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**Phryxis**

So, there's been a month long freak out about the Jaws of the World Wolf. Or Lash of the World Wolf. Whatever it's called...

Now that I have the Codex, I observe p 81:

"[No] two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same psychic powers, or wargear combination."

What does this actually mean?

The saga piece seems straightforward.

The psychic powers and wargear is less so.

Can only one model in the whole army have JotWW? Or can four, so long as they have different second powers? Or can four, even if they have the same powers, so long as they have different wargear?

My read is that they have to take a different combination of psychic powers.

AND they have to take a different combination of wargear.

Thoughts?

**Orkeosaurus**

It's unclear.

It seems like the more common reading is that two Rune Priests may have the same power if they have a different power as well.

**Gwar!**

By Russ and The Allfather not this again

It is clear that you can take:
Rune Priest with JotWW and Power B
and
Rune Priest with JotWW and Power C

It's just that some people are afraid of JotWW (it's not that powerful, and is rendered useless by Transports, that 99% of armies are in anyway).

PS. UNOFFICIAL FAQ (Yes shameless plug

)

**Ripister**

Gwar! wrote:By Russ and The Allfather not this again

It is clear that you can take:
Rune Priest with JotWW and Power B
and
Rune Priest with JotWW and Power C

It's just that some people are afraid of JotWW (it's not that powerful, and is rendered useless by Transports, that 99% of armies are in anyway).

PS. UNOFFICIAL FAQ (Yes shameless plug )

Any chance you can make a sticky post about this because my god i can bet 1000 bucks another person will ask this

**coredump**

Nah, thats part of the fun of a new codex....

**Ordznik**

Gwar! wrote:By Russ and The Allfather not this again

It is clear that you can take:
Rune Priest with JotWW and Power B
and
Rune Priest with JotWW and Power C

It's just that some people are afraid of JotWW (it's not that powerful, and is rendered useless by Transports, that 99% of armies are in anyway).

PS. UNOFFICIAL FAQ (Yes shameless plug )

Has anyone ever told you how awesome you are on rules that are clearly written, Gwar?

I'm being entirely serious about that. You're spot on and wonderful with a definitive answer on any question that the rules address clearly. It's really pretty awesome, and I personally appreciate it.

On subjects that are more poorly worded, on the other hand...well, let's just say that a definitive answer to an ambiguous question isn't always a good thing.

For the record, and for what little it's worth-I agree with Gwar on this. I think the rules means that 2 Rune Priests can't have the same set of psychic powers. But I don't dismiss the idea that "psychic powers" might refer to 2 Rune Priests having the same psychic power (1 JotWW on Rune Priest A plus 1 JotWW on Rune Priest B = "psychic powers"). It'll probably get FAQ'ed, but in the meantime it's going to be worth discussing the issue with your opponents.

**Gwar!**

Ordznik wrote:Has anyone ever told you how awesome you are

Yes, they have, but I can always have more people saying it

**Kaaihn**

Phryxis wrote:So, there's been a month long freak out about the Jaws of the World Wolf. Or Lash of the World Wolf. Whatever it's called...

Now that I have the Codex, I observe p 81:

"[No] two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same psychic powers, or wargear combination."

What does this actually mean?

The saga piece seems straightforward.

The psychic powers and wargear is less so.

Can only one model in the whole army have JotWW? Or can four, so long as they have different second powers? Or can four, even if they have the same powers, so long as they have different wargear?

My read is that they have to take a different combination of psychic powers.

AND they have to take a different combination of wargear.

Thoughts?

My opinion on the wording of the codex is that it says no to power duplication. Note that is different than power combination duplication. One instance of JOWW in the army, one instance of Living Lightning, etc. Like I said, that's my opinion on the RAW, but it is a sentence with enough ambiguouty in it that there is no correct answer to your question, only opinions.

My leaning towards RAI is that they meant to restrict power combinations. I'm really hoping the SW FAQ happens sooner rather than later since this issue directly affects army builds. Until GW releases the FAQ you are just going to have to work it out with your opponents.

Since you asked for thoughts on it, I'll include this one: Allow power combo duplications, but if your opponent is doing something that makes the game unfun, tell him so. You don't have to play armies that are built on exploiting a strange mechanic if you don't want to. I don't think the guy taking four Rune Priests with them embarked each in their own Land Raider is going to be very popular of an opponent. Exploitative build nonsense is usually pretty self regulating, at least in my experience.

**Gwar!**

Kaaihn wrote:I don't think the guy taking four Rune Priests with them embarked each in their own Land Raider is going to be very popular of an opponent. Exploitative build nonsense is usually pretty self regulating, at least in my experience.

Yes, because paying 1,400 points + Different Equipment points + the points for a Wolf Guard Pack to take the 4th Land Raider for an effect that only affects a few models in a few armies, with a very limited range, and against Dæmons does a just a shade less than sweet f**k all, is sooooooooo overpowered!

**Kaaihn**

Gwar! wrote:
Kaaihn wrote:I don't think the guy taking four Rune Priests with them embarked each in their own Land Raider is going to be very popular of an opponent. Exploitative build nonsense is usually pretty self regulating, at least in my experience.
Yes, because paying 1,400 points + Different Equipment points + the points for a Wolf Guard Pack to take the 4th Land Raider for an effect that only affects a few models in a few armies, with a very limited range, and against Dæmons does a just a shade less than sweet f**k all, is sooooooooo overpowered!

I didn't say it was overpowered.

What it is, is annoying. People that bring ridiculous lists such as my example are generally not the most popular people, in my experience.

You missed the point completely. It's not any one list, it's the people that will put together annoying garbage that will self regulate out. So no need to arbitrarily punish everyone because of a perceived balance issue. Give your opponent the benefit of the doubt and then avoid him if he abuses it.

**Gwar!**

And my point is that if you get annoyed at a totally gimped ineffective list, you have bigger problems.

**Kaaihn**

Gwar! wrote:And my point is that if you get annoyed at a totally gimped ineffective list, you have bigger problems.

Your staring at a tree. I'm talking about a forest. Let it go man.

**Razerous**

A:To represent this, no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same Psychic powers or Wargear combination.

B:To represent this, no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same Psychic power or Wargear combination.

So in A we have a meaning that implies that no two characters may bear the same psychic powers. This means that between any two wolfpriests, none of their powers may be the same*. So wolfpriest A may have powers X & Y whilst wolfpriest B may not have powers X & Y.

In B: we have the meaning that implies that no two characters may bear the same Psychic power combination. This is as Gwar suggests.

Out of the two option, which is written in the codex?

I think it is extremely clear-cut if you take time to read whats written & then try to phrase how you would like/think it to be written - If its whats already in the codex then you are of the right opinion. If, like me, you thought it could mean one way (B:) and went to phrase it in the proper way & found it is not how it is written in the codex then you are of the wrong opinion.

Edit: * This means what, due to RAW (Rules as written and it makes sense because these powers are OMG wtf powerful) if you follow the A: line of reasoning (How it is exactly written in the codex) then you will be able to take Njarl Stormcaller but this choice will prevent you from taking any other rune priest.

**Xenith**

Razerous wrote:A:To represent this, no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same Psychic powers or Wargear combination.

B:To represent this, no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same Psychic power or Wargear combination.

So in A we have a meaning that implies that no two characters may bear the same psychic powers. This means that between any two wolfpriests, none of their powers may be the same*. So wolfpriest A may have powers X & Y whilst wolfpriest B may not have powers X & Y.

In B: we have the meaning that implies that no two characters may bear the same Psychic power combination. This is as Gwar suggests.

Out of the two option, which is written in the codex?

I think it is extremely clear-cut if you take time to read whats written & then try to phrase how you would like/think it to be written - If its whats already in the codex then you are of the right opinion. If, like me, you thought it could mean one way (B:) and went to phrase it in the proper way & found it is not how it is written in the codex then you are of the wrong opinion.

Edit: * This means what, due to RAW (Rules as written and it makes sense because these powers are OMG wtf powerful) if you follow the A: line of reasoning (How it is exactly written in the codex) then you will be able to take Njarl Stormcaller but this choice will prevent you from taking any other rune priest.

But also, by the dame reasoning, Njal, having all powers, does not have the same powers as a priest that onlyhas two powers. See what I mean? one has mny powers, the other only has two.

or you could read it as "psychic powers...combination"

Njal has 5 powers. acombo of 5 isnt the same as a combo of 2

</Devils advocate>

**Razerous**

No, not in the slightest.

A: Is what is written in the codex.

Is Njal has all the psychic powers, then any other wolf priest would bear the same psychic power/powers. Thus it is disallowed (Please read my edit

).

Psychic powers, in this regard, have Nothing to do with the specific combination of powers. This only applies to wargear (and rightly so!).

**dietrich**

I think it's combo of powers, simply because otherwise it would seem that Njal could be the only rune priest in an army.

But, I think it's very unclear.

**Eidolon**

Thank god nobody good in my area plays space wolves. And if someone is dumb enough to build an army wolf of the wolf wolf they can enjoy getting owned by everything else. While an effective build, i cant see it doing a whole lot to something like say mechanized marines. Against nidzilla it would be deadly.

**Razerous**

Eidolon wrote:Thank god nobody good in my area plays space wolves. And if someone is dumb enough to build an army wolf of the wolf wolf they can enjoy getting owned by everything else. While an effective build, i cant see it doing a whole lot to something like say mechanized marines. Against nidzilla it would be deadly.

You cant really build an army of off Jaws of the world wolf; as while it is a powerful ability, it is only a singularly powerful ability. A good power to complement the weakness of JotWW is Lightning Storm, D6 str7 hits with unlimited range is ideal for rhino hunting; If you put your Slain marker close to their spawn then you'll be shooting off those shots @ BS5.

**Anpu42**

Here is the problem with the Jaws of the world wolf; and Rune Priest in genral

HQ#1: Njal

HQ#2: Rune Priest [Tempest Wrath, Jaws of the world wolf] May use 2 Powers in the same Turn one at the start and one in the shooting phase

HQ#3: Rune Priest [Storm Caller, Jaws of the world wolf] May use 2 Powers in the same Turn one at the start and one in the shooting phase

HQ#4: Rune Priest [Any other power, Jaws of the world wolf or any other power] May use 1 Power in the same Turn one in the shooting phase, one of two power and one other power other that the JOTWW

If any of them are in close combat 3 of them are limited to one power and the 4th gets to use none.

**Kaaihn**

Anpu42 wrote:Here is the problem with the Jaws of the world wolf; and Rune Priest in genral

HQ#1: Njal

HQ#2: Rune Priest [Tempest Wrath, Jaws of the world wolf] May use 2 Powers in the same Turn one at the start and one in the shooting phase

HQ#3: Rune Priest [Storm Caller, Jaws of the world wolf] May use 2 Powers in the same Turn one at the start and one in the shooting phase

HQ#4: Rune Priest [Any other power, Jaws of the world wolf or any other power] May use 1 Power in the same Turn one in the shooting phase, one of two power and one other power other that the JOTWW

If any of them are in close combat 3 of them are limited to one power and the 4th gets to use none.

I might be reading you wrong, but it sounds like you are thinking that there is a restriction on the same power being used by multiple priests in the same turn. That is not correct.

The restriction is on them possessing the same powers. The debate is whether that means they can't have the same powers, or power combinations.

If the restriction is just on combinations, making you able to take for example two priests both with jaws, one with lightning, one with thunderclap, both are free to cast jaws in the same turn.

**Anpu42**

Kaaihn wrote:
Anpu42 wrote:Here is the problem with the Jaws of the world wolf; and Rune Priest in genral

HQ#1: Njal

HQ#2: Rune Priest [Tempest Wrath, Jaws of the world wolf] May use 2 Powers in the same Turn one at the start and one in the shooting phase

HQ#3: Rune Priest [Storm Caller, Jaws of the world wolf] May use 2 Powers in the same Turn one at the start and one in the shooting phase

HQ#4: Rune Priest [Any other power, Jaws of the world wolf or any other power] May use 1 Power in the same Turn one in the shooting phase, one of two power and one other power other that the JOTWW

If any of them are in close combat 3 of them are limited to one power and the 4th gets to use none.

Actually what was trying to say is towards all of those who are worried about JOTWW, don’t worry about it.
This is a good way to bring the “Cheese & SPAM to the top”. The idea behind Space Puppies is to make each character different special, if they all have JOTWW plus Power B; there is nothing special about them.
They will become a boring Bullet Magnet and the Cheese & Spam player will stop it quick.

Now back on the subject
I personally don't think this question will be answered until the 1st FAQ come out.
Personally would go with the No two Rune Priest can have the same Powers Mix other words you cold only field 3 legally.

As far as Psychic Powers AND War gear Mix, that makes it too easy. I would just talk with the other players you play with, especially ones that have no opinion what they think. I would only ask them to look at that rule only and see how they interpret it. The circle argument come from persons that have made there interpretation and wants everyone to see their opinion.

I might be reading you wrong, but it sounds like you are thinking that there is a restriction on the same power being used by multiple priests in the same turn. That is not correct.

The restriction is on them possessing the same powers. The debate is whether that means they can't have the same powers, or power combinations.

If the restriction is just on combinations, making you able to take for example two priests both with jaws, one with lightning, one with thunderclap, both are free to cast jaws in the same turn.

**Drunkspleen**

Assuming you support the stance that it is talking about (psychic powers) and (wargear combination), which is to say the word combination does not apply to the psychic powers phrase there is still the issue of the fact it's a plural.

And you could either take it to mean, the plural refers to the two powers that a priest takes, or it refers to the possibility of the same power on multiple priests not actually being the same. Just as two models both with a power fist could not be said to have "the same weapon" since they are clearly two seperate powerfists, but two models both armed with powerfists could be considered to have "the same weapons".

The situation is less than clear and requires a clarification from GW or a TO for the time being.

**Razerous**

A:To represent this, no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same Psychic powers or Wargear combination.

Please explain to me how this (above) could mean you are allowed two wolf priest's with power A&B and A&C

Now, please explain to me how the below can mean anything but what you tried to to justify with the above statement, yet with it clearly being distinctly different?

B:To represent this, no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same Psychic power or Wargear combination.

**Orkeosaurus**

The problem is we can't tell if "powers" is plural with regards to a single Rune Priest, or only plural with regards to the two Rune Priests.

**Razerous**

Orkeosaurus wrote:The problem is we can't tell if "powers" is plural with regards to a single Rune Priest, or only plural with regards to the two Rune Priests.

Sorry what? I am lost.

**Orkeosaurus**

Hmm. Alright, the sentence is this:

To represent this, no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same Psychic powers or Wargear combination.

However, the sentence could mean this:

A Rune Priest may not have the same psychic power as another Rune Priest.

Or this:

A Rune Priest may not have the same psychic powers as another Rune Priest.

In the first one, it's a single power that cannot be duplicated. In the second, it refers to a set, or combination of powers, that can't be duplicated.

**augustus5**

Razerous wrote:A:To represent this, no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same Psychic powers or Wargear combination.

Please explain to me how this (above) could mean you are allowed two wolf priest's with power A&B and A&C

Now, please explain to me how the below can mean anything but what you tried to to justify with the above statement, yet with it clearly being distinctly different?

B:To represent this, no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same Psychic power or Wargear combination.

Big text doesn't always make one right.

**Razerous**

Orkeosaurus wrote:Hmm. Alright, the sentence is this:...

It's either gonna be 1) Any identical psychic powers or 2) Any identical groupings of psychic powers.

This is the jist of what I'm (and everything else is) getting at.

If you want 1) to be true, you can follow the codex's writings. If you want 2) to be true, you follow what I've written for B: which isnt what is written in the codex. Its quite simply RAW and is very obvious, easy to see and easy to change/be different if they intended the B: option to be the case.

augustus5 wrote:Big text doesn't always make one right.

No, it is just easy to pick up with the eye & clearly and quickly distinguish the two major points at a glance.

There are two option's there. One of them is what is simply written in the codex. One of them is what would need to be written in the codex for people to take the A&B + A&C combo with psychic powers.

**Drunkspleen**

Razerous wrote:
Orkeosaurus wrote:Hmm. Alright, the sentence is this:...

It's either gonna be 1) Any identical psychic powers or 2) Any identical groupings of psychic powers.

This is the jist of what I'm (and everything else is) getting at.

If you want 1) to be true, you can follow the codex's writings. If you want 2) to be true, you follow what I've written for B: which isnt what is written in the codex. Its quite simply RAW and is very obvious, easy to see and easy to change/be different if they intended the B: option to be the case.

The issue is the plural can be read two ways, If each priest could only select a single power you would absolutely be correct, and it is what I believe the rule says anyway, however, because each rune priest selects 2 powers, each rune priest can be said to have "powers"(plural) before a second priest is even brought into the equation, thus "Priest A" has "Powers X" which includes "power 1" and "power 2", "Priest B" has "Powers Y" which includes "power 1" and "power 3". Even though both priests have power 1, they each can be said to have different "powers" because each one's series of selected "power" is different.

You don't need combination to apply to Psychic powers (which I think according to english it does not) to be able to argue that the use of multiple suggests it is the collection of powers and not just a single power choice which matters.

**Razerous**

Powers 1 and powers 1 dont somhow form a new term Powers X. Just doesnt work in the slightest.

The most stright-forward way is usually the best way to go by things. All I can say is that its more complicated if you start including new terms compared to simply applying the ruling to each power as this also addresses what happens when you take Njal. He has every power so another priest may not be taken.