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Good morning. Search-Fu failing, need more coffee so here goes. Situation yesterday IG vs IG.

Squad is embarked in a Chimera. Chimera is inside a large forest. Player declared he wanted to move out of the forest ( at Cruising speed )but fails the Terrain test and the Chimera is Immobilized on its tracks. So for determining allowed shooting and disembarking, at what speed has the Chimera moved? A) Stationary, B) Combat or C) Cruising?

Since it didn't actually move I would say stationary, but I could be wrong.

A-P wrote: Good morning. Search-Fu failing, need more coffee so here goes. Situation yesterday IG vs IG.

Squad is embarked in a Chimera. Chimera is inside a large forest. Player declared he wanted to move out of the forest ( at Cruising speed )but fails the Terrain test and the Chimera is Immobilized on its tracks. So for determining allowed shooting and disembarking, at what speed has the Chimera moved? A) Stationary, B) Combat or C) Cruising?

It counts as stationary. "Declared" speed means nothing in 40k, you count as moving the actual speed you moved.

Let's suppose a vehicle has moved up to combat speed hits DT and is immobilized. What speed does it count as then, including stationary? This is important if it is assaulted the next turn.

G

No it isn't. Immob'd vehicles (except Walkers, obv) are always hit automatically. 'Good players' huh...

Correct, Immobilised vehicles are hit automatically regardless of previous speed.

Just to stress the point, vehicle distance traveled is a straight line from origin to destination. If a Chim with melta vets inside is going to move 12" through a forest, moves 3" and is immobilized upon entering terrain, then the vehicle only moved 3" for the purposes of the vehicle/passengers being able to shoot. Likewise, a Chimera that drives a circuitous 9" around some terrain, but ends 5" from its origin, is hit on 4's in the assault phase.

sourclams wrote:Just to stress the point, vehicle distance traveled is a straight line from origin to destination.

No, that is wrong. Under that logic if I move around terrain, I can move 12", end up 6" from where I started and still fire.

Gwar! wrote:It counts as stationary. "Declared" speed means nothing in 40k, you count as moving the actual speed you moved.

OK, good to know it was played right.

For the record: it was the Chimeras owner who was advocating the "Combat or Cruising" option, not his opponent ( so sportmanship points for both ). His reasoning was that the "Stationary" option sounded awfull lot like circular logic to him. You don´t take Terrain test unless you "move" but in this case if you fail you count as stationary ( having moved de facto 0" ) so how do you take test for having moved 0"? You don´t often see players passionately defending a ruling that is harmfull for them. He finally relented after some veterans explained that the terms "logic","rules" and "GW" are not necessarily inclusive .

sourclams wrote:Likewise, a Chimera that drives a circuitous 9" around some terrain, but ends 5" from its origin, is hit on 4's in the assault phase.

That's rubbish. Provide evidence please.

I know in the book it says turbo boosters must move at least 18" to claim their cover save, and 4th edition used to state models had to move a certain distance from their starting position, but I see no such provisio aside from Turbo Boosters in 5th edition.

Guess that means I can do Barrel Rolls and Loop the Loops in my skimmers to claim a Flat Out movement save without actually moving i.e. ending up in the same spot I started.

The Green Git wrote:I know in the book it says turbo boosters must move at least 18" to claim their cover save, and 4th edition used to state models had to move a certain distance from their starting position, but I see no such provisio aside from Turbo Boosters in 5th edition.

Guess that means I can do Barrel Rolls and Loop the Loops in my skimmers to claim a Flat Out movement save without actually moving i.e. ending up in the same spot I started.

For skimmers, you can. For Bikes you cannot because TurboBoosting still has the "must end its move at least 18" away from its starting point to claim this cover save" clause.

The Green Git wrote:
Guess that means I can do Barrel Rolls and Loop the Loops in my skimmers to claim a Flat Out movement save without actually moving i.e. ending up in the same spot I started.

You actually can. Remember that distance traveled and distance from original position are very rarely linked in any way. (turboboost being the only example I can think of.) Just remember that if you travel 24" in a circle, you can't then say, I'm right where I was, so I can fire all my guns.

Hrm, was thinking 4th ed. That's a bit interesting with regards to fast skimmers and turbo. An Eldar player who swoops in to contest on turn 5 and finds himself playing to 6 can simply do the fly-around (no movement) and again claim a cover save and is hit on 6's in assault.

Elessar wrote:

sourclams wrote:Likewise, a Chimera that drives a circuitous 9" around some terrain, but ends 5" from its origin, is hit on 4's in the assault phase.

That's rubbish. Provide evidence please.

Do you own a 40k rule book?

Pg 63, Rolling to hit against vehicles.

"Note: when assessing how far a vehicle has moved,
only take into account the actual distance covered from
its original position. Moving backwards and forwards or
driving around in circles does not help!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

sourclams wrote:Just to stress the point, vehicle distance traveled is a straight line from origin to destination.

No, that is wrong. Under that logic if I move around terrain, I can move 12", end up 6" from where I started and still fire.

No, because you moved 12". It only counts as moving 6" for assault purposes.

Yeah, you measure the straight line distance for the roll to hit in Assault only, for everything else (Shooting, Skimmers getting a Cover save etc) you count the Actual Distance moved, which was my original point.

sourclams wrote:Hrm, was thinking 4th ed. That's a bit interesting with regards to fast skimmers and turbo. An Eldar player who swoops in to contest on turn 5 and finds himself playing to 6 can simply do the fly-around (no movement) and again claim a cover save and is hit on 6's in assault.

Only for the cover save. The skimmer would still be hit automatically in an assault. Pg 69 under 'Rolling to hit against vehicles'.

imweasel wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

sourclams wrote:Just to stress the point, vehicle distance traveled is a straight line from origin to destination.

No, that is wrong. Under that logic if I move around terrain, I can move 12", end up 6" from where I started and still fire.

No, because you moved 12". It only counts as moving 6" for assault purposes.

As I said, I was not talking about assault, I was talking about the Vehicle firing.

As for the skimmer thing, just end up 0.01" away from where you started, and they need 4+ to hit.

Interesting on what this speaks for the deep strike rules...

I never imagined that you could actually be considered moving at two different velocities in different phases.

Maybe my thoughts on deep striking vehicles is correct...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

imweasel wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

sourclams wrote:Just to stress the point, vehicle distance traveled is a straight line from origin to destination.

No, that is wrong. Under that logic if I move around terrain, I can move 12", end up 6" from where I started and still fire.

No, because you moved 12". It only counts as moving 6" for assault purposes.

As I said, I was not talking about assault, I was talking about the Vehicle firing.

As for the skimmer thing, just end up 0.01" away from where you started, and they need 4+ to hit.

I'm pretty sure he was refering to assaulting, but I can see the confusion.

imweasel wrote:Interesting on what this speaks for the deep strike rules...

I never imagined that you could actually be considered moving at two different velocities in different phases.

Maybe my thoughts on deep striking vehicles is correct...

Deep Striking vehicles "count as" moving at Cruising Speed (As they have not actually moved), so would need 6's to hit.

Editted because other people already cleared up the point.

Fifty wrote:Well...

That leads us to a vehicle one side of a 1/8" thick wall moving a total of 12" to get around it, but then ony being its own width (say 3") + 1/8" from where it started...

Did it move 3 1/8" or 12"?

Advantage that you get to fire more weapons in the first case, but lose the high speed advantages.

If RaW doesn't spell it out, and I am sure more people will chime in, then people need to use common sense. Surely you count the distance you moved around scenery, but if it is open space then count a straight line?

RaW Does spell it out.

For The Purpose of you shooting, you have moved 12". For the purpose of them assaulting you next turn, you have moved 3 1/8", as the rules for assault say to "take into account the actual distance covered from its original position. Moving backwards and forwards or driving around in circles does not help!"

Gwar! wrote:

imweasel wrote:Interesting on what this speaks for the deep strike rules...

I never imagined that you could actually be considered moving at two different velocities in different phases.

Maybe my thoughts on deep striking vehicles is correct...

Deep Striking vehicles "count as" moving at Cruising Speed (As they have not actually moved), so would need 6's to hit.

Isn't that just for shooting? I know it's a seperate sentence, but it is in the same paragraph for 'In that turn's Shooting phase'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:It counts as stationary. "Declared" speed means nothing in 40k, you count as moving the actual speed you moved.

Except for deep striking...

Well, nothing in the assault phase part says it stops counting as moving at cruising speed...

Deep Striking is not declared speed, it is "Counts as", which means for all intents and purposes to treat it as if it had moved at cruising speed, even though it has not.

imweasel wrote:

Elessar wrote: Provide evidence please.

Do you own a 40k rule book?

Pg 63, Rolling to hit against vehicles.

"Note: when assessing how far a vehicle has moved,
only take into account the actual distance covered from
its original position. Moving backwards and forwards or
driving around in circles does not help!"

Of course. Unfortunately, my ability to memorise it doesn't literally extend to every paragraph. Does being a jerk help you make points to your friends too?

Gwar! wrote:Well, nothing in the assault phase part says it stops counting as moving at cruising speed...

Deep Striking is not declared speed, it is "Counts as", which means for all intents and purposes to treat it as if it had moved at cruising speed, even though it has not.

Guess that's good enough for me, but obviously there is precedent that could possibly override this in the general rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Elessar wrote:

imweasel wrote:

Elessar wrote: Provide evidence please.

Do you own a 40k rule book?

Pg 63, Rolling to hit against vehicles.

"Note: when assessing how far a vehicle has moved,
only take into account the actual distance covered from
its original position. Moving backwards and forwards or
driving around in circles does not help!"

Of course. Unfortunately, my ability to memorise it doesn't literally extend to every paragraph. Does being a jerk help you make points to your friends too?

Do you always put your foot in your mouth beginning with 'That's rubbish'?

Hi kettle, I'm pot. Damn glad to meet ya!

I was wrong, fair enough. But, the etymology of the phrase foot in the mouth includes references to embarrassment that simply don't apply in this case. Also, while theoretically true, who in their right mind moves a tank so far it can't shoot, but allows it to be hit on 4s in the Assault Phase? Even if the terrain is impassable this makes no tactical sense. Obviously there are situations in which it could be beneficial - but they are so few and far between as to be worth ignoring. Better to risk immobilisatin in the cover, and take a chance the enemy won't reach.

Elessar wrote:Also, while theoretically true, who in their right mind moves a tank so far it can't shoot, but allows it to be hit on 4s in the Assault Phase? Even if the terrain is impassable this makes no tactical sense. Obviously there are situations in which it could be beneficial - but they are so few and far between as to be worth ignoring. Better to risk immobilisatin in the cover, and take a chance the enemy won't reach.

The only reason I can think of is something with PotMS. I have rolled enough 1's rolling land raiders through terrain to at least have it as a possible use. I doubt if that would stop me from just rolling over the terrain, but you never know. It could also be impassable terrain...

But if it's impassable then tank shock the enemy 2" or whatever, take the 4+, but force Morale and shoot. It's a bit unlikely you can't - even a Crusader with only Hurricanes left can risk TS on a Wraithlord...

(gulp)...Gwar is...right. (What have I done?!?)