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Using my Biovore with bio acid mine spores in a friendly game tomorrow against my brother

now i understand it range is 48 inches, but a tyranid player at our local store said the mines after landing can scatter A roll a D6 plus scatter in the MOVEMENT and the RUNNING phases? not sure if thats correct.

Also if i shoot one mine per turn are they considered in the same cluster and all detonate at once???

if i deepstrike 4 mines can i roll a dice for each mine if i consider them each a cluster??

Most of these questions are pretty clear in the codex (except for the Spore Mine running question).

Do you not have a codex? It's going to be pretty tough for you to play your game without one even if we explain what to do.

i do have a codex, and these are questions i'm still NOT understanding....

are all mines from the same biovore cinsidered to be in the same cluster???

can they RUN?

The deepstrike one i figured out...

Mr.Tangent wrote:i do have a codex, and these are questions i'm still NOT understanding....

are all mines from the same biovore cinsidered to be in the same cluster???

can they RUN?

The deepstrike one i figured out...

A Biovore can only fire a single mine a turn. However if you have more than one Biovore and they fire in the same shooting phase they fire together. You place one spore mine model as the target and if it hits the target and detonates then you resolve all the mines in the cluster (which is 1-3 depending on how many biovore models you have in play) as a single barrage using the rules in the rulebook for a multiple barrage.

If your target spore mine misses its target and doesn't land on an enemy model then you place the mine on the table and create a cluster with the other spore mine models that were fired along with it.


As for running, the rules do seem to allow it, but you probably want to talk about it with your opponent beforehand to make sure you both agree. If you do allow it to happen, you would still follow the basic rules for moving a spore mine cluster, meaning that you roll a scatter die and if a 'hit' is rolled you get to move the mines in a direction of your choice and if an 'arrow' is rolled then they scatter in the direction indicated.

I disagree.
per: Pg28 'Spore Mine Clusters' pp2 of the Tyranid codex:
"Due to their unique nature and mode of attack, Spore Mines use a number of special rules:"
Pg29
"Movement: Spore Mine Clusters drift d6" in the direction rolled on a scatter dice each turn."

and AOBR rulebook p16 callout: RUN!
"In their shooting phase units may choose to run instead of firing..."

Spore mines do not have an opportunity to fire in the shooting phase due to:
a: No weapon in their profile in the codex
b: Specific rules on detonation resolved in movement

The spore mine does not have a valid action to exchange (key word: instead) for a run move.

You're saying that you need a weapon to fire to run? Wouldn't that make Genestealers unable to run?

I'm of the "Can't run" camp.

My position is based on the no weapon, and their especially outlined move rules.
Where Genestealers do fall under my initial (A) position they do not have specific movement rules outlined for them (B).

Having had a moment to look over the RAW its a stupid bit of caviling, counterintuitive, and really should be clarified.
The 'Run!' call out mentions models with no ranged weapon specifically, not the inability to shoot. INAT FAQ handles the spore mines only.

Request sent to the appropriate FAQ threads with proposed 5 character fix.

Oldgrue wrote:I disagree.
per: Pg28 'Spore Mine Clusters' pp2 of the Tyranid codex:
"Due to their unique nature and mode of attack, Spore Mines use a number of special rules:"
Pg29
"Movement: Spore Mine Clusters drift d6" in the direction rolled on a scatter dice each turn."

and AOBR rulebook p16 callout: RUN!
"In their shooting phase units may choose to run instead of firing..."

Spore mines do not have an opportunity to fire in the shooting phase due to:
a: No weapon in their profile in the codex
b: Specific rules on detonation resolved in movement

The spore mine does not have a valid action to exchange (key word: instead) for a run move.

Wow, that is the biggest load of rubbish I have EVER heard in my life. By that logic, Genestealers cannot run, even though they have fleet. Beasts all have fleet, but very few have guns. Can they not run either? What About Wraiths?

Your argument is utter nonsense. Spore Mines, RaW can run, but they run in a random direction as per their own special movement rules.

Please note my above edit. It takes 5 characters to fix this 'load of rubbish'.
"no ability whatsoever" is rather specific (Zero-Level Characteristics) unless my English is bad.

I agree that fleet should allow a model to run since "A unit with this rule may assault in the same turn in which it has run" implies that fleet models can run.

As for Spore Mines running, that's pretty stupid as well since their entry specifically includes the word "drift" and "Mindless" But mindless drifting things do a whole lot of running about - check with a balloon or a jellyfish. RAW do not denote spore mines as infantry, and the sloppy rules also note "Each Turn" rather than Player Turn or Game Turn - yet we presume game turn. RAI.

I proposed an addition to the FAQ that would define all of these options as available resolving this issue being 'rubbish' rather than citing inferred rules dependent on my position.

I'm sorry, but this is a non issue. Noone in their right mind will say genestealers cannot run.

Even I, Mr RaW Bastard, don't even think this.

Many units in the game have movement restrictions (units with rage, creatures out of synapse). However, these units can run... In the BRB it states that a creature with rage can choose to run but may do so only if it runs towards the nearest enemy. What makes a spore mine any different? They should just follow their random movement restriction is all. I'm with yakface on this one.

All Nid units are infantry unless specifically stated otherwise. (FAQ)

Infantry can Run.

Many models have 'special movement rules', yet there is not change in their ability to Run.
Should a chaos dread roll for rage for its Run?
Should a jump infantry get to Run 12"?
Slow and ponderous Run 2d6 pick highest?
IOW, there is nothing in the rules that allow for any Run other than a flat 6".

Stealers, like Mines, have no gun, and a BS of 0.

There is nothing in the Run rules that say you must have a BS value to Run.


By RAW, mines can Run, and they can run a full 6" in whatever direction you choose.


All that said, They can also contest objectives, and count as a KP.
I advise playing the opposite of all 3 of those. (no KP, no Run, no Contesting.)

Well surely direction plays a part in this. Rage causes the model to run towards the closest enemy (if it chooses to run that is). Instinctive behaviour forces to move the nids towards the nearest synapse creature. All I'm saying is that if they choose to run any restrictions that apply to movement also apply here.

@ Coredump-

Therefore a model with a zero stat (p7 AOBR) can actually participate in an action that it is denied.

"This usually applies to creatures
unable to use missile weapons, and so they have a BS
of 0, but it might apply to other characteristics too."
and
"units may choose to run instead of firing"

So despite having no ability to shoot, and no weapon to imply they can shoot, they can trade shooting for movement. Like being hungry and trading no cash, no credit, and no panhandling for a sandwich and tea.

Unless there's something I can't find that modifies the Zero-Level Characteristic

Direction isn't really relevant, because the model in question has exchanged its movement rules rather than modified them else the spore mine would roll a d6 for movement, 2 for difficult terrain, and choose the least in difficult terrain.

As for the 'RUN!' rule: "In their Shooting phase, units may choose to run instead of firing" thus must be eligible to fire - negated by their BS 0 as cited above.



Edit 1: grammar.
Edit 2: I kan speel gud.

The rules only require that the unit not shoot in order to run. Please point out where the rules say that the unit has to have the ability to shoot first so they can therefore run instead of shooting.

Ghaz wrote:The rules only require that the unit not shoot in order to run. Please point out where the rules say that the unit has to have the ability to shoot first so they can therefore run instead of shooting.

QFT, and what I was about to say.

I would personally say that Spore Mines can't run, but that just about everything else can!

Supposing that a unit/model needs a weapon or BS to run is stupid!

If I am holding a gun I can suddenly move faster than if I don't, or if I don't know how to shoot a gun I can not out move someone who can and does fire it? The idea is absurd to say the least! The rules for running are there to say you can:
a) Run
or
b) Shoot
but never both (unless stated in the codex lol). Just because b) can't be chosen doesn't mean you get denied a) that's like if someone lactose intolerant said they can't have anything with milk then you tell them they can't drink since the can only have a drink by not having another???

Spore Mines however are not treated as regular units and have a whole bunch of their own special rules, the codex is pretty specific about this. As such they don't count as scoring units (whoever said they do must be slowed) and have their own special rules for movement. As far as running goes because the codex does not address this specifically I would say you should discuss it with your opponent or a tournament coordinator. Being mindless drifters with special rules for movement it seems stupid to give them the choice of a "run" movement, under the lines of them being likened to a baloon or jellyfish. On the other hand if you use the rules for their random movement you could say it represents the Tyranids player's choice as to whether or not to make a mine particularly "floaty" so that it has a more random movement.

Ghaz wrote:The rules only require that the unit not shoot in order to run. Please point out where the rules say that the unit has to have the ability to shoot first so they can therefore run instead of shooting.

QFT.

Most likely the 1st and only thing I will ever agree with Ghaz on, so take a picture people

Citing my sources again:

Per: p7 col 1 pp4 AOBR rulebook:

ZERO-LEVEL CHARACTERISTICS
Some creatures have been given a ‘0’ for certain
characteristics, which means that they have no ability
whatsoever in that field (the same is also occasionally
represented by a ‘–’). This usually applies to creatures
unable to use missile weapons , and so they have a BS
of 0, but it might apply to other characteristics too.
A defenceless model will have no Attacks whatsoever,
while a model with WS0 will be hit automatically by his
enemies in close combat. A warrior with an Armour
Saving Throw of ‘–’ has no armour save at all

and p 16 call out "RUN!" AOBR.

RUN!
At times, warriors may have to quickly redeploy,
literally running from cover to cover or simply
concentrating on movement and giving up their
chance to shoot. In their Shooting phase, units may
choose to run instead of firing, immediately moving
D6" (we find that this is a popular choice for units
that have no ranged weaponry or no target!).
Running movement is not affected by difficult terrain
– it is always simply D6" – but models running
through dangerous terrain must test as normal. Units
that run in the Shooting phase cannot assault in the
following Assault phase.

Emphasis mine.

The key phrases appear to be "no ability whatsoever" and "instead of".

Again, we have told you you are 100% wrong. A model does not have to be able to fire in order to run. Are you saying that you would not allow a Walker who has had all its ranged weapons destroyed to run? Even though it could run before?

Secondly, copy-pasting from pirate versions of the rulebooks is pretty obvious when you cant be bothered to remove the line breaks.

Gwar! wrote:

Ghaz wrote:The rules only require that the unit not shoot in order to run. Please point out where the rules say that the unit has to have the ability to shoot first so they can therefore run instead of shooting.

QFT.

Most likely the 1st and only thing I will ever agree with Ghaz on, so take a picture people

@ ihatehumans - I agree: its contrary to sense that many models with BS 0 should be able to run.

What I'm hung up on is that these BS 0 models are trading something they can't do for benefit. There is no opportunity cost for shooting in the case of BS 0 models running that BS 1 models have.
In your example (A does not necessarily deny B) if there's two options: Milk or no drink (shoot or run), your lactose intolerant example has no option but to suck it up and goes thirsty because they can't have milk.

As the rule reads: "instead of shooting" so we presume the ability to shoot. Something almost all other units can do, so it makes sense that all infantry can run.

Oldgrue wrote:@ ihatehumans - I agree: its contrary to sense that many models with BS 0 should be able to run.

What I'm hung up on is that these BS 0 models are trading something they can't do for benefit. There is no opportunity cost for shooting in the case of BS 0 models running that BS 1 models have.
In your example (A does not necessarily deny B) if there's two options: Milk or no drink (shoot or run), your lactose intolerant example has no option but to suck it up and goes thirsty because they can't have milk.

As the rule reads: "instead of shooting" so we presume the ability to shoot. Something almost all other units can do, so it makes sense that all infantry can run.

WTF? Milk, what? Milk?

Seriously WTF are you on about now?

Why would a model with BS0 be unable to run? Because they cannot shoot? So then if I am right, you claim that if a model cannot shoot, they cannot run.

Can my Dreadnought who has suffered 2 Weapon Destroyed results run? Can my Wolf Lord who forgot to buy weapons run? What about my Space Marine Captain with Dual Lightning Claws. He cannot shoot either.

What about Shrike? He had dual Lightning Claws and Fleet. He cannot shoot, but if he cannot run, why give him fleet?

Also, how can you "agree" with ihatehumans when he disagrees with you?

ihatehumans wrote:Just because b) can't be chosen doesn't mean you get denied a)

Gwar! wrote:Are you saying that you would not allow a Walker who has had all its ranged weapons destroyed to run? Even though it could run before?

No. It still has a BS, therefore has the option to shoot.
As for copy/paste see also: fair use. Page numbers provided.

What about units that have Fleet and 0 BS? Did GW just do that for the hell of it?

Your entire argument is based on trying to twist about a few words in a passage of the rules. This kind of rubbish does not need to be on YMDC, the RAI are very, very clear. Assuming you aren't Gwar!.

By your example I can drink milk and be sick... poor example sorry.. I think this argument is over.

BS has nothing to do with running / fleet, or any movement for that matter.

its a simple choice.
either run or shoot, if they have nothing to shoot then of course they would run / fleet instead.
i dont see how having no ranged weapon would remove the ability to run.
thats like having your foot cut off and losing your sight as a result of the foot being removed.

there is nothing in any rules that prevents the mines to run.
allthough, i would think fluff states they cant since they are mindless, but maybe its a stronger wind thats pushing them further?

RustyKnight wrote:This kind of rubbish does not need to be on YMDC, the RAI are very, very clear. Assuming you aren't Gwar!.

You are correct that it doesnt belong on YMDC.

However, if it were a RaI argument, I would be agreeing with the grue or whatever his name is.

However, this isnt even a RaI issue. The RaW are as clear as freaking Well Water. Just because you cannot shoot, it doesn't preclude you from running. Not only is that RaW it is ALSO pretty easy to see, otherwise why bother making Beasts with 0BS (As they have fleet Built in) or things like Genestealers with 0BS and Fleet.

Now I wish for my Apology Cookie and Glass of "I'm sorry" milk delivered to me tonight please

three words: Red Herring Arguments
(look it up)
Nothing explicitly prevents a model with BS0 from shoot outside of it utter lack of ability. Having that said they cannot shoot buy MAY ALWAYS GIVE UP THE OPTION TO.
You lack a gun but are told you gave give up shooting a gun to run away. You have two options, wish you had a gun or run away. Just because you lack holding a gun does not mean you have the lack of option to not fire a gun. The rules say instead of not, trade for.
Your ability to shoot the gun has nothing to do with you ability to run away. In 40K there is nothing for free either we pay for in inability to do something else, run and not get to fire, or we pay for it in points, like models that lack the option for a gun.
STEALERS and HORMAGUANTS can RUN!.

EDIT:: Because i cant spell.

Where does it say that a model with a Ballistic Skill of 0 can not shoot? A lack of skill at something is not the same as a lack of capability. Nothing says that a model with a BS of 0 can not Run. As long as he does not shoot, he can indeed Run.