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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/20 12:23:01
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Major
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article6320891.ece
A missing link in human evolution may have been filled by a remarkable fossil that could be the common ancestor of all apes and monkeys, including our own species.
Darwinius masillae, a small lemur-like creature that lived 47 million years ago, illuminates a critical chapter in the human story when the primate family tree split into two branches, one of which led ultimately to us. The fossil could even mark the point at which the evolutionary lineage of humans, apes and monkeys diverged from that of more distant primate cousins such as lemurs, lorises and bushbabies. Its anatomical features suggest that it lies close to the origin of the human branch and that the creature, or something like it, could be an ancient ancestor of humans.
The almost complete skeleton, which is missing only a part of one leg, was unearthed in 1983, in the Messel Pit near Darmstadt, Germany. Its significance had not been noticed before because the fossil was split into two parts. The pieces have now been reunited by a team led by Jørn Hurum, of the University of Oslo Natural History Museum. The first analysis is published in the journal Public Library of Science One. As well as the bones, the fossil preserves soft features of the animal such as fur, and even its last meal: it was a herbivore that ate fruit, seeds and leaves.
“This fossil will probably be pictured in all the textbooks for the next 100 years,” Dr Hurum said. “This is the first link to all humans . . . truly a fossil that links world heritage. This fossil is so complete. Everything is there. It is unheard of in the primate record at all. You have to get to human burial to see something that’s this complete.”
The ancient remains are those of a young female and the presence of both adult and baby teeth suggest that she was about nine months old. She was about 53cm (21ins) long from head to tail, and about 60 per cent grown when she died.
She has been nicknamed Ida, after Dr Hurum’s six-year-old daughter, whose adult teeth were erupting while her father was studying the fossil.
The scientific name honours Charles Darwin, as both the bicentenary of his birth and the 150th anniversary of the publication of On the Origin of Species fall this year. The second part is taken from the Latin for the Messel Pit.
Ida’s importance stems from her anatomical characteristics, which appear to mark her out as a transi- tional form between two types of primate. Modern primates are divided into two suborders: the strepsirrhines, or “wet-nosed” primates, include lemurs, bushbabies and lorises; the haplorrhines or “dry-nosed” include monkeys, apes and humans.
While some of Ida’s features are similar to those of strepsirrhines, she lacks two key characteristics of modern lemurs: a grooming or “toilet claw” on the second digit of her foot, and a fused row of teeth on the lower jaw known as a toothcomb. The absence of these traits is typical of haplorrhines such as human beings.
Jerry Hooker, a mammalian palaeontologist at the Natural History Museum in London, said: “Importantly, this new fossil lacks a number of key characters of lemurs and lorises, but also has a number of key characters of all other primates. Given that D. masillae was at an early stage in haplorrhine evolution, with a mix of primitive and only a few advanced characters, in life it probably looked generally more like a lemur than a monkey, but with a shorter snout and shorter hind limbs.”
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"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/20 12:27:36
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Committed Chaos Cult Marine
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Another step for science....but where is my warp drive.
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And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.
Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/20 12:28:56
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Anti-Armour Swiss Guard
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Here in oz, we already know what the missing link is.
The Rugby league (professional) player.
The social skills that would shame a neanderthal, the vocal skills that would make them (the neanderthals) seem like Einstein.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/20 12:29:28
I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.
That is not dead which can eternal lie ...
... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/20 12:29:15
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
London (work) / Pompey (live, from time to time)
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im not really interested in evolution as such, but anything that can ruin the basis of a religion is allways good
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Suffused with the dying memories of Sanguinus, the warriors of the Death Company seek only one thing: death in battle fighting against the enemies of the Emperor. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/20 12:29:27
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Dusty Skeleton
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Its worth noting that there is actually no proof, they just think it might be
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/20 12:34:17
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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No its just the skeleton of the first government employee who worked for the DPS.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/20 12:34:39
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/20 13:25:44
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Deadshot Weapon Moderati
Under the Himalaiyan mountains
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Sounds to me like a lemur from the cartoon "Madagascar"
An intelligent lemur?
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"I.. I know my time has come" Tethesis said with a gasp, a torrent of blood flowing from his lips.
"No! Hang on brother!!" Altharius could feel the warmth slip away from his dear sibling's hands
Tethesis's reached out his bloodied arm to Altharius's face.
"I..I have one final request"
Altharius leaned close to listen, tears welling in his once bright eyes.
"make sure th..they put my soulstone in a tank... it'll be... real fethin' cool"
"Yes, you're gonna be the most fethin' cool tank!!" burning hot tears streaked down Altharius's face, as he held his brother's soul in his grasp.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/20 21:30:31
Subject: Re:Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Cool!!! another extint monkey that they can pass off as a missing link. Instant fame and adulation for the people that discovered this monkey.
GG
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/20 21:33:21
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok
Indiana
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Oh sweet god! I'm complete now! Missing link=world peace
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/20 21:38:27
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)
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The video is pretty interesting. Too bad I can't embed it. I would suggest you all give the link a click.
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-- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/20 22:04:03
Subject: Re:Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
The Realms of the Unreal, of the Glandeco-Angelinnian War Storm, Caused by the Child Slave Rebellion
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Cool. It's amazing the fossil is in as good of shape as it is.
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2 - The hobbiest - The guy who likes the minis for what they are, loves playing with painted armies, using offical mini's in a friendly setting. Wants to play on boards with good terrain.
Devlin Mud is cheating.
More people have more rights now. Suck it.- Polonius
5500
1200 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/20 22:29:15
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Major
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Velsharoon wrote:Its worth noting that there is actually no proof, they just think it might be
True, but the implications are staggering and it certainly adds a new angle to evolutionary theory.
I love stuff like this, it makes me glad we live in such interesting times.
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"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/20 23:06:31
Subject: Re:Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Executing Exarch
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True, but the implications are staggering and it certainly adds a new angle to evolutionary theory.
They only thing that is staggering is the lack of real research, Not to mention the "fly by night" way it was published....
More on Ida: overblown claims and a worrying precedent
Now that the scientific details of Darwinius masillae are available for scrutiny by those who weren't given privileged advance access, some doubts are emerging. Not about the significance of the fossil per se -- it is a magnificent specimen and important -- but about the interpretation placed on it by the analysis team, and the hype that has surrounded the announcement.
There is a feeling out there that publication has been rushed, and that the data don't fully support the sweeping claims that are being made. As Henry Gee (@cromercox), Nature's palaeontology editor, put it on Twitter:
When something has been dead for 47,000,000 years, you'd have thought that they'd have spent a little more time on it at this end.
The issue is explained well by the brilliant Laelaps: it is far from certain that the adapids, the group to which Ida belongs, are the ancestors of modern monkeys, apes and humans. The consensus view is that the adapids were an evolutionary dead end, and that anthropoids (monkeys etc) are the descendents of animals that looked more like modern tarsiers.
As outlined in the paper "Evolving Perspectives on Anthropoidea" (among others) included in the recent Anthropoid Origins volume, it presently appears that tarsiers and omomyids are the closest groups to anthropoids. This is based upon a combination of fossil, genetic, and morphological evidence. This makes the adapid primates, including Darwinius, a more distant side branch more closely related to living lemurs and lorises.
The team behind the Ida discovery are claiming that adapids like Darwinius are actually members of the haplorrhine group, which contains anthropoids like us and tarsiers. But as Laelaps says, their evidence for this is extremely limited:
By moving the adapids into the haplorrhine group they can then make the claim that anthropoids evolved from the adapid stem and not tarsiers or omomyids. The problem is that they are using just one genus, Darwinius, to change the placement of an entire group without using any cladistic analysis! This is not good science.
The bottom line is that the hypothesis that Darwinius is closer to anthropoids than tarsiers or omomyids does not have strong support. Even though the authors of the paper constructed a very simple cladogram they did not undertake a full, rigorous cladistic analysis to support their claims. I am baffled as to how they could stress the significance of this fossil without undertaking the requisite research to support their hypothesis.
In short, while Ida is an important fossil, she isn't all that. The authors haven't presented enough evidence to support their claims.
This would be an issue even if this discovery had been announced in the normal way. But it's especially serious given the publicity blitz behind Ida. As I blogged yesterday, a popular book, a documentary, a website and an exhibition have been launched on the back of this find, before it has received full scientific scrutiny. The interpretation of Jorn Hurum and his team may well be wrong. But their story is all that most people are going to hear.
You have to wonder, as did Karen James in a comment on my post yesterday, whether this research was deliberately rushed, and submitted to a journal (PLoS ONE) with a less rigorous pre-publication review system than Nature or Science, to fit with the media schedule. And why did the journal agree to go along with this?
I'm also concerned that a worrying precedent has been set here. PLoS ONE, like most journals, normally release their papers to journalists under embargo, to give them good time to prepare a story and consult independent experts. That didn't happen this time: I was shown a copy by the production company working with the scientists yesterday morning, but I wasn't allowed to take it away from their offices. Many other reporters didn't even have that luxury, seeing the paper only when it went live on the PLoS website at 3.30pm.
For media outlets that had bought the rights, such as the BBC, it was a different story -- full access, weeks or even months in advance. Is it really right that full embargoed access to important and controversial research findings should be restricted on the say-so of the authors, to media that best suit their publicity strategy? Especially when money has changed hands?
From: http://timesonline.typepad.com/science/2009/05/more-on-ida-overblown-claims-and-a-worrying-precedent.html
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/20 23:17:53
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Killer Klaivex
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I still don't believe in evolution, sorry.
Still, a new fossil is an interesting find. One more creature in the list that God forgot about.
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People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/21 00:38:24
Subject: Re:Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Fossils with fur for THE WIN!
Ida > Lemurs (even if they're better dancers)
Frazzled: No its just the skeleton of the first government employee who worked for DSS.
Fixed your typo
Cheese Elemental: I still don't believe in evolution, sorry.
 Don't take any antivirals or antibiotics, ever.
 In particular note, absolutely nothing that has been developed to fight against any intrusive, resistant microbe
other than that... ::huggles:: for you
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/21 01:05:08
Subject: Re:Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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I will be impressed when they find the missing link between apes and Humans. I recommend looking at your local drive-in movie swap-n-shop. It's the one with the pepsi bottle with half pepsi and half jack daniels, that he or she absent-mindedly gives to the kid to shut it up. For all that, they're always fun to party with and once in awhile will bail you out of jail. If they're not sitting next to you. (That is a sign of a really great party!!!)
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WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/21 01:07:39
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Killer Klaivex
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Ugh, you know what I mean. I don't believe that we evolved from ape-things. Other animals did, that is obvious, but we've always looked the way we do in my opinion. Don't start this whole 'Christians are tards, hur hur hur' thing.
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People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/21 01:15:32
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Huge Hierodule
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So, Humans are the only exception to the law? Why can't we find humans as Dino-age fossils? Eh?
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Q: What do you call a Dinosaur Handpuppet?
A: A Maniraptor |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/21 01:24:30
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Saying that humans evolved from another primate species does not mean that humans once were another primate species. We are human now and have been for about 200,000 years. Before that humans did not exist.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/21 01:25:15
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Killer Klaivex
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Because there was no dino-age. They were just animals that lived before the flood, and humans *are* the exception, because I believe that we were personally shaped and guided by God.
Oh, and a side note: To those who say 'Why doesn't God stop bad things happening', he's distanced himself from us, and we Christians are just closing that distance to experience a better life.
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People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/02 02:26:14
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
Ontario
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God Bless America!
Or in your case Australia but same diff.
By the way, expect to reap the swordwind in the next few posts for that awsome comment.
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DCDA:90-S++G+++MB++I+Pw40k98-D+++A+++/areWD007R++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/21 02:30:09
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Killer Klaivex
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I'm not really worried because I don't actually oppose evolution, I just have a different definition of it.
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People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/21 02:32:25
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Cheese Elemental wrote:I still don't believe in evolution, sorry.
lol....
How can you not believe that creatures/everything adapts slowly over time to better survive in its environment?
We have proof beyond all doubt that it has happened and still continues to happen.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/21 02:33:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/21 02:42:22
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Killer Klaivex
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See my third post... I believe that evolution is a natural process, but we didn't evolve from ape-things. We've always been the way we are. Don't you dare start the whole religion vs science argument again. I have reason to believe in Charles Darwin's work, because he was a *bishop*, and a devout Christian. He never even intended for this divide to occur between creationists and evolutionists. Isn't it entirely possible that the animals who survived the flood changed into what we see today in the wild? I think evolution exists in the form of animals changing over time to suit the environment, but we aren't descended from apes. Read what I'm typing properly, and don't you scoff at my beliefs.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/21 02:43:58
People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/21 02:55:23
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Executing Exarch
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I believe cheese is trying to differentiate between macro and micro evolution.
While micro is an established fact, macro evolutions still has a large amount of holes in it.
The thing that keep chapping my ass is the number of "scientific" discoveries that turn out to be fake and are still toted as the real deal in modern biology books!
Take the Haekel drawings, they have been know to be fakes since the late 1890's and yet they are still published as cannon.....
Here is what should be in your text book:
or
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/21 02:58:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/21 03:40:44
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Clthomps wrote:macro evolutions still has a large amount of holes in it.
A theoretical gap is a very specific discrepancy of knowledge. For example, there is a gap between quantum theory and relativistic theory because all current attempts to reconcile the two have failed despite the fact that they each possess testable predictive power. Evolution is a self-contained theory based on the assumption that the world we observe is consistent with the world as it once was. There are no holes in the theory. There are holes in the data that serve to support the theory, but that is a wholly separate matter which has little bearing on the integrity of the theory itself.
Cheese Elemental wrote:
I have reason to believe in Charles Darwin's work, because he was a *bishop*, and a devout Christian.
Darwin wasn't a bishop. He studied to be an Anglican clergyman, but lost his faith after returning from his voyage on the Beagle.
His devotion to Christianity is also in question, with several sources referring to him as a self-professed agnostic. Whether or not that changes his religious affiliation is open to debate.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/21 03:49:44
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/21 03:51:15
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
Ontario
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There are holes in the data that serve to support the theory, but that is a wholly separate matter which has little bearing on the integrity of the theory itself. Wished that one worked both ways. Generally it doesn't. I can spout off just about anything for example the earth is flat, and say there are serious holes in the data but that doesn't change the viability of my theory at all. Then I would get laughed at.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/21 03:51:39
DCDA:90-S++G+++MB++I+Pw40k98-D+++A+++/areWD007R++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/21 03:53:56
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Killer Klaivex
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You can't compare 'the earth is flat' and 'creationism is stupid'. It's apples and oranges. We can actually prove that the earth is round because we've all seen pictures taken from space and nobody's fallen off the edge. Unless earth is flat like a coin and rotates faster than the naked eye can perceive, which I doubt.
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People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/21 04:32:33
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
Ontario
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All those supposed round pics just look like a bunch of circles to me.
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DCDA:90-S++G+++MB++I+Pw40k98-D+++A+++/areWD007R++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/21 04:43:50
Subject: Missing link in human evolution unveiled
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Killer Klaivex
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-_- If we're starting a religious thread here, can we keep it sensible?
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People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. |
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