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Hey guys, I have a question for you about how to handle a marine list with eldar. I don't own a fire prism or fire dragons, but basically everything else and my list always includes a few things:

1. dire avengers

2. at least 4 EML's

3. Lots of scatter lasers

4. Banshees

5. Wraithlord

6. SCORPIONS!

I usually have a farseer or the avatar as well for the HQ. I figure that since everyone gets coversaves, there isn't much of a point to have lots of high strength, low AP weapons, especially since eldar versions are so expensive. With enough S6 shots or lower strength shots with good range and good BS I'll win by weight of dice. I often face orks, marines, and tyranids. Personally I don't like to field expensive units because I can't make saves for anything...

So typically I have infiltrating scorpions to blunt an attack or prevent someone from turning my line, a falcon/wraithlord behind infantry to snipe vehicles or foot slogging elites, guardians to hold objectives, avengers to shore up flanks or hold objectives in more dangerous territory, etc.

So I'm really, really sick of space marines. I've been playing them a lot lately from many different people and I find that people just always make their saves. Should I do something different when it comes to armour negating weapons without relying too much on small, fragile, expensive units?

Thanks for reading everyone!

Hmm, Fire Dragons and two Prisms are basic core units if you want to take on MEQ armies.

As you don't have them, the units listed generally do well vs. Marines.
How about an army list?

Duly noted! I actually have 4 that I'm tweaking so that's difficult to do, but I'll pull up the last 2 and post it.

So am I basically just going up against people who roll saves well? I've never had one of my lines turned, never been run off the board, and never been assaulted without being prepared. I just can't take them down...

Maybe its time to get some Fire Dragons in Serpents and two Fire Prisms...

If you're facing a librarian -- watchout!!

Don't use farseer within 24" of a librarian, or else they get psychic hood, and you have to re-roll psychic tests and you have to do it as d3 both times!

Captain Solon wrote:If you're facing a librarian -- watchout!!

Don't use farseer within 24" of a librarian, or else they get psychic hood, and you have to re-roll psychic tests and you have to do it as d3 both times!

The psychic hood only forces you and the SM player to roll D6 and compare the outcome...

Do you face footslogging marines, or mechanised?
If footslogging, get some dark reapers.

I just tend too slow 'em down then outrun their, heh, 24" in. threat zone. Vindicators, bolters, psychic hood, all go down the crapper when you outrun them, but thats just me, and if they shoot down my transports, game over.

Throw the list out that you play vs. MEQ. I'd like to see what you are playing.

It doesn't matter if hood is within 24". They now just have a chance to counter abilities.

Mech up and flank them. Bladestorm and Scatterlasers are your friend, i.e. shot volume.

That is exactly my philosophy... Volume over way too expensive, low volume shots that will probably have to get through a cover save anyways. I'd like to mech up, but I'm not comfortable enough to do it because this is my first army that actually has transports. I know you're right though, as speed is what Eldar do best. I use my speed to counter everything and to get dug in before anyone else can get there. But, off the top of my head, here's the list I used most recently:

farseer w/doom & fortune
avatar
9 scorpions w/exarch, claw, infiltrate
7 naked banshees
10 naked avengers in serpent w/scatterlasers
2 squads of 10 guardians w/warlock & embolden and EML
1 wraithlord w/eml, flamers, scatterlaser
3 war walkers, 1 w/2 EMLs, 1 w/2 scatters, 1 w/eml & shuriken cannon
1 falcon w/pulse laser and eml

Hmm, part of the problem may be that your list is a bit of a mix...and you really dont have much in the way of heavy anti armor. The avatar, and then the WL in cc but thats not going to be fun against av14.

If you war walkers are magnetized (or metal figs with exchangable weapons) try going with all of the same weapons for them. All scatter lasers to boost shots or all eml to give you a unit with heavier punch. What you have now makes the walkers a soso unit.

If you have more warwalkers, drop the falcon and add them instead. For that matter, if you have another WL add him instead of the falcon. The falcon isnt adding any synergy to your list at all it cant transport anything you have, and the falcon is really pretty bad if its only being taken as a tank.
Or do a quick conversion on the falcon to a prism. Pick up a bit of plastic tubing at a craft store and a jewel/ crystal from the jewelry making section. Cut a piece of tubing to slip over the pulse laser (glue the crystal onto the end), cut a second short piece to slip over the eml (glue a smaller second crystal on the end or just a tapered piece of green stuff) and instant prism.

You have bits of several types of eldar armies in your list, try to focus it down more into one or two areas more.


Sliggoth

Banshees really suffer if they're on foot. Eldar don't really have any cheap screening troops to give them any cover as they advance. Do you run them with an Exarch? With your doom / fortune seer and the banshees both in a wave serpent they should do well against most marines.

However only having two skimmers reduces the targets your opponents anti-tank fire has to shoot at. Not to mention you can't be as aggresive with them as they will quickly out pace the rest of your army and could be isolated.

I'd also recommend kitting the war walkers in a similar fashion if they're not already firmly glued in place. Scatter Lasers or shuricannons are good & cheap str6 firepower. I'm not a fan of EMLs much at all save to make a brightlance / EML wraithlord.

Are you planning on adding any models?

More warwalkers and Eldradwould be good additions.

Work around the Avatar/guardian/Warwalkers idea. The addition of Eldrad to Guide/Warwalkers, Fortune/Avatar, Guide/Warwalkers.

farseer w/doom & fortune
avatar
9 scorpions w/exarch, claw, infiltrate
7 naked banshees
10 naked avengers in serpent w/scatterlasers
2 squads of 10 guardians w/warlock & embolden and EML
1 wraithlord w/eml, flamers, scatterlaser
3 war walkers, 1 w/2 EMLs, 1 w/2 scatters, 1 w/eml & shuriken cannon
1 falcon w/pulse laser and eml

In fact, this list eventually has a hard time vs. Marines.
For instance, a Termie heavy force might easily deal with it.
Banshees will be shot down at first sight.
Infiltrating Scorpions will be targetted first and will die to rapid bolter fire.
War Walkers are the first taken on by long range fire.
WL and Falcon can be dealt with later in the game, similar for the Avatar.

Bwahaha, fear my marines Grunt! Actually, I think we are tied in our W/L ratio. Your Eldar still make my marines gak my pants with all your firepower though....

Wraithlords, Fire dragons, and Striking Scorpions.

These three units can put up a real fight against most marine lists. Striking Scorpions can put the hurt to tac marines, and Wraithlords are great spearhead units.

I personally like to use a lot of gaurdians, and with a bit of luck 3 or 4 EML's can thin out tac squads easily. I am not sure about the business of using Fire prisms to go anti-MEQ. Each to their own I guess, I only use prisms when I have a solid mobile list.

Basically, I haven't bought anything new from GW in almost two years. I'd like to add dragons and a prism, but I'm really not keen on buying much of anything just because of the way things are right now. I'm trying to work with what I have, but I like the idea of working around avatar/guardian/war walkers. I've basically done that by fortuning the avatar so basically no one shoots at it until it's a true threat, and using guardians (with a warlock that has embolden as a unit that will put out firepower at close range and hold objectives since the avatar makes them fearless.

I know everyone says to go mech, and for a while I this working for me: 1 serpent with 10 avengers, exarch, bladestorm, and one more serpent with a squad of banshees in it. They'd both go enough distance to get their cover save, and then the next turn they'd get out, shoot the countercharge unit, and have banshees charge whoever is the most elite unit. The problem would always be the second round of combat, or the third. Either I kill too much and get charged or get stuck and can't get out, and with so many bodies in the middle it'd be difficult to get support in. That, and it basically takes half the game to set that entire thing up, which isn't that hard to be ready for. Since I don't have 4 serpents I'm trying to go with a hard hitting, multi-faceted force.

Do you guys think I should go back to having a more mechanized force like I had before? I'm pretty sure that I will be dropping the falcon for a squad of reapers because I really, really do love them and have used them to great effect... I just wanted to see how effective the falcon could be for maneuvering and troubleshooting. It really has done well, but ultimately with 3 S8 weapons it fails most of the time due to poor shooting ability.

I really have enjoyed the ability to counter every threat and to never get outflanked (Treg can tell you all about that!) but when facing his marines of my friends necrons it seems to be very hard to get past AP3 without spending a LOT of points. It's definitely about volume, but I still haven't found that sweet spot yet.

Thanks everyone and I look forward to keeping this conversation going!

War walkers with Scatter Lasers = Win
Drop the guardians, if they are within 12 inches of you, game over man, if he is mech up he can sit 14 inches away, disembark on his turn 2 inches away from the transport, move 6 then assualt 6, dirty but effective. bladestorm and doom/Guide are ammazing, here mr marine player, make 27 armour saves. I would say maybe invest in some reapers, and mount banshees in transports. Only small thing that you could pick up that could help is reapers, they tend to either get left alone and crack open a lot of marines, or draw fire and allow your other units to do their job.

Alright, I have a few questions to ask you:

1. If you drop guardians, what troops will hold objectives in the backfield (which is 2/3's of all games you will play)?

2. When you're facing 10 combat squads in an objective game, doom/guide/bladestorm is always overkill, unless it's terminators or a character (neither of which can hold those objectives). What do you do if you're facing a massed marine army in that instance?

3. Walkers with scatters = win. Care to elaborate on that a bit?

4. I don't quite understand this statement: "if he is mech up he can sit 14 inches away, disembark on his turn 2 inches away from the transport, move 6 then assualt 6, dirty but effective." Could you work with that a bit? I'm not quite sure what you mean by it.

And, I don't know if you read my actual posts or not, but I do have reapers and have used them in the past. Obviously, there needs to be high ground because if not the enemy will just get the same 4+ cover save that I rely on. Recently I've just had a lot of games like that where there isn't much high terrain where I can actually take advantage of clear LOS. That's one of the reasons I haven't used them much, because if they can't get clear of cover saves, they're just overcosted, fragile, immobile rainbow laser people.

Thanks!

You definitely need wave serpents. They are expensive but very very difficult to take down (turbo + fortune = impossible). This is your #1. Dragons are nice, prisms are nice, but you need to get your guys off the ground and moving faster. Eldar are so annoying to play because they are so fast, have saves left and right, and will absolutely demolish a squad before you even get to swing. This cannot happen without serpents.

Also, if you need a unit to sit back and score, pathfinders are the answer. Theyre the best snipers in the game, and get a 2+ cover save. Nothing will touch them without getting into CC.

Im only just getting into the mech eldar, before that ive run infantry, and beaten marines just as easily as my newer almost mech force does.
If you dont like high S low shot weaponry try out a few things that are multi shot.

1) Warp spiders, incredibly fast, with a durable 3+ save, a bit expensive but 2 S6 shots each! and they can get to where they are needed.
2) If you taking a falcon try the Shuriken cannon, then upgrade the TL shuriken catapults to another cannon (with the pulse laser thats 8 shots)
3) rangers, or better yet, pathfinders, can infiltrate and scout, add +2 to cover saves and are AP1 on a 5+ to hit, rending on a 6+ to wound (and cause pinning)
4) Hawks, grenade packs are decent, but 2 S3 shots each (or 6 S3 pinning shots with Exarch)
5) Dire avengers... guided dire avengers... firing at a doomed enemy... with bladestorm (let me do some math...dont quote me on the maths either )

thats 27+5=32 shots (10 man squad with twin catapults on exarch), on average hitting... 28.2 times
against marines thats... 21.15 wounds
thats 7.05 dead power armoured marines on average, not to shabby.

and war walkers, but ive never used them as they are much £££

you can always use "counts as" models against friends until you find something you like then go and buy it.

EDIT: oh and considering i was running a non-mech eldar force for so long, mech lists arn't all that, play an infantry right and it works just as good if not better (dont feel forced into a full mech list just because someone else says it is good, try things out first)

Scatter lasers on war walkers is a good range outflanking force that shreds enemy units and light vehicles, tonnes of shots, and hi strength. Again wound saturation is the most effiecient way for eldar to work. COnvert the guardians into dire avengers. If your good with green stuff or have friends with bits or bits yourself, Eldar rangers upgraded to pathfinders. +2 to cover save, thats a 2+ in ruins, and the AP 1 possibilities with the sniper rifles is amazing.

Does anyone have any suggestions for tactics? If not, I suggest this thread gets moved to the Army Lists forum.

Well, a basic suggestion for tactics would be to pick one of the things that eldar do well and run with that....hard.

Your initial post seems to suggest that you take a mixed sort of army, playing it flexible to handle a variety of situations. Pitch that idea out and make your opponent deal with an eldar army shifted to one of the extremes.

In other words, build something that overstresses theri ability to handle the number of targets that you are throwing at them. Mechdar is one such build that works well, but there are others. Try a good old fashioned elfzilla perhaps. Avatar, three WLs and at least one unit of wraithguard. Farseer to fortune as needed. Make everything tough to wound and many armies just cant handle it.

Shooty eldar is another possibility, altho the eldar gunline tends to be a bit brittle. Nine warwalkers all armed with scatter lasers, guardian squads armed with scatters or emls, vypers with yet more shooty goodness.....it may not win against some builds but its certainly going to light up the sky.

Eldar can be very good specialist armies, dont get too locked into building a generalist army.


Sliggoth

Elfzilla is pretty awesome, I must admit.

Three Wraithlords is a bit much IMO though, I would rather get two and a squad of Sc. laser Warwalkers to outflank. I generally am not satisfied with Wraithguard, but when used in large numbers as a troops choice, they can be extremely effective at holding flags.

Getting Eldrad to make sure you have the powers to keep your army afloat is a bit cheezy, but it makes all the difference in the world. Fortune your Avatar, and guide the Wraithlords (use EML/B. lance combo for that extra anti-tank). Keeping Eldrad in a tank is a generally good idea, but you can put him into a squad of (20) Storm Guardians, and the fearless aura from the avatar will stop them from running. If you are facing a large amount of blasts though, you could lose the whole squad round one. Get a warlock for the squad, and give him enhance, so once the gaurdians get into CC, they will be able to stay in combat for a couple turns.

Alternatively, you could put Eldrad in a squad of Warlocks (with assorted gear), place them in a Wave serpent that will gain cover from the MC's in your list; and you should be able to easily get into assault range while simultaneously giving eldrad a very hardcore support unit. The cost of this combo is really quite an investment though. Somewhere in the region of 500-600 points if I recall correctly. The main advantage with warlocks, is that they are about the most flexible unit in the entire codex. Fighting tanks? Ownage. Fighting MC's or really tough CC units? Ownage. Small arms can begin to put holes through the squad very quickly though, so make sure your MC's are bearing down on, and locking up any nuisances like that.

Adding in a squad of Warwalkers with Sc. Lasers, outflanking with a large scorpion squad, is a great way to get pressure to the units that can cause you problems later in the game, by hiding in cover and dropping wounds on your main force. Using Gaurdians, and maybe even pathfinders is also a great way to compensate for the point density involved in a warlock heavy army.

Sliggoth wrote:Well, a basic suggestion for tactics would be to pick one of the things that eldar do well and run with that....hard.

Your initial post seems to suggest that you take a mixed sort of army, playing it flexible to handle a variety of situations. Pitch that idea out and make your opponent deal with an eldar army shifted to one of the extremes.

In other words, build something that overstresses theri ability to handle the number of targets that you are throwing at them. Mechdar is one such build that works well, but there are others. Try a good old fashioned elfzilla perhaps. Avatar, three WLs and at least one unit of wraithguard. Farseer to fortune as needed. Make everything tough to wound and many armies just cant handle it.

Shooty eldar is another possibility, altho the eldar gunline tends to be a bit brittle. Nine warwalkers all armed with scatter lasers, guardian squads armed with scatters or emls, vypers with yet more shooty goodness.....it may not win against some builds but its certainly going to light up the sky.

Eldar can be very good specialist armies, dont get too locked into building a generalist army.

QFT, the whole darned thing, especially

Pitch that idea out and make your opponent deal with an eldar army shifted to one of the extremes.

This same overload principle (applied above to unit selection) also applies in tactical use. Use those similar units in similar ways, and make your opponent deal with a whole class of behavior (evasion, long-range shooting, serious first-strike CC) that Eldar can do well at. Don't use a mech army partially evasively and partially confrontationally. Same thing goes for foot armies, even the very mixed semi-gunline with countercharge elements that you posted earlier. The problem there is your mixed-band shooting (lots of S6, but mixed with lots of EMLs and no anti-tank) and large investment in countercharge units. Minimizing the CC slightly (pick one countercharge unit, probably the Scorpions due to their saves, and chuck the other) and maximizing the shooting (like aligning your WW with all the same weapon and going for EML/BL on the WLs) is your best bet. And do go with Eldrad.

You might check out Blackmoor's tourney-winning mixed foot army lists: he's one of the few folks that I've heard of having a good record with a force like the one you post here.

Another thing i know is my mom uses a lot of support batteries and swooping hawks to run decoy from my orks and using there deep strike grenade packs to lay extra power

You guys have given me a lot to think about, and I appreciate all the advice a whole lot. Here's my problem with most of it: I'm not willing to spend much money on this hobby, as I am tending to like GW rules and culture less and less as the years go on.

I'm definitely not going to spend over $150 on wraithguard, I'm not really keen on spending more money on serpents, and I'm not keen on support batteries & even more aspect warriors. While every single suggestion I've heard has been good, I'm working with what I have.

Looking at the models I have, here's a list that uses the models I have but have never tried before. See what you think:

Keep at least 1 guardian squad with EML

Put 10 scorpions in a serpent (of which I have 2)

Put 10 banshees in another serpent w/an autarch

Use the war walkers with scorpions and a unit of pathfinders (of which I have at least 12) to outflank and take advantage of the +1 reserves.

Switch out Wraithlord for a full unit of reapers (of which I have 5)

Keep the avengers on foot

Make room for a unit of harlequins in the falcon

Here's the idea tactics-wise:

Pathfinders, walkers, and scorpions threaten flanks like my genestealer shock list

The unit of guardians sit at home objective or as a screen in KP games

Banshees in serpent and harlequins in falcon shoot with EML's at light armour. The falcon and serpent with the 2 best CC units turbo boost and set up for a big charge (which I've done before using dire avenger/banshee combo in serpents).

Scorpions charge backfield units or sandwich other units in the middle, pathfinders give juicy targets with aforementioned 2+ save, walkers hit rear armour or shred infantry units.

Reapers put pressure on as they do well.

With transports holding dangerous CC units priority will have to be taken between them and the dangerous shooters.

And, with the threat of 40+ S4 attacks from the scorpions, it wouldn't be too smart to hug the edge. And the walkers no one could really do anything about... 48" on a board edge make no one safe, so they'll get at least 1 good round of shooting in.


I figure against 3+ saves I'd have a bit of anti power armour ability with the banshees, reapers, and harlequins, and if I do go up against hordes I can just not outflank the walkers.

The question with this would be, would I want to take an avatar or farseer? Those are the only HQ models I own.

If anyone has ever actually used anything like this, let me know!

tau_etheral wrote:Another thing i know is my mom uses a lot of support batteries and swooping hawks to run decoy from my orks and using there deep strike grenade packs to lay extra power

Hey, your mom must be awesome.

Or not, considering she uses Support Batteries and Swooping Hawks.