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A funny thing I noticed while reading a ruling.

Under the terminator armour rules.

Terminators cannot sweeping advance.

Notice everywhere else in the rules for the armor it states "models wearing terminator armor".

However in the rule it just states terminators cannot.

Now a librarian can be given terminator armor but never becomes a terminator.


I checked the Dark angels codex also and it has the same wording, meaning Belial (Captain useless) can also sweeping advance.


If you wish to contradict me, please quote me the page that states a model wearing terminator armor is considered a terminator.

Space Marine 5th Edition Codex p102 wrote: Armour..
Terminator Armour
....cannot perform a Sweeping Advance

I think its pretty clear cut and your argument is a perfect example of rules laywering.

By the same logic (the reasoning the OP used) we can start transporting IC in terminator armor via the description of p102 yet that brings it into direct conflict with other entries (Rhino & Razorback Descriptions) in the codex.

So do we go by your reasoning, which obviously sounds sketchy and is flawed (as the exact same reasoning bring more conflict into play)

Or do we go by the standard status quo & assuming everything under the Armour section refers to models wearing the appropriate type of armor?

I dunno, tough call.

Face + palm.

Razerous wrote:

Space Marine 5th Edition Codex p102 wrote: Armour..
Terminator Armour
....cannot perform a Sweeping Advance

I think its pretty clear cut and your argument is a perfect example of rules laywering.

By the same logic (the reasoning the OP used) we can start transporting IC in terminator armor via the description of p102 yet that brings it into direct conflict with other entries (Rhino & Razorback Descriptions) in the codex.

So do we go by your reasoning, which obviously sounds sketchy and is flawed (as the exact same reasoning bring more conflict into play)

Or do we go by the standard status quo & assuming everything under the Armour section refers to models wearing the appropriate type of armor?

I dunno, tough call.

Face + palm.

No, actually rhinos and razorbacks clarify that they cannot transport models in terminator armor.

Timmah wrote:
I checked the Dark angels codex also and it has the same wording, meaning Belial (Captain useless) can also sweeping advance.


If you wish to contradict me, please quote me the page that states a model wearing terminator armor is considered a terminator.

rules are permissive, if it doesn't state he can he can not and while i am at it in one of the codi (i believe it was the CSM codex wargear section) clearly states that models IN teminator armour may NEVER perform a sweeping advance.

Regardless, it's still rules lawyering. Just leave it alone...

just checked the page it's page 86


it doesn't say he is a terminator but it does say that if he weas termi armour he cannot sweeping advance

You cannot sweeping advance with only part of a unit. If the entire unit can't do it, nobody does it.

Any model wearing Terminator Armour may not sweeping advance.

Is this like the previous edition where people claimed Terminators weren't wearing Terminator Armor because it didn't say so in their unit profile?

Kaaihn wrote:You cannot sweeping advance with only part of a unit. If the entire unit can't do it, nobody does it.

Any model wearing Terminator Armour may not sweeping advance.

Where does it say models in terminator armor can't sweeping advance?


Btw Codex CSM doesn't count because rules for wargear don't transfer between armies. (see wargear from dark angels to regular space marines)


On a side note: why do things that have unpopular answers thru RAW always make the person citing said rule a "rules lawyer". Maybe you guys are the rules lawyers claiming models that wear certain wargear always count as a type of unit.

Congratulations, Timmah. You have found a pourly written rule in a GW book. Truly this is a monumentous occasion. I never thought this day would come.

Now, just try it in your next game, but remember rule zero: I don't want to play with you. (in this case because you abuse rule-lawyering)

GW has actually disappointed me a little here.
I was hoping to point out that the wording was an archaic relic, and that the majority of codices DO state models in terminator armor can't sweeping advance.

Sadly,the break-down is as such:
Models: Chaos Space Marines
"Terminators": Black Templar, Dark Angels, Both the newest and second newest SM codex, Space Wolves (they say "see SM")
Other: Daemonhunters. Models in Terminator armor "may only consolidate, not advance."
Blood Angels. "May not sweeping advance" (Blood Angel wargear is listed as effects.)

So, bravo, my good sir, you have found a fiddly little word choice that is (humorously) most opposed by older Codices.

Deffgob wrote:Congratulations, Timmah. You have found a pourly written rule in a GW book. Truly this is a monumentous occasion. I never thought this day would come.

Now, just try it in your next game, but remember rule zero: I don't want to play with you. (in this case because you abuse rule-lawyering)

wow its just a little joke and loophole in the rules. I love how I am somehow a rules lawyer because of a loophole in RAW.
Actually since I am following RAW I would have to assume that you are the one rules lawyering.

Btw there are tons of loopholes in the rules especially with the new 5ed and old codex's. (for example old apothecaries saving failed cover saves on vehicles) However very few, if any of these mark the user as a rules lawyer.

No he can't

The face is now palming the hand.

Timmah wrote:No, actually rhinos and razorbacks clarify that they cannot transport models in terminator armor.

Ok. Um. Read.

Razerous wrote:
By the same logic (the reasoning the OP used) we can start transporting IC in terminator armor via the description of p102 yet that brings it into direct conflict with other entries (Rhino & Razorback Descriptions) in the codex.

Just quoting what ive already written. I stand by my original post. Which option would you now take Timmah?

Razerous wrote:

Razerous wrote:
By the same logic (the reasoning the OP used) we can start transporting IC in terminator armor via the description of p102 yet that brings it into direct conflict with other entries (Rhino & Razorback Descriptions) in the codex.

Just quoting what ive already written. I stand by my original post. Which option would you now take Timmah?

I'm not quite sure what you're saying. If in fact an IC wearing terminator armor did count as a terminator, then there would be no need for the extra entry under rhinos and razorbacks. In fact it would be redundant as it already states terminators can't ride in them.

So, you have proven that there must be some type of unit that can wear terminator armor but is not considered a terminator that GW doesn't want riding in a rhino/razorback.
Otherwise there would be no need for the extra rules in the rhino/razorback entry.

I would say you have strengthened my argument if anything.

I'm pretty sure there's an entry that says

"Models wearing terminator armor can't sweeping advance"

and another that says

"Models wearing terminator armor can't ride in a rhino/razorback"

How can you say that if the Libby is wearing terminator armor, that he can do either of these things, when it's awfully specific that you can't.

There is no loophole in the rules. Timmah is simply misreading the rules. A Terminator is whoeverso wears Terminator Armour, as so defined on p.102 of Codex: Space Marines.

It is listed in every codex that has Terminator Armour in the wargear section, under the heading of Terminator Armour. The wargear Terminator Armour prevents a model that takes said wargear from being able to sweeping advance.

Kaaihn:

Yes, it does say that, but Timmah is trying to argue that models equipped with Terminator Armour are not Terminators, since the term used to describe the prohibition against Sweeping Advance is "Terminators".

This can rightfully be called "rules lawyering" because it attempts to distract from what the rules actually state, which is that models in Terminator Armour are Terminators, and hence models in Terminator Armour cannot make Sweeping Advances.

Its funny because I do not see where it states models in terminator armor are terminators. Could you link me the text?

Wargear on different units can function differently.
(check heavy weapons used by terminators vs heavy weapons used by regular space marines or any tyranid weapon biomorph)

Anyways its just kinda a quirk, much like in 4th ed rules terminators didn't actually wear terminator armor. No real reason to get upset over it.

I understand what he is trying, and I am saying he is simply wrong.

Again Timmah, you are cherry picking and ignoring other relevant pieces, the same as the warp spiders thread. The entire section of rules listed under Terminator Armour in the wargear list of various codexes are rules specific to Terminator Armour as wargear. Any references contained therein under similar names (i.e. "Terminators", "Space Marine Terminators", etc.) all apply to the item the rules are specifically for.

As all wargear entries of Teminator Armour in every codex say that sweeping advance is not allowed with that piece of wargear, the result is that any model that possesses said wargear is bound by the limitations of it. Hence any model equipped with the wargear Terminator Armour cannot sweeping assault.

Terminators in 4th edition were wearing Terminator Armour. Much like you've supposedly found a loophole, but simply misread the rules, many players misread the rules during the 4th edition. Of course, much like the players during 4th edition were bind to the fact that the rules stated Terminators wore Terminator Armour, you will be blind to any text I quote stating that Terminators wear Terminator Armour.

Terminator Armour, Armour, Wargear, Codex: Space Marines p.102 wrote:Due to the powerful exoskeleton and power sources built into their armour, models in Terminator armour have the relentless universal special rule.

On the other hand, this armour is somewhat cumbersome, so Space Marine Terminators are not able to purse a more lightly armoured foe when they flee. Terminators cannot perform a Sweeping Advance.

So what does "this armour" refer to? The armour referenced in the previous paragraph, Terminator Armour. What are Space Marine Terminators armoured in? Terminator Armour. What are the quoted rules describing? A piece of Armour classed Wargear called "Terminator Armour".

Finally, there is a picture at the bottom of the page of a Terminator labeled "Terminator Armour".

Incidentally, wargear only functions differently for different units when some other rules specifies a difference. The example of Terminators using Heavy Weapons, for example, is because they have the Relentless rule, unlike Tactical Space Marines. The Librarian would need a similar rule to excuse him from ignoring any restrictions on the Terminator Armour that he would be equipped with.

Nurglitch wrote:

On the other hand, this armour is somewhat cumbersome, so Space Marine Terminators are not able to purse a more lightly armoured foe when they flee. Terminators cannot perform a Sweeping Advance.

So what does "this armour" refer to? The armour referenced in the previous paragraph, Terminator Armour. What are Space Marine Terminators armoured in? Terminator Armour. What are the quoted rules describing? A piece of Armour classed Wargear called "Terminator Armour".

So what would you accept as proof?

The passage that states all models wearing terminator armor are considered to be terminators

Or

Models in terminator armor can not make sweeping advances

Either must be drawn from the SM codex.

Okay. I will provide it only on one condition: that you provide to me the passage in Codex: Space Marines, that states Tactical Marines move 6". Do we have a deal?

Timmah wrote:Its funny because I do not see where it states models in terminator armor are terminators. Could you link me the text?

While it doesn't so as much explicitly, they do use the two terms interchangably throughout the Terminator Armour entry... and have done the same thing in pretty much every previous codex.

Timmah, you are still cherry picking a single sentence out of a large subset of rules and then apply it in a vacuum. This is entirely incorrect; you are quite simply doing it wrong.

Within the subset of rules of Wargear: Terminator Armour, the descriptive phrase of "Space Marine Terminator" and "Terminator" are both describing Wargear: Terminator Armour.

In full context with all the rules of Wargear: Terminator Armour, no model equipped with Terminator Armour may make a sweeping advance. There is no cause whatsoever to go looking for some snippet of rules saying specifically that models in Terminator Armour are Terminators. The distinction has no relevance to the sweeping advance discussion.

You simply cannot grab one sentence out of a six paragraph section of rules on one piece of wargear and hold it up as it's own rule independent of the rest of the game.

I think its funny how people pounce on him for this, but will rules lawyer til theyre blue in tjhe face about force weapons killing eternal warriors.

So this guy is a rules lawyer because hes stringently following RAW instead of RAI, yet you clearly ignore RAI and cling to RAW for force wep vs eternal warrior.

Its pretty obvious when they say all types of instant death they mean anything that will kill a multiple wound mini in a single wound, force weapons cause a "type" of instant death, just because you rules lawyer and say oh no its not instant death, its slain outright are just kidding yourselves ....

On topic tho, more gw incompetance lol, but clearly RAI means no sweeping advance, as well as RAW in the wargear section describing the armor.

Kaaihn wrote:Timmah, you are still cherry picking a single sentence out of a large subset of rules and then apply it in a vacuum. This is entirely incorrect; you are quite simply doing it wrong.

Within the subset of rules of Wargear: Terminator Armour, the descriptive phrase of "Space Marine Terminator" and "Terminator" are both describing Wargear: Terminator Armour.

In full context with all the rules of Wargear: Terminator Armour, no model equipped with Terminator Armour may make a sweeping advance. There is no cause whatsoever to go looking for some snippet of rules saying specifically that models in Terminator Armour are Terminators. The distinction has no relevance to the sweeping advance discussion.

You simply cannot grab one sentence out of a six paragraph section of rules on one piece of wargear and hold it up as it's own rule independent of the rest of the game.

as I said, all terminators wear terminator armour. However just because its in the rules subset doesn't mean it applies to all units wearing terminator armor. It only applies to terminators wearing said armor. As stated in the description.

Why would they say terminator armor for everything but this one entry?
Maybe my Librarian is so heroic he is not hindered by the armour.