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My mother died of breast cancer when i was 10 so this subject is an interesting one to me. There seems to be a fair amount of debate still and i am curious, does anyone have a good argument against? I dont think i have heard one.

My mother was hanging out and looked like gak for about 12 months, if she had asked for some assistance to shuffle off the mortal coil, i think that it would be between her and my father, and possibly her other immediate family members, and thats it right? What has a random guy in a court got to do with anything?

So my question is, is there a good argument against allowing it?

GOD DOESNT WANT IT!!!

Suicide is your choice, but if you want to be put down, that's getting a lot of other people involved. Is it really right to ask someone to kill you?

I think one of the major fears is that it could become just a little 'too easy' for Euthanasia. Instead of treating dying patients (which in many cases are very costly to nurse and care for), hospitals may see euthanasia as a means of cost-control and start advising patients to approve.

And then there's the whole messy case where it's not CLEAR what the patient wants.

Well thanks, that second one is a kinda good one. I have finally heard one at least.

I support the 'right to die' - I would certainly want to be 'switched off' should I be in a persistent vegetative state. When my Dad died, they basically levelled with us and said 'we can keep trying, but it would take a miracle for him to survive - and he would be permanently brain-damaged if he did'. It was a fairly easy decision for us to say 'just make him comfortable please'. He was in massive pain - it would have been selfish of us to want to prolong it, IMO. Yeah, I support Euthanasia - those who want it, it should be their choice to have it. For those who have loved-ones in a persistent vegetative state, I would say TRULY put the other person first, and let them go.

Pretty much what EF said.

The law is a filter, not a wall.

True that, im sure if you really badly want it to happen, its gonna happen.

IMO if the person who is terminally ill is of sound mind or made a written request earlier in there life that was signed and witnessed (such as a DNR) then they should be allowed the choice, stopping someone because of your religous beliefs differ from theirs is wrong. as long as its not a 'she said she wanted to die so i killed her' situation i agree with it, all that should be needed is a lawyer to witness and file the document

Well. Pain is often a factor in those suicides. And patients often dont get good pain managment. if you get good pain managment and you could give back there will to live. Also with depression. see if they have clouds of depression. get rid of that depression with therapy and drugs and you could give back there will to live.

dogma wrote:Pretty much what EF said.

The law is a filter, not a wall.

Actually, in Aus, it is a wall. No Euthanasia whatsoever. (A few states did pass laws once saying it was okay, but the Federal goverment overrode them.)

If you are in a vegetative state, or have a condition where you have to be fed through a tube, the best you can ask for is that people stop feeding you. That leaves you to starve to death, but I wouldn't call that Euthanasia.

After seeing my family deal with my uncles coma, then death, and seeing my mom deal with her mother's slow deteration,
they have made it clear that if they enter a state like that, to pull the fething plug.

i have to honor their wishes, whether I want to or not.
I would expect the same from them.

If the subject is in constant pain, in a vegetative state or has some other horrible disability (quadraplegic, etc), then I think it's perfectly reasonable. There was a quadraplegic man here in Australia who was allowed to die recently after a long time in court processes, and I think it didn't get through fast enough.

I know, we studied the whole thing in Legal.

But I'm not sure if that's Euthanasia. You see, they weren't going to put him down or adminster anything to kill him, they were just going to stop treating him and let him starve to death.

But he died of some stomach infection...or something.

garret wrote:Well. Pain is often a factor in those suicides. And patients often dont get good pain managment. if you get good pain managment and you could give back there will to live. Also with depression. see if they have clouds of depression. get rid of that depression with therapy and drugs and you could give back there will to live.

there are points that no pain drug will have any effect. there are also cases were a terminal cancer patient can either not have treatment and live for 4 months more leading an almost normal life, or can get treatment, live for 8months but for those 8 months you live as a half person, with no life or joy, its not nice. i wouild rather my family remember me as a happy person than as a shell of myself who can't even remember my own family (if it ever came to that)

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Actually, in Aus, it is a wall. No Euthanasia whatsoever. (A few states did pass laws once saying it was okay, but the Federal goverment overrode them.)

Alright, then don't act in accordance with the law. The law is never a wall. It doesn't impinge on your freedom, it only institutes a set of likely consequences.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
If you are in a vegetative state, or have a condition where you have to be fed through a tube, the best you can ask for is that people stop feeding you. That leaves you to starve to death, but I wouldn't call that Euthanasia.

Neither would I. Though if you're in a vegetative state you can't really ask for anything. That's the basis for euthanasia bans. Well, that and squeamishness.

I guess another fear is that it will turn into something like 'assissted suicide'. Where people who are too squemish to DIY go to proffesionals.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I guess another fear is that it will turn into something like 'assissted suicide'. Where people who are too squemish to DIY go to proffesionals.

Or people who wanna die, but won't kill themselvesbecause it's against their religon, and feel God will understand if someone else kills them.

Myself, all I need is a gun. Make a fist, the bullet does the hitting for me.

ALso, sorry to offend anyone if I did with this comment.

I actually just saw a lecture about this by a guy on my college's local Research Channel the other day. He talked about how he was objectively against it (room for foul play regardless of the amount of legal forethought, moral implications) but subjectively he was for it because of the experiences he had with his aunt being sick for as long as she was. The arguments for that nobody likes to bring up like cost effectiveness are pretty strong. One of the hurdles to jump through will be if things like mental diseases qualify as well and why not. Apparently Oregon has a laws passed to allow this but some of the higher ups are threatening to revoke their licenses if they do it.

Only the old belong in asia.



edit: Horrible jokes aside, it's a tough topic. Coming out of a coma or stroke is no
small thing. I agree that making euthanasia restrictive means that the decision will
always carry import and weight and will never get carried out casually.

I don't know what I'd want. Probably whatever would be easiest on the family. If
the guilt of euthanasia would burden my wife too much, then by all means keep me
around. Just keep the mean orderlies and bottle of vaseline away from my bed unit.

It is one of those areas where it happens anyway and perhaps it is better to have it happen within a regulated legal framework which allows for patient choice and the best social outcomes (blah blah blah.)

Like abortion.

Just to be clear although they are similar euthanasia is not suicide.

The later being to kill oneself for whatever reason, the former being to deliberately kill someone else for their benefit. Also turning off life support ot DNR orders are not euthanasia either.

Drug induced coma plus starvation is not a good way to do in my book. I don't know if anyone else saw the story last week [?] of the European man that woke from a coma after 10+ years expeiancing it all whilst the Doctors were of the opinion that there was no brain activity. So starvation plus that sound like a very unpleasant torture to me.

This is a difficult subject for medical professionals as there is not [at present] any guidance of what constitutes a clear case for euthanasia other than the obvious line to be drawn between allowing the killing an otherwise healthy human being that wants to die [no benefit] and ending the life of someone who is desperately in pain. Not sure I would want to start ending life if I had trained to save it?

Personally I think that there should be a route where those that have physical clinical need can choose to ease thier suffering quickly but this should be very tightly controlled [no one say death council to the septics it will set them off again on the NHS - oh noes!]. Why can you put a dog or a horse out of its misery but we allow our loved ones to suffer?

Further, I never like it when we here of so-called mercy killings in the papers where a loved one is asked to help someone on their way. It always strikes me as putting that person in a grossly unfair position. Who wouldn't help a loved one, but then they have to live with the consequences, primarily I am thinking about the idea that you [for whatever reason] have taken the life of your loved one. Not nice, I hope that none of us are ever in that position.

notprop wrote:
Further, I never like it when we here of so-called mercy killings in the papers where a loved one is asked to help someone on their way. It always strikes me as putting that person in a grossly unfair position. Who wouldn't help a loved one, but then they have to live with the consequences, primarily I am thinking about the idea that you [for whatever reason] have taken the life of your loved one. Not nice, I hope that none of us are ever in that position.

Robots?

If you are afraid of living too long or becoming an invalid; don't worry about maintaining a healthy lifestyle, don't seek healthcare, engage in "risky" behaviors and prepare a "living will" to guide others of your wishes.

If you manage to grow old anyway, wander off into the wilderness with minimal supplies. Nature will take you back.

>Nurgle<

My grandfather was assisted in his passing, he was suffering a lot from surgery that removed his stomach and the complications that came with it. It was done by the doctor, not the family. Doctor's are allowed to do so around here, however strict regulations must be adhered to. No court or anything is involved, however there must be a second doctor around to witness that the injection is given (or the plug is pulled, or whatever).

utan wrote:If you are afraid of living too long or becoming an invalid; don't worry about maintaining a healthy lifestyle, don't seek healthcare, engage in "risky" behaviors and prepare a "living will" to guide others of your wishes.

You do know that there are people who engage in those lifestyles and do want to live right? Like that RAF chap who lived to 100+ years old and credited his longevity to whiskey, cigarettes, and women. It isn't as if everyone that lives a long time are only those who follow prescribed lifestyles, in fact the oldest seem to be the opposite.

The one thing centenarians have in common is that they "chose their parents wisely". Genetics has more to do with longetivity than lifestyle.
However, if you do it right, you can compensate for good genetics with unhealthy praxis. I have personally seen it executed flawlessly.
...and don't forget my final sentence in that post.


>Nurgle<

notprop wrote:Just to be clear although they are similar euthanasia is not suicide.

The later being to kill oneself for whatever reason, the former being to deliberately kill someone else for their benefit. Also turning off life support ot DNR orders are not euthanasia either.

Drug induced coma plus starvation is not a good way to do in my book. I don't know if anyone else saw the story last week [?] of the European man that woke from a coma after 10+ years expeiancing it all whilst the Doctors were of the opinion that there was no brain activity. So starvation plus that sound like a very unpleasant torture to me.

This is a difficult subject for medical professionals as there is not [at present] any guidance of what constitutes a clear case for euthanasia other than the obvious line to be drawn between allowing the killing an otherwise healthy human being that wants to die [no benefit] and ending the life of someone who is desperately in pain. Not sure I would want to start ending life if I had trained to save it?

Personally I think that there should be a route where those that have physical clinical need can choose to ease thier suffering quickly but this should be very tightly controlled [no one say death council to the septics it will set them off again on the NHS - oh noes!]. Why can you put a dog or a horse out of its misery but we allow our loved ones to suffer?

Further, I never like it when we here of so-called mercy killings in the papers where a loved one is asked to help someone on their way. It always strikes me as putting that person in a grossly unfair position. Who wouldn't help a loved one, but then they have to live with the consequences, primarily I am thinking about the idea that you [for whatever reason] have taken the life of your loved one. Not nice, I hope that none of us are ever in that position.

Euthanasia as practiced by those guys in Switzerland and wished for by many British people is a kind of assisted suicide for people whose lives are so miserable that they want to die but are physically incapable of killing themselves.

The European bloke has been expressing himself by "facilitated communication" which means someone held his hand and it typed out messages. This is a highly dubious technique.

http://www.badscience.net/2009/12/so-brillliantly-youve-presented-a-really-transgressive-case-through-the-mainstream-media/#more-1424

Euthanasia is of course a touchy subject. I think that it shouldn't be allowed for most cases at all. That would prevent abuse by most people. But then you have cases like that fiasco with Terry Schiavo in Florida, and the like. I say, if they can't maintain their life naturally (as in feed themselves, not need 8 lbs of drugs, breathe on their own, etc.) and they either want to end their natural life, or have made it clear in a living will or instruction, then just remove the artificial life maintainer. They will die of natural causes and that is that. And honestly, if they are in a vegetative state and they starve to death, can't breathe, etc., are they really going to notice? If you think so then dope them up on morphine and let them slip away in a fuzz.

That seems a good compromise.

To be honest, it is what doctors often do quietly in terminal cancer cases, using the doctrine of double effect as their defence.

Last time I talked about this topic on this forum, others uses said I was making gak up about the deaths of my mother and father-in-law, so feth this thread! I am not going to give trolls fuel in the form of my personal memories...

I will only reply in song:


Dethklok - Dethsupport


Pull the plug (x8)

I drove my truck into a moving van
It was all filed up with jet fuel and
I crashed right in and explosion
Smash through the window and ripped off my
Hands

Medical team drove up and found me
Bleeding in pieces picked up off the street
Drove me into a filthy hospital
Horror experiences financially

Woke up in pain in a gown in bed
Internal hemorrhaging inside my head
I really think that I should be dead
I saw the bill and then I cry, bled

To keep me alive it was costing me
National deficit times three
There is no way to avoid this fee
Please pull the plug and kill me

It's costing too much

Pull the plug

It's costing too much

Pull the plug (x16)

Aneurism
Botulism
Epilepsy
Narcolepsy
Pull the plug

Nearsighted
Breathe lighting
Cataracts
Heart attacks
Pull the plug

Hepatitis
Bronchitis
Appendicitis
Arthritis
Pull the plug

Encephalitis
Adenitus
Mastoiditus
Capsulitus

Pull the plug now (x4)

Pay you my life instead of life support
Harvest my plasma because it's worth more
Take all my blood and my organs
Sell them to buyers over in third worlds

Burn my cadaver for some energy
Charge the patients in their misery
Such a strong quarter for the industry
Pharmaceutical fething victory

Can't pay this price
Pull the plug
Pay with my life
Pull the plug
Say my farewell
Pull the plug
See you in Hell
I'll fething pull the plug