in points

Cool, I get it!

Grimaldi wrote:Firewarriors are pretty poor, I'm afraid. If they're run dismounted, there aren't many squads of them, and they're the only real targets for all the enemy's AP firepower, so they die quickly. As they take losses, their firepower begins to drop dramatically, unlike most other squads that get most of their firepower from the heavy/special weapons that will die last.

When mounted in a devilfish, you have an expensive transport that kills very little and is hauling around a mediocre unit. Assuming you unload in rapid fire range and get a clear shot at something, your 210+ point squad (12 FWs and Devilfish moving 12") will kill:

8 orks
10 GEQs
2-3 marines

Of course, then they're within 12" of the enemy, and with T3 +3 sv and average leadership, they won't survive return fire well.

Kroot are an awesome unit in many regards. Decent firepower for the cost, melee ability, infiltrate...they can't slug it out with enemy heavy infantry, but they are effective against light infantry and are much more flexible than Firewarriors. The new abundance of cover-ignoring weapons, however, really hurts kroot. The increased amount of cover has proven to be a boon for them.

16 kroot cost the same as about 12 firewarriors, do about the same damage as the firewarriors against targets in cover or with 4+ or better armor, have the same save when in cover...

Overall, though, the problem with the Tau troop options is that everything else in the army list is a better buy for the points. Troops end up being a drag on the army, as they take points from the essentials. Actually, the devilfish are moderately handy, as they provide cover for suits and such, but that's about it.

Damn, now I don't get it! Two conflicting posts, one after the other. I guess I'll just have to see a few games and pick up the new codex.

Couldn't you make the argument that in any army points are better spent elsewhere than troopers. I don't see how this applies to Tau any more than it does to other armies.

They're staple troops, and the backbone of a force, sure you don't get anything exciting but if troops weren't enforced in the FO chart, I doubt anyone would be using them if they didn't have to (including needing them to hold objectives). That's they way it is for any force.

Actually many of the armies have very good troops:

Ork boyz are cheap and plentiful, and will outlast, and once in range, out shoot the Firewarriors.

Basic Tact Marines are very flexible. Multiple weapon load, and combat squads.

Genestealers are just mean.

Plaguebearers, and Plaguemarines in their respective armies are very good at what they do.

IG platoons (new codex) are even more flexible than Firewarriors (especially with the orders system), and much cheaper.

even Dark Eldar warriors are better than Firewarriors, with their better BS, and can take heavy weapons.

Firewarriors unfortunately just don't make the cut anymore. They don't have the damage output for their cost. You really have to have multiple units + other help from the army to kill anything. They don't have the resilence to stay out of their Devilfish, so you see most Firewarrior squad min sized, and riding around the whole game. They can't really get any type of Ld boost. They just don't do that great of a job. Don't get me wrong, i LOVE the Firewarrior models. Ever since they were released i've liked them. But their rules have always disappointed compared to their points. They have always needed some more "umph".

Tau are a middle of the road army that in its very nature demands balance. I think this is why tourney players don't field them often.IMHO, The Tau don't react as positively to spam lists as others. The entire army needs to be balanced.

Because of this middle of the road philosophy they will always be viewed as too weak or too strong for their points. When an army is designed to be in the middle ground only people that truly value balance will like them as designed.

I'm currently writing a Fan-dex and oddly enough the only units that their stats stayed completely the same was the basic Fire Warrior Infantryman. They are a Markerlight and shield drone tweek away from being perfectly adapted to the 5th ed ruleset. The reason for starting the Fan-dex was more from a point of trying to fix the horrendous wording in the wargear section.

We are covering some of this over on the 21 page how would you fix Tau for 5th ed thread.


To sum up my opinion on this. The Tau Fire Warriors are very close. The only things that I'd do is make the squad follow 5th ed codex format by including defensive grenades, a team leader, and the bonding knives for about 7pts less than what they would be now. So 140 pts now as opposed to the 147 they would have been before.
Any other improvement will come in the markerlight system getting fixed and the drones getting reworked.

I have had this "debate" with several memebers of my gaming group, they see FW guns but dont realize how underproforming they are, primarily due to the change in 5th ed.'s rules.

5th made it a troops game, Tau's troops just don't cut it anymore. Yes we have 30" guns but you have to remember soon as we move they drop to 12" guns. Even then a squad of 10 FW can't drop anything without help of markerlights, and usually another squad (or at least mine can't). There are many units in the game that can get to us (18+ in charge range), giving us only 1 round of shooting before we get licked. I have watched a full squad of FW loose to a minimalist ork squad, stealer squad, or hormaguant squad that managed to get through my wall of fire i put up.

FW lack the ability to hold objectives by themselves, usually takes 2 squads. They also by themselves cant shoot an enemy off an objective.

I like tau as a cordinated fire army, and a middle of the road army. But in their current state FW are weak. A full squad with only a sergent upgrade and a bonding knife comes in at something like 135 pts. You can get close to a full squad of boyz in a trukk for that amount, easily get it if the FW take a markerlight, target lock, grenades or drones...

They're overpriced, ok? In general, they're too inflexable, and they're very easy to kill.

An IG army of 80% guardmans squads can work
An ork army of 80% ork boys can work
An marine SAFH with a ton of tact squads can work
A Eldar Avatar-bubble army with lots of infantry assets can work.

An Tau army with nothing but firewarriors? They have a guardsman profile and an armor save that is ignored by most heavy weapons in the game, but cost 200% the cost of a normal guardsman. This is a unit that can get shot off the table, that can break and run off the table, that can get chopped up by 90% of the foes they'll face... see a pattern here? all this is true for guardmen too, but you'll have a lots of guardsmen, at least; you have plenty to spare. but just 2 Full squads with the works necessary to make them viable on the table (ui, bonding, markers...) will cost you 300 points.


I'm just going to copy and paste one of my arguments from the tau thread focusedfire pointed out:

Since the baseline cost of the "yardstick" (imperial Guardsmen) unit went down, there is no reason firewarriors should be that expensive. they should go down in points to recognize this. As noted earlier (by myself and others) this would increase firewarrior sprue sales, make wiring mech armies lists more forgiving (due to lower costs) make gunline/hybrid tau less painful (due to more boots on the field) and generally be appropriate. I know some have said tau ought not to be a "horde army" but give me a break. you intend to make a horde with 8 point models that need outside support to deal with dedicated armor of any kind? Even orks can powerclaw stuff in close combat./quote]

Pls to note that was not a quote from me. I know it doesn't say such but a lot would tend to think it if they didn't read the post carefully.

I still stand by that they aren't really far off on points.

My counter to Milquetoasts arguements:

1)How many regular Guard can shoot down light skimmers with their standard equipment. Our take out scout sentinels.

2)Even with upgrades how many units can assault a monolith and have a decent chance of damaging it.

3)Range 30" S5 AP5 Rapid fire can do quite a bit of damage in the right situations

Fire warriors are fine, its just the markerlight system that needs to be reworked. If you slap a couple markerlights on a target, and use them to increase fire warrior BS to 5, they'll annihilate things. Fire warriors are extremely deadly with markerlight support. They don't need an increase in stats or a decrease in points, they just need a more flexible markerlight system. (I think giving a pathfinder squad free target locks for the whole squad could help.) I think the tau army in general should become more markerlight reliant as their main army special rule. An unsupported tau unit should be underwhelming, but with markerlight support can become downright devestating. The tau army style should be one that requires units to work together to be effective.

Firewarriors are terrible and mine seldom leave their transports. Kroot are far better than FW as the workhorse troop choice.

Capt K

focusedfire wrote:

2)Even with upgrades how many units can assault a monolith and have a decent chance of damaging it.

EMP grenades are a complete waste of points that make firewarriors ridiculously expensive. Tau have some of the best dedicated anti-tank in the game. Points are better spent on broadsides or a hammerhead than giving firewarriors a chance to maybe kill a vehicle if one gets into your lines.

focusedfire wrote:
3)Range 30" S5 AP5 Rapid fire can do quite a bit of damage in the right situations

It doesn't justify them being 10 points, though. At 30", a squad 10 FW shooting MEQs will hit half the time, wound 3-4, and then 1 or 2 will fail a save, which isn't too bad. At 12", a squad of FW double-tapping will kill 3-4, and then the MEQs will make their Ld test, and charge the firewarriors and kill all of them. So they're decent at >12", and good but doomed at <12".

If you increase their BS with a markerlight, then yes, they do a lot more damage. But that should be reflected in the markerlight cost. Otherwise, we pay a premium for combo that only works when we pay for the other half as well.

Tau Fire Warriors suffer similiarly the same way that eldar troops do, and this is why everyone gravitates towards the mech eldar list.

Tau can do mech pretty well also, with min sized firewarrior squads basically flying around in Disruption Pod + Flechette Launcher equipped SMS devilfish with 3x Railheads and stealth suits.

I agree tau are bad when they just sit there and shoot you need to have them flying around in devil fishes shooting people personally i think that full fire warrior with pulse rifles in a devil fish with disruptions pods is one of the best choices you can take.