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An interesting thing happened in one of my games over the weekend. My opponent playing Fatecrusher assaults one of my Battlewagons with a squad of Fiends, a squad of crushers, and some other junk. The Fiends first, so he rolls for the one with unholy might. Gets one six to hit, which rends to penetrate. He then scores a six to explode the vehicle. While I'm placing my models in the footprint I find I cannot finish deploying them in the space left over.

He said I would be destoied. I asked him to show me where it says that in the rulebook. When we looked under the damage table and transports we could find anything that said I was destroied. Then we checked for the I can't be within 1in, and found that only applied in the movement, and shooting phase. At that point e argued back and forth on what to do for a minute, before I said that regardless of the fact he had more objectives and more kill points (we were playing the first Ard Boyz senario) so he won. My question is wether or not there is a solution or rule for this? Or, is this just a unknown GW is famous for? A page number to what ever rule you bring up would be much appreciated.

Well, if it were wrecked, then the models that cannot disembark are destroyed.

However, in the case of explodes, it seems that there are no rules to deal with this situation. I guess the rules are written with the assumption that you will be able to fit all the models in the space provided. Remember that the rule says "The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be", not "Placed in the EXACT AREA THE VEHICLE OCCUPIED SO HELP YOU IF YOU ARE MILLIMETRE OUT!", so there is some flexibility here.

IMO, you would just place them as best you can, staying more than 1" away.

I would treat it on a model-by-model basis, as the "Wrecked" result says to do.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:I would treat it on a model-by-model basis, as the "Wrecked" result says to do.

This is what I thought initially as well, but the wording on Exploding is totally separate and difference. The wording of "where the vehicle used to be" is also pretty loose.

Okay that sames like the best way to handle it.

The way my group remedies it is using the explosion radius to put the troops in. Makes sense since went everywhere.

Gwar! wrote:Well, if it were wrecked, then the models that cannot disembark are destroyed.

However, in the case of explodes, it seems that there are no rules to deal with this situation. I guess the rules are written with the assumption that you will be able to fit all the models in the space provided. Remember that the rule says "The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be", not "Placed in the EXACT AREA THE VEHICLE OCCUPIED SO HELP YOU IF YOU ARE MILLIMETRE OUT!", so there is some flexibility here.

IMO, you would just place them as best you can, staying more than 1" away.

I have been discussing about this topic with my local group and while they say that you have to keep 1" and that every model that does not fit will be destroyed. My point is that you do not have to keep the inch because it does not say so in this point and this placement is not a movement (i agree that if it were they would have to keep the distance).
Do you have any argument about why do you have to keep the inch?
I would agree in removing everything that does not fit in the footprint to avoid bizarre situations, but then, keeping the inch seems like over restrictive to me.

the way we do it at the store i play at is we first check to see which if any models are killed by the explosion the place those that are left using the emergency disembark rules if necessary

agalavis wrote:
Do you have any argument about why do you have to keep the inch?
.

How about that the only time you're specifically mentioned as being able to move within an inch is when assaulting? Are you assaulting? No.

BRB, pg61 wrote:
Destroyed - Explodes
The vehicle is destroyed, as its fuel and ammo detonate, ripping it apart in a spectacular explosion. Flaming debris is scattered D6" from the vehicle, and models in range suffer a Strength 3, AP - hit. The vehicle is then removed and is replaced with an area of difficult ground representing scattered wreckage or a crater (if you have one).

and

BRB, pg67 wrote:
EFFECTS OF DAMAGE RESULTS ON PASSENGERS
Destroyed - wrecked
The passengers must immediately disembark and then take a Pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck.

Destroyed - explodes!
The unit suffers a number of Strength 4, AP - hits equal to the number of models embarked, treated just like hits from shooting. The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be and then take a Pinning test.

OK, now that I've gotten that outta the way for reference purposes.......

Our gaming group plays it this way: You remove the vehicle and place a crater (or if we are outta craters, we have pieces of felt cut to represent the size of most transports) and then you resolve the Strength 4 hits against the passengers, the ones still alive are placed on the felt or in the crater and then we pile the assaulting models back in around them. Yes it sometimes requires the assaulting models to move back a half an inch or so, but the rules don't say anything about having to lose models that don't fit in the exact template of your vehicle. And If you have alot of old 2nd edition vehicles (ie. smaller size) like most of our group does there is no way a full squad will fit in the template of the vehicle. plus we reckon that if a damn vehicle explodes in your face you are gonna move back just a smidge or two from the explosion and concussive force of said explosion. Plus the rules specificly state under the "Destroyed - Wrecked" result that any models that cannot disembark are destroyed, but they say absolutely NOTHING about any models being destroyed or removed (except as casualties to the STR 4 hits) under the "Destroyed - explodes!" result.

And yes we have had some heated debates because as someone put it rather bluntly, it is better for your vehicle to explode than it is to have it become wrecked since according to the rules you don't lose anyone from the assaulting forces surrounding the vehicle 2 inches deep. And yes we had a SM player with a rhino get surrounded by a huge ork mob almost 3 inches deep and wrecked the rhino. The squad inside was destroyed because they could not disembark or emergency disembark because of the surrounding ork models. he then said, "So if they had blown it up instead of wrecking it I would be OK in the crater, right?" To which we all smiled/laughed and said...."yep".

YMMV, but that is how we play it.

~Bart

don_mondo wrote:How about that the only time you're specifically mentioned as being able to move within an inch is when assaulting? Are you assaulting? No.

This.

Kharnflakes wrote:the way we do it at the store i play at is we first check to see which if any models are killed by the explosion the place those that are left using the emergency disembark rules if necessary

I would respectfully disagree with this. You use emergency disembarking rules if the vehicle is wrecked and you cant disembark from the access points. In the example above, you are not disembarking, you are standing in a crater that used to be your transport.

~Bart



Automatically Appended Next Post:

agalavis wrote:Do you have any argument about why do you have to keep the inch?

How about not in this example because the BRb doesn't say you have to place your models so that you keep an inch minimum between them and the assaulters that just blew up your ride. It specificly states the surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be and then take a Pinning test. Do you (or your friends) see anywhere in that paragraph that says anything about placing them where the vehicle used to be, keeping a 1 inch distance from any enemy models? Of course not, because if you did that, you'd be able to place what...between 1 to 3 models, maybe a couple more depending on the size of the transport (GW vs scratchbuilt, etc.)? I mean, come on, set down a rhino, or chimera, or whatever, surround it by a group of models, then pick it up, measure 1 inch in and then mark it and try to fit more than a couple of models inside the ring. You can't. If they dont get this visual then its hopeless and tell them to just go back to buggering the livestock.

~Bart

If you are using older edition vehicles with a smaller footprint you pay for any advantages you gain if the vehicle is surrounded and wrecked/explodes. The most relevant rule says you may only move within 1" during assault. The models that destroyed the vehicle don't have to move after the wrecked/explodes result, therefore, only those embarked passengers that can set up an inch away from the enemy survive. The remaining survivors die as they try to exit the wreck and are hacked apart and shot by the attackers.

This is the price you pay in fifth edition. In fourth all you had to do was block access points and an embarked squad was dead, so fifth is actually a little more forgiving. Most savvy players can also place their transports or disembark if necessary to limit squad death this way.

Krak_kirby wrote:If you are using older edition vehicles with a smaller footprint you pay for any advantages you gain if the vehicle is surrounded and wrecked/explodes. The most relevant rule says you may only move within 1" during assault. The models that destroyed the vehicle don't have to move after the wrecked/explodes result, therefore, only those embarked passengers that can set up an inch away from the enemy survive. The remaining survivors die as they try to exit the wreck and are hacked apart and shot by the attackers.

This is the price you pay in fifth edition. In fourth all you had to do was block access points and an embarked squad was dead, so fifth is actually a little more forgiving. Most savvy players can also place their transports or disembark if necessary to limit squad death this way.

The most relevant rule is the one telling you what to do for the destroyed - explodes! result. Which is to put the surving models where the vehicle used to be. Now granted, we give the player a bit of a break (because we are all friends and this is supposed to be a fun game) and if he has 10 surviving models and only 8 fit in the exact footprint we move the assaulters back just a hair to get them all in, but even if we didnt and only let the player place as many as would fit, the rules do not state you have to maintain a 1 inch minimum in this case.

Barthonis wrote: the rules do not state you have to maintain a 1 inch minimum in this case.

Indeed they do, as the models are not assaulting.

You're welcome to give me a bit of a break if you like, and down at the game store I'm liable to do the same, but if we face each other over a tournament table I'll argue for the one inch rule.

The one inch rule is intended to show who is in assault and who is not, and "a model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting" is observed even with models that are "placed" on the table, like the Callidus assassin or Sly Marbo. The one inch rule is ironclad, in my opinion, and would require specific wording in another entry to contradict it, i.e., "The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be and may be placed within 1" of enemy models, then take a pinning test."

Nowhere do the rules state the assaulting unit "makes way" for placing surviving passengers, and that runs counter to what the game is about anyway. You and I may be best pals, but my ork speed freeks are certainly not going to take a tea break after blowing up your rhino so your tactical squad can sort itself out.

kirsanth wrote:

Barthonis wrote: the rules do not state you have to maintain a 1 inch minimum in this case.

Indeed they do, as the models are not assaulting.

Are they moving? Is there a general rule that says you cannot be 'placed' within 1" of an enemy model?

Maybe I'm missing the argument against, do you have page numbers that show that 'being placed' is movement in this case or that you cannot be 'placed' within 1" of an enemy model?

it does seem harsh that an ork trukk can only fit two orks in the back anyway. I agree the assaulting unit shouldn't have to move but I am worried that the 1" rule will lead to victory through modelling e.g. my trukk is 5 inches wide and 7" long etc.

Whilst the Disembarking rules never say it explicitly, the inference is certainly that disembarking is movement... As evidence, the first bullet point on page 67 points out that models disembarking from a transport that has moved may not "move any further"... rather than just "may not move."

The prohibition on moving further only makes any sense if you assume that they moved in the first place... and since the only action they have performed immediately preceding is to disembark, it follows that disembarking should be considered to be movement that doesn't affect their regular movement if they are entitled to take it (if the transport hadn't already moved, for instance).

insaniak wrote:Whilst the Disembarking rules never say it explicitly, the inference is certainly that disembarking is movement... As evidence, the first bullet point on page 67 points out that models disembarking from a transport that has moved may not "move any further"... rather than just "may not move."

The prohibition on moving further only makes any sense if you assume that they moved in the first place... and since the only action they have performed immediately preceding is to disembark, it follows that disembarking should be considered to be movement that doesn't affect their regular movement if they are entitled to take it (if the transport hadn't already moved, for instance).

But the explodes result doesn't use disembarking at all, unless there's more to the quoted section above.

BRB, pg67 wrote:
EFFECTS OF DAMAGE RESULTS ON PASSENGERS
Destroyed - wrecked
The passengers must immediately disembark and then take a Pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck.

Destroyed - explodes!
The unit suffers a number of Strength 4, AP - hits equal to the number of models embarked, treated just like hits from shooting. The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be and then take a Pinning test.

Gorkamorka wrote:But the explodes result doesn't use disembarking at all, unless there's more to the quoted section above.

Indeed it doesn't. Think I veered off track somewhere along the course of this thread. So don't bother reading my last post... it doesn't apply to the discussion at hand.

because of the fail wording of the explode results passage it can be ruled either way RAW. RAI treat as a disembark most likely

BlueDagger wrote:because of the fail wording of the explode results passage it can be ruled either way RAW. RAI treat as a disembark most likely

How can it be ruled either way RAW, exactly? I'm legitimately curious why several people are arguing that explodes uses disembarking.

RAW the rule doesn't say disembark, and it doesn't invoke or reference the disembarking or movement rules. And it notably does so in the same table as a similar result that does specifically use and mention the disembarking rules.

How can you say that RAI favors using the rule using disembarkation rules when the rule does not mention them and is right next to a rule that specifically does?
Saying that the writer was an idiot and used 'fail wording' isn't a logical argument for RAW or RAI, it's a deflecting excuse.

NOTE: My entire post is under the assumption that you can't place models within 1" of an enemy. If the rules specifically state move, then I will gladly retract this post and go eat some crow

As much as I hate to say it, I agree that you (obviously) don't disembark in an explosion.

However, I think in the spirit/intent of the rules, you shouldn't be able to place a model within 1" of an enemy. The only time (that I know of) that you are allowed to do that, the rules specifically allow for models to be placed that way.

I look at it the same way as deployment. There are no rules for deployment, but I don't place my beasts on the top level of ruins, nor do I deploy in impassable terrain.

Like I said, I do agree that the rule does not disallow placement within 1" of an enemy, but it doesn't allow it either.

zatchmo wrote:NOTE: My entire post is under the assumption that you can't place models within 1" of an enemy. If the rules specifically state move, then I will gladly retract this post and go eat some crow

Find me this rule. I will gladly accept it, if it is there. I just don't see it, and am getting annoyed at people in the thread stating it repeatedly without providing a reference.

The movement phase rules on page 11, talking about 'models in the way' while moving, state that 'A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement and Shooting phases - this is only possible in an assault during the assault phase. To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting'.

This has nothing to do with placing units after an explodes result, that I can see.

The major issue is that the explosion rules are poorly worded and do not state what type of movement/placement the placing of the models are. The rules for staying 1" from any enemy models are stated in ever place that "placing/moving a model" can occur such as Deepstrike, movement, disembarking, etc, but the explosion result is simply place them in the area the vehicle use to be but doesn't take into account if that is not enough room for the models to be within 1".

have to change my mind on this one and per RAW just slap them down where the vehicle was. RAI though prob treat it as disembarking as my major issue with vehicle exploded is it has the potential to be more benefitial to the player then a wrecked result.

@gorka

I don't actually have my book on me as I am at work, but the only place that I can even remotely point to is the deepstrike rules.

Bear with me.

It (I think) says that after you place your models after a deepstrike, if they are within 1" of an enemy, then they mishap. I will gladly admit that this is in reference to a deepstrike, but it does place (somewhat) of a precedent that move and place could be synonymous.

I know that this is very shaky, and I do agree that the rule does appear to say that you can place your models within 1" of enemies after an explosion, but that seems...incorrect, is the only word I can think of. It just seems to go against how other rules are written. But, noone ever said GW was good about consistency!

zatchmo wrote:But, noone ever said GW was good about consistency!

QFT!!!!!

Thanks gorka for defending my point while i was away
Now, while everybody defends the so called "rule of the inch", that rule is in fact does not exist, at least not in a universal sense. Everytime that it is needed to keep distance from an enemy model, the inch is noted. So that says that en every other situation that is not noted, you can place your models wherever is allowed, in this case you are instructed to use the footprint of the vehicle.
If the placement after the explosion counted as "moving" or "disembarking", the i agree that you have to keep an inch.
For the same reason that i say that you do not have to keep that inch, i also say that heavy weapons can fire after an explosion (in not pinned) but not after a wreckage. That is RAW.
If this is about intention, then i guess that the intention was that anyone that could not leave the wreckage is because is trapped inside (note they did not suffered damage), so the are no longer important to the game, while those that survived the explosión (note they DID suffered damage) are scattered all around the place.
When disembarking you moved by yourself and you were aware of your ending location (you keep the distance). During the explosion you where expelled anywhere and maybe the enemy was the wall that stopped your fly (maybe some wounds to the enemy correspond to having a marine in full armor hurled at you by the explosion).
So as I see it, I have the RAW in my side and also have a fluff history that could explain my interpretation for RAI.
For those that say that a 5 is worse than a 6 in the damage table, remember that many people plays with the vehicle "corpse" to block LOS as a tactic. That does not work with explosions, so he 5 is better there. And also, imagine having your mob of 20 boyz decimated my having to save at 6+ and then tell me that you would not rather have them disembarking... i think an explosion as written is far more devastating and that is the point.

Regardless of precedents in other rules you can't just add the 1" rule to a vehicle explosion result. It doesn't state it anywhere within the rule. What you are doing is breaking the “Rule As Written” by disallowing models from being placed within the foot print of the vehicle.

The fact that it states the 1" in the deepstrike mishap rule is as strong if not stronger argument for being able to place them within 1" than it is not being able to.

I agree that it’s fuzzy, but only because there should be a description on how it effects the models surrounding the vehicle. Not those inside.