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Are Chaos Lords even worth it? Im in no way an inexperienced player but i feel as tho i have neglected my old Chaos Lords since 3red edition! i feel like they aren't as usefull as a nurgle warptime prince or a tooled out sorc. i know they can't have psyker powered but i just don't know how to tool them out oor make them decent in this edition... any advice? any powerful powersets for the chaos lord? i really want the plastic kit but idk what to do!

Chaos Lords do tend to get overshadowed by Daemon Princes in this edition. Pretty much the only thing they have going for them are Daemon Weapons, which are a little risky, but fun and can provide staggering amounts of close-combat attacks (especially the Khorne one). I also like the Tzeentch one, as d6 S4 AP3 shots are pretty cool, especially when paired with a TSons unit to beef it up in close combat.

Overall, they're not the best choice, but they're not useless either. The Terminator Lord box set is also awesome.

Expensive, crappy inv compared to loyalist.
The only thing that makes them unique is the daemon weapon....which can hurt you and 'force' you to take marks...making them more expsensive if you want a different effect.

The only thing going for them in independant character status.../shrug.

DP's are just so good for points, they overshadow the other choices...in addition, the lack of useful options is frightening. Bad GW BAD.

If you are a fan of the lords, a Nurgle daemon weap. can go pretty well. Rerolling wounds against most inf, and MC's and harder infantry 4+ wounds is pretty nice. I also throw a khorne lord with a powerfist in with a bezerker squad every now and then- 5 powerfist attacks+ the skull champs 4 str9 powerfist attacks on the charge is pretty nice coming out of a LR Although I've found its usefullness is best against a more melee based army like orks. He's not too dear, although for the same 125 you could grab a Lash sorc, which is tempting. Give then a go but really, DP's are just so good for the points

Chaos Lord on a bike or amongst a squad of termies riding land raider. Other than that better with a daemon prince

A cheapish Lord seems like he could be a great second in command to a DP if you don't want the two DP competitive route.

A cheap Lorf with the undivided daemon wep is good. The plague bringer and bliss giver are also very well. The lord is one of the few, if not only winged models you can put in a transport. twin lighting claws with wings out of a land raider or rhino works wonders.

Daemon princes are just better.
However, some of the Named Lord are pretty good. Mainly Kharn, who is always a good choice.

I like Khorne lords with bloodfeeers, just because they can kill so much. The only problem is that they get killed by a single powerfist so easily.

So they can be fun, but DP are better.

Theyre not cheap enough to be used as your single HQ choice. However, I find them pretty effective as a 2nd HQ. I run a dual lightning claws jump pack lord with my raptors. 140 points i believe. Its a very lethal unit that can completely avoid being shot at pretty easily.

The fact is, Daemon Princes die. I dont know the last time I played a decent player and didnt have the prince die. 3+ Save with T5 base is not that great. Impossible to hide behind things. Dont get me wrong, theyre the best overall choice, because dying means theyre attracting shots, but I dont feel that 2 DPs are the way to go.

They seem to be doing well for alot of people, but yes, they are not everyone's cup of tea.

As I see it:

Princes support the army.
IC's support a squad.

I like the prince's influence more than ICs...and I don't have to worry about bodyguards and delivery.

Night Lords wrote:I run a dual lightning claws jump pack lord with my raptors. 140 points i believe. Its a very lethal unit that can completely avoid being shot at pretty easily.

I want one of these BUT I agree with Sanctjud that this guy supports his raptors rather than the army. Put it another way, he's the hardpoint in that squad not the hardpoint of the army. A lord, especially your type of mobile build, can be even more lethal as a secondary HQ choice because your opponent will be more worried about the DP than him.

sexiest_hero wrote:A cheap Lord with the undivided daemon wep is good.

Yes, the S5 undivided demon weapon seems to be the best and cheapest option available. A bloodfeeder has too high a chance to rebel, and the other demon weapons aren't really all that much better than the standard one for the cost of the Mark of Chaos.

Also, a Khorne Lord with Lightning Claws is just about as effective and much more consistent than a Bloodfeeder lord.

sexiest_hero wrote:
The lord is one of the few, if not only winged models you can put in a transport. twin lighting claws with wings out of a land raider or rhino works wonders.

Another interesting use of the lord, but also remember the sorcerer can have wings too.

I'm a fan of the Nurgle Lord with demon weapon, maybe with meltabombs or a combi-melta for flavor. Not the most points efficient dude around, but he is fun to use.

Any use for Typhus? He seems a fairly awesome primary HQ IC if an IC is what you're looking for.

Khorne Lords with a Bloodthirster get like 16 attacks!

Plus Termie armor... hehehe....

But yeah, the more "competitive" way to go is the good ol' Daemon Prince.

Manchu wrote:Any use for Typhus? He seems a fairly awesome primary HQ IC if an IC is what you're looking for.

I've been running Typhus as my HQ and I am pretty underwhelmed. He tends to die to powerfists really quickly, since as an IC he can be singled out.

Teleporting him in is risky - he gets one Wind of Chaos off (killing 1/2 his targets) but then he's lascannon/melta bait with only a 5+invulnerable and no Eternal Warrior. Charging out of a Land Raider is better, but he and his squad *has* to wipe out the target squad or else he eats powerfist. Maybe once I get 4 Terminators painted up I'll run him with them to have a better chance of wiping 10-man MEQ squads.

In the meantime either going to pick up a Nurgle DP and run him with wings/warptime, or use Abaddon - who is only 50pts more expensive than Typhus, gets Eternal Warrior and an S8 at I5.

Are you not running him in a squad of PM?

Generalizing it as the DP helping the overall army and Lord helping his squad is unfair.

The Daemon Prince shouldnt even get into combat. He is just a big target that you hope to roll his cover/invul saves well for. I actually think of him as a giant magnet pulling all the bullets his way.

The lord is more of a hidden threat. He can wipe out terminators himself (I love lightning claws), and if you play it smart, can even avoid powerfists with his squad. I would say against good players, my lord has done more damage than the prince.

However, like I said, the Prince is first pick because he does play the role of being shot at to allow the rhinos to move up the board.

my things is that aside from Huron or Kahrn I never use a lord of any kind... I almost always run two winged, warptime, MON DPs, don't always die but always tear units up on the oposing players side.

any other cheap ways one can support my army? maybe one MON DP and a good supplement? or better yet any good builds for the sorc?

Manchu wrote:Are you not running him in a squad of PM?

Yes, except when he teleports in of course. He's only las/melta bait when teleporting, so I've stopped deploying him that way. I usually run him with my "assault" PM squad: 7 PMs with a Flamer and a PP, champ with Fist. Usually in my Land Raider.

Typhus still dies to pfists though. With the reaction moves after assault, unless my opponent is stupid and put his Pfist on his front line then he can move it to within 2" of a model in contact with Typhus. (I have to put Typhus in base contact when charging or he doesn't even get to attack at all). Unless Typhus and friends wipe out the squad, then the Pfist tends to smack at Typhus; it will likely hit with one of two attacks, wound on a 2+ and then I only get a 5+ invulnerable. So Typhus gets instakilled in 50% of combat rounds that he and his PMs don't completely wipe out the opposing squad before I1 rolls around.

The PMs are pretty resilient in combat, but their I3 really hurts sometimes and they tend not to kill very much when fighting MEQs.

Abaddon has eternal warrior, and combined with his S8 I5 that seems worth the extra 50 pts despite losing one Wind of Chaos per game...

Sorcerer with wings and Warptime can be good fun. Give him MoT and get a nice invul. save and another power to play with, bt at that point he starts to get expensive.

But, as said above, he is best combiend with a unit to support him. in this case probably raptors

The think about lords is, even if you want them instead of a second DP, a sorcerer can do whatever thay can, but better.

A sorcerer with warptime is better than a lord with dual LCs.

A sorcerer with WoC is better than a lord with a bloodfeeder (which will wound you 1/3rd of the time btw).

Forceweapons better than blissgiver because they are free.

It costs less to put sorcerers into terminator armour.

Sorcerers get all the equipment options lord do, except demon weapons and combi-weapons outside of terminator armour, but they get access to all those psychic powers.

The only difference in statline is 1WS.

Lords just dont measure up.

Does a Termie Sorcerer still get a force weapon? I can't remember.

Praxiss wrote:Does a Termie Sorcerer still get a force weapon? I can't remember.

Sure does.

Regwon wrote:A sorcerer with warptime is better than a lord with dual LCs.

Khorne-marked double LC Lord w/jetpack for 150; Slaanesh-marked warptime Sorcerer w/jetpack also 150. Sorcerer's FW (re-rolling hits and wounds) and I6 outweighs 2 more attacks (re-rolling to wound) at WS6? I dunno but seems like a CC Sorcerer is not the best way to spend points.

Regwon wrote:The think about lords is, even if you want them instead of a second DP, a sorcerer can do whatever thay can, but better.

A sorcerer with warptime is better than a lord with dual LCs.

Disagree. I thought that was the case before, but Ive realized the difference in wounds is not all that great. Assuming T4 (T doesnt matter due to both rerolling wounds) when both hit on 3s:

Lord: 2.5
Sorceror: 3.3 --> 3.0 average after psychic test (91%)

Half a wound more.

Against WS5:

Lord: 2.5
Sorceror: 2.8 --> 2.5 average after psychic test

Equal in the long run. Except a lord cant hurt himself, and isnt going to fail you unexpectedly.

This is even moreso a problem when you have Eldar forcing you to roll 3D6, or SMs or SWs using hoods. These are probably the 3 most important matchups right now to ignore armour (both units are much less effective against orks, IG and nids), and having the odds cut in half (and hurting yourself) really takes a toll on the Sorceror.

The lord is also 15 points cheaper, meaning you can buy melta bombs and a combi-melta (even with claws) for the same price.

@Night Lords:

Night Lords wrote:Generalizing it as the DP helping the overall army and Lord helping his squad is unfair.

I actually think of him as a giant magnet pulling all the bullets his way.

The point of view is... by the Prince drawing fire, it's helping the rest of the list.
Simple.

______________

As to lords vs. sorc: Sorcs generally for a ranged fighter while Lords for combatty.

The Lords can help the army in several ways:

1. Personal Icon - Use this item to bring down Terminators, Lesser Daemons, and Obliterators.

2. Assault Power - Access to weapons like Lightening Claws, Powerfists, and Daemon Weapons gives a Lord assault power that doesn't rely on Warptime. Huron is the epitome and exception to this, being able to use a Heavy Flamer and then either Power Weapon or Powerfist, and have the option of using Warptime. More importantly Chaos Lords add this power to a unit, rather than relying on themselves like Daemon Princes.

How does this help the army? It gives you a hammer unit with which to beat on the enemy - the unit preserves the Lord from shooting with its transport and its bodies, and the Lord usually doubles the unit's hitting power. No longer are you relying on just the unit or just the Lord, but you have increased reliability for winning combats.

Something to note about Typhus is that you're better off casting Nurgle's Rot rather than Wind of Chaos, unless you're landing him near Space Marines in cover. With a 6" radius of effect, it can do hideous things to Orks, IG Infantry blobs, swarms of Termagants, and even Space Marines. And he can cast these without a psychic test, and Nurgle's Rot even when in combat, and affecting those in combat.

Yeah, your opponent can inflict Instant Death on him. If your opponent can inflict that Instant Death, you're using him wrong! But he's another in-between character like Huron - use him like a Chaos Sorcerer and use Huron like a Chaos Lord: pile the Lord directly into combat to beat on rank and file and hold the Sorcerer back to burn the range and file from range and assassinate enemy characters.

Nurglitch wrote:The Lords can help the army in several ways:

1. Personal Icon - Use this item to bring down Terminators, Lesser Daemons, and Obliterators.

Meh, if you're running the Lord in a squad with an Icon this is pretty superfluous. If you're running the Lord without a squad he's melta-bait. This would only be worth it in a squad that doesn't have an Icon of their own.

Something to note about Typhus is that you're better off casting Nurgle's Rot rather than Wind of Chaos, unless you're landing him near Space Marines in cover. With a 6" radius of effect, it can do hideous things to Orks, IG Infantry blobs, swarms of Termagants, and even Space Marines. And he can cast these without a psychic test, and Nurgle's Rot even when in combat, and affecting those in combat.

Nurgle's Rot is fine if he's in combat (and has survived one round of powerfisting). But it's pretty underwhelming against MEQs unless you've got a huge clump around him. Against MEQs I'd much rather use Wind to be able to ignore the armor saves. It's true that against any opponent with a 5+ save or worse, the Rot rules.

Yeah, your opponent can inflict Instant Death on him. If your opponent can inflict that Instant Death, you're using him wrong!

I've played several games against loyalist and/or chaos marines where there is a Pfist in every squad. And the Pfist is held at the back of the squad, so I can't lock it up when I charge in. So my options are: a) charge Typhus in so he can use his manreaper, but expose him to the Pfist; or b) let Typhus bring up the rear, so he doesn't attack first round - hope the Pfist gets into BTB with a Plague Marine in the reaction move, and move Typhus around at the end of combat during the Pile-In move, to the other side of the enemy squad.

Actually b) doesn't sound too bad now that I write it out. I've always used him like a). Heh, will have to try that.

But he's another in-between character like Huron - use him like a Chaos Sorcerer and use Huron like a Chaos Lord: pile the Lord directly into combat to beat on rank and file and hold the Sorcerer back to burn the range and file from range and assassinate enemy characters.

So *don't* charge with him, but let him take the charge instead? It's true that he and the PMs have defensive grenades. However, unless I bury him deep in the PM squad (and possibly use a larger PM squad) Typhus will definitely get charged by the Pfist. Also if he's wrapped up in PMs, he can't use Wind.

Night Lords wrote:

Regwon wrote:The think about lords is, even if you want them instead of a second DP, a sorcerer can do whatever thay can, but better.

A sorcerer with warptime is better than a lord with dual LCs.

Disagree. I thought that was the case before, but Ive realized the difference in wounds is not all that great. Assuming T4 (T doesnt matter due to both rerolling wounds) when both hit on 3s:

Lord: 2.5
Sorceror: 3.3 --> 3.0 average after psychic test (91%)

Half a wound more.

Against WS5:

Lord: 2.5
Sorceror: 2.8 --> 2.5 average after psychic test

Equal in the long run. Except a lord cant hurt himself, and isnt going to fail you unexpectedly.

This is even moreso a problem when you have Eldar forcing you to roll 3D6, or SMs or SWs using hoods. These are probably the 3 most important matchups right now to ignore armour (both units are much less effective against orks, IG and nids), and having the odds cut in half (and hurting yourself) really takes a toll on the Sorceror.

The lord is also 15 points cheaper, meaning you can buy melta bombs and a combi-melta (even with claws) for the same price.

Your maths is off

A lord with dual LCs costs 120pts. A sorcerer with warptime costs 125pts.

Against a WS4, T4 opponent a Lord with dual LCs (not on charge and with no mark (4attacks)) will:

Hit 2.66 times
Wound 2 times with no armour save

Against the same opponent, a sorcerer with warptime will (including the chance of failing the psychic test):

Hit 3.48times
Wound 2.53 times with no armour save

That equates to an extra 25% kills over what the lord can achieve. For only 5pts extra.

Even against a WS5 opponent its worth the extra 5pts. If people are happy to take meltabombs on the offcance that their character will be in combat with a vehicle it is more than worth it to take a sorcerer that will cause more wounds (not to mention has a forceweapon for killing characters).

Strangelooper:

Actually no, having a spare Icon in a square is not only not superfluous, it's almost necessary. One of the problems with Icon-Bearers is that they can be picked out and killed. While depriving the squad of the Icon's Mark is bad, depriving the army of accurate Deep Strike attacks is worse.

Regarding Typhus, at nigh-minimum Typhus will have six attacks on 3+ to hit and re-rolls to wound in addition to the attacks from his squad. At best he will have ten such attacks. If you're attacking a squad where a Powerfist will survive to strike him back, you're either doing it wrong or being fabulously unlucky.

Because if Typhus is in a squad, and the squad assaults, he will have to charge and charge first. That will be after any shooting by the squad and his own shooting, and if he's within charge range then he can do damage with either Nurgle's Rot or the Wind of Chaos.

Part of what people seem to be ignoring here is how Chaos Lords synergize with their units. Typhus, for example, has Blight Grenades and is Fearless. Stick him in a unit of Berzerkers or Possessed, as well as Plague Marines, and go to town. Kharn and Possessed go together beautifully, particularly when he has a crack at murdering them as well as the enemy. Sorcerers with the Lash of Submission and Possessed makes for efficient shooting, as well as Fearless for the Sorcerer. Always stick a Chaos Lord with a Daemon Weapon in a shock-assault unit so that the damage is horrendous when he rolls a 1 and nigh overwhelming when he rolls 2-6.

Something to keep in mind about a Lord of Tzeentch is that they can get a Disc of Tzeentch to become Jump Infantry and +1A, and a Iv4+ against their Daemon Weapon misfiring (against Sv3+ targets he's actually more lethal than a Bloodfeeder). But stick him in a unit of Raptors, lengthening their reach and making them hit like a ton of bricks (also a cool Raptor conversion if they're all mounted on Discs).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regwon:

Your numbers don't account for the Sorcerer failing his psychic test or suffering from Perils of the Warp.