Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi guys, I have two questions.

First one is pretty straight forward.

Can Eldrad or any other Farseer be in a Falcon, Cast Fortune on the falcon then have the falcon go flat out? This would mean the Falcon he is in gets two 4+ saves against shooting. I cant see any rule preventing it, just thought I would check and see if anyone new something I didn’t.

Second one is more of a can of worms.

I have read the previous RAW forum threads regarding Eldard and the debate about using two shooting psychic powers with Staff of Ulthamar. Than I went and reread by 5th ed rulebook (yes I am shocked too).

Eldrad’s Staff of Ulthamar power in the Eldar codex specifically states he can use a third psychic power in a turn even if he has already used it. Arhriman has the same power but better because he can do it in hth with the following clarification of the power:

“It even allows him to use several powers that count as firing a weapon in the same shooting phase.”

Note that grammatically this is not an extra ability just a clarification of the ability of making three physic tests a turn as ‘it’ is a pronoun for the ability in the previous sentence.

I guess the argument boils down to this:

A model as on p. 50 of the 40k rulebook can “only use one psychic shooting attack (as models can only fire one ranged weapon a turn).” Eldrad using either two mind wars or two Eldritch storms does not contradict this rule as he still only uses one psychic shooting attack per turn, he is just making his one psychic shooting attack twice.

Rapid fire, heavy & assault 2+ as well as a models attack value in hth are all opportunities to use one weapon more than once. Conversely the Monstrous creature ability allows a model to fire two weapons once per shooting phase breaking the other restriction of only firing one weapon a turn.

I understand there is a restriction on only firing one weapon a turn but fail to see how Eldrad breaches this by doing either two mind wars or two eldritch storms a turn using his Staff of Ulthamar ability. I understand that this is why a normal Eldar Farseer or Eldrad could not do Eldritich storm and Mind war in the same turn as even though they can cast two abilities they do not have the ability to make two different psychic shooting attacks in the same turn.

As I understand there is a multiple interpretations of how this works (like deathrollers) I will be asking each TO for a ruling on this before I play. However I do appreciate everyones comments and am attempting to come across an argument that contradicts my position.

Thanks.

Dorneymort wrote: I cant see any rule preventing it, just thought I would check and see if anyone new something I didn’t.

Page 24, Models with more than 1 save:
"In these cases, the model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save."

For the second, what Ahriman does has No effect on what Elrad does. They are different models, with different rules in different codexes.
Nothing allows Elrad to use more than one Psycic shooting attack a turn, so he cannot.

Hello Gwar thankyou for the reply.

-For question 1: the model is only getting one saving throw fortune just allows a reroll. My question was merely can I cast Fortune on an obscured tank to reroll the save?

-As for question 2: I agree that nothing allows Eldard to use more than one Psycic shooting attack a turn.

His his Staff of Ulthamar ability allows him to shoot the same physic power twice which RAW allows for.

The examples I have provided for such a scenario are Ahriman, rapid fire weapon and CCW.

Thankyou.

Dorneymort wrote:-For question 1: the model is only getting one saving throw fortune just allows a reroll. My question was merely can I cast Fortune on an obscured tank to reroll the save?

THis is why I need Coffee Yes, Fortune will allow the cover save to be re-rolled.

-As for question 2: I agree that nothing allows Eldard to use more than one Psycic shooting attack a turn.

His his Staff of Ulthamar ability allows him to shoot the same physic power twice which RAW allows for.

No, It doesn't.
There are 2 rules in play here, "You may not use more than 1 pychic shooting attack a turn" and "You may use a 3rd power, which can be one you have used already".

The restriction on No 2nd Psychic Shooting powers is more specific that "You can use another power", so Elrad cannot use 2 psycic shooting attacks, even if they are the same ones. Using 2 Psychic shooting attacks is NOT the same as using an Assault 2 weapon. It would be the same as using an Assault 1 weapon twice, which is not permitted.

Gwar,

Np about about question 1 mate, I assumed it was something like that .

As for question 2,

Eldrad is not using two psychic attacks he is using one.

Under RAW p. 50 "only use one psychic shooting attack".

Eldrad is restricted by the rule on p. 50 to only using one psychic shooting attack, it does not however limit the amount of times he can use the power (that limit is found in the Eldar codex).






Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to clarify as I believe this is the problem with your argument. In the sentence:

p. 50 "only use one psychic shooting attack".

'Use' is the verb & the 'psychic shooting attack' is the noun.

In order to 'use' something you must do something with it.

Eldrad uses his one psychic shooting attack to shoot something. The verb or action is not restricted by the rule just the thing to do it with.

Thanks.

Errm, the BRB limits it to one use. You can use one power. Using it a second time means you used a second power. Just because it was the same power as the first, does not change the fact that you used a second power. By your logic, models may fire their assault 1 weapons as many times as they want, because they are only using one weapon.

The only problem I have with trying to say you aren't attacking twice, is that you have to completely resolve the first psychic attack before you can start the second one. So you have done 1 complete "psychic shooting attack", and then try to start another one. Your comparisons of assault weapons and aren't appropriate as they have to target the same unit and is 1 attack that resolves all at once. The 2 psychic attacks can target 2 units, resolve seperately which allows you to avoid wasting overkill, clearing LoS and causing 2 moral checks... not even close to the same as shooting a storm bolter.

I take to long typing! ninja gwar! /shakes fist

No because a model with an assault one weapon is restricted to firing in once. Another situation of verb and noun. A assault one weapon is a noun the action of firing is the verb. 'May shoot once' the verb is restricted.

It is Eldrad's ability that allows him to use the same power twice.

Talking RAW.

The rule on p. 50 restricts using more than one psychic shooting power.

The rule does not restrict making more than one psychic shooting attack with a single power.

Eldrad has the ability to use 3 psychic powers or use one psychic power once and another one twice.

If he uses Mind war twice and Doom once he has used two psychic powers three times.

One is a psychic shooting power the other is not.

Eldrad has only used one psychic shooting power so the action is not contradicted by p.50.

Gwar you are confusing the transitive verb ‘using‘ with the collective noun of “more than one psychic power‘.

Again I will emphasis we are talking RAW.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lol found it

Eversor assassin fast shot (p 28.):

'The Evesor's heightened metabolism allows it to act with incredible speed. The Eversor never counts as moving when firing its executioner pistol (so it may always fire twice).'

I don't see a difference between the two rules.

are you quoting the clarification phrase? It is being tooken out of context. They are clarifying that the weapon is assault 2 from a time that pistols worked like rapid fire... he does not get 2 attacks, he gets 1 attack with 2 shots...

The actual 'rule' of heightened metabolism is "The Eversor never counts as moving when firing its executioner pistol" while the part in () is clarifying what that means (as the weapon, in 4th, and 3rd, fired 2 times at 12" if not moving, but only once if moved)

may as well quote relentless or whatever that rule is that let termies fire as if they don't move.

edited as apparently I have no self restraint.

Deminyn wrote:The only problem I have with trying to say you aren't attacking twice, is that you have to completely resolve the first psychic attack before you can start the second one. So you have done 1 complete "psychic shooting attack", and then try to start another one. Your comparisons of assault weapons and aren't appropriate as they have to target the same unit and is 1 attack that resolves all at once. The 2 psychic attacks can target 2 units, resolve seperately which allows you to avoid wasting overkill, clearing LoS and causing 2 moral checks... not even close to the same as shooting a storm bolter.

I take to long typing! ninja gwar! /shakes fist

Hi.

To clarify,

No you cant fire at a second unit because you would be breaking the targeting rules. The Eversor assassin example and Arhiman's psychic powers are both examples of a model that fires twice at the same unit. Arhiman's specify that he is limited by the shooting phase targeting restrictions so both shooting attacks are at the same unit.

To clarify once again I am saying he is making two psychic shooting powers.

More importantly I am saying RAW p.50 does not restrict such an action. This is restricted by the psychic power limitations in a particular codex.

p. 50 brb restricts the noun of 'more than one psychic shooting power' not the verb of using it.

Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deminyn wrote:are you quoting the clarification phrase? Besides brutally taking it out of context, it is NOT the same by a long shot. They are clarifying that the weapon is assault 2 from a time that pistols worked like rapid fire... he does not get 2 attacks, he gets 1 attack with 2 shots...

fail at quoting.

edit: may as well quote relentless or whatever that rule is that let termies fire as if they don't move... or the vehicle rule that let's them shoot more than 1 weapon...

I'm self moderating myself and not posting here anymore as this is not an intelligent RaW argument but someone trying to weasel like crazy.

No that is the rule in the codex as written. The sentence above it that I didn't quote is fluff. As far as I know the Daemonhunter book is still legal I dont believe it has changed wording (but could be wrong as I dont own it).

And also thanks mate for attacking my character rather than my argument just makes my position stronger

No, this is not RAW at all.

BRB, (17) wrote:
Normally troopers will only get to fire one shot each.

BRB, (50) wrote:
Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon

If you try to use the same shooting power twice, you are breaking the first rule without a specific exception to it. Valid exceptions could be Assault 2 or a Monstrous Creature with 2 guns. There is nothing like that for Eldrad.

I edited my last one to make it civil, sorry about feeding your resolve/argument/ego... but I honestly think you are picking and choosing bad quotes to argue your point. The eversor quote I tried to explain better above. but it is basically the 'relentless' rule.

I like the betters quotes but I'm worried he's misquoting the p17 thing. (yeah he is, that isn't a 'rule' just some intro explaining to shooting)

I'd like to know how using the same power twice is not performing 2 attacks?


edit :stupid wireless keyboard batteries dying.

If you have to bring in unrelated units to try an prove your argument, you have already lost imo.

Ah, here we go. The paragraph on pg 50 is pretty clear on this I think (please point out errors)

1. Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon.

2. Even if a pysker has a special rule allowing him to use more than one pyschic power per turn, he can use only one psychic shooting attack (as models can fire only one ranged weapon per turn).

3. The last section isn't really relevant as Eldrad can only fire 1 weapon a turn.

Therefore, my arguement is: Eldrad is firing his Mind War "gun" (just for simplicity's sake) which is a "Assault 1 weapon." What the staff let's him do is

Dorneymort wrote: -As for question 2: I agree that nothing allows Eldard to use more than one Psycic shooting attack a turn.

His his Staff of Ulthamar ability allows him to shoot the same physic power twice which RAW allows for.

So you want to shoot your Mind War "gun" twice. But I still see that as starting and resolving 2 separate attacks, just like shooting a meltagun twice and not the same as shooting a storm bolter once.

"No, this is not RAW at all."

"Normally troopers will only get to fire one shot each."

"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon"


Again he can only 'use' one ranged weapon but Eldrad's ability allows him to 'use' the weapon twice. Noun - Verb.

p 15 'Normally each model in a unit can only fire a single weapon' as well as the p 17 quote you have mentioned.

Again Eldrad is only firing one weapon he just has a special ability that allows him to do it twice. How am I not arguing RAW exactly?

I will reiterate that the Eldrad power is a clear exception to the rule of only firing a weapon once.




"If you have to bring in unrelated units to try an prove your argument, you have already lost imo."

Mate just used it as an example. You did not actually address my main point so instead you try to try to brush me off with semantics.

No problem no one is forcing you to post. I would just advised if you are going to enter a discussion that you might want to defend your argument with something a little more sophisticated than that. Oh well.

Dorneymort wrote:
Again Eldrad is only firing one weapon he just has a special ability that allows him to do it twice.

Really? I haven't seen any special rule saying he is allowed to fire more than one shot per turn.

Dorneymort wrote:

"If you have to bring in unrelated units to try an prove your argument, you have already lost imo."

Mate just used it as an example. You did not actually address my main point so instead you try to try to brush me off with semantics.

No problem no one is forcing you to post. I would just advised if you are going to enter a discussion that you might want to defend your argument with something a little more sophisticated than that. Oh well.

Have you read Gwar's posts before. Despite being quite... how to say nicely... gruff, he is pretty solid and very RaW. (pun intended)

and please address my last post, 'cause I'd hate to think you are just brushing me off as I don't agree with you.

Deminyn apology excepted mate. I was offended so I am glad you removed it.

I read the forum rules before I posted here and this is meant to be a forum about RAW interpretation. If the Evesor example no longer works thats fine but I thought it did. I have been playing 40k since 2nd and stopped for a couple of years. I am going to play eldar which I have never done so want the rules ironed out.

As far as I can see based on the noun & verb relationship in the rules I have outlined Eldrad can use two Mind wars or two storms a turn. The arguments that have been presented thus far do not contradict the position I have outlined.

I am happy to enter debate on the topic which is why I put the question up I just ask that people argue the point.

Thankyou.

from last time

So you want to shoot your Mind War "gun" twice. But I still see that as starting and resolving 2 separate attacks, just like shooting a meltagun twice and not the same as shooting a storm bolter once.

And the staff doesn't let him shoot twice in the shooting phase, just use a third power per turn. (so staff let's him use mind war x2, but he isn't allowed to fire twice in 1 shooting phase)

Deminyn wrote:

Dorneymort wrote:

"If you have to bring in unrelated units to try an prove your argument, you have already lost imo."

Mate just used it as an example. You did not actually address my main point so instead you try to try to brush me off with semantics.

No problem no one is forcing you to post. I would just advised if you are going to enter a discussion that you might want to defend your argument with something a little more sophisticated than that. Oh well.

Have you read Gwar's posts before. Despite being quite... how to say nicely... gruff, he is pretty solid and very RaW. (pun intended)

and please address my last post, 'cause I'd hate to think you are just brushing me off as I don't agree with you.

Wasn't brushing you off mate just responding to you all in order.

Yes I read Gwar's previous post on this and others. While I agree with most of his interpretations as I said previously the problem with his argument is he is confusing a transitive verb with a collective noun.

I believe I addressed your argument in my previous post but please clarify if i did not.

Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deminyn wrote:from last time

So you want to shoot your Mind War "gun" twice. But I still see that as starting and resolving 2 separate attacks, just like shooting a meltagun twice and not the same as shooting a storm bolter once.

And the staff doesn't let him shoot twice in the shooting phase, just use a third power per turn. (so staff let's him use mind war x2, but he isn't allowed to fire twice in 1 shooting phase)

Correct. To use an analogy I want to shoot my mind war 'gun' twice.

As a hypothetical example I will make special character "captain Jimmy" and replace Eldrads rule with gun instead of physic power.

Captain jimmy is armed with plasma pistol and melta gun.

Captain Jimmy fast shot special rule: Captain Jimmy may use a second shooting attack per turn, even one he has already used.

I dont see a difference between the two examples and why I originally used the eversor example. You guys all seem to. That is the heart of the argument.

Hope that make sense and why the rules examples thus far have not contradicted my position.

Thanks

My confusion is on a couple levels.

1. Correct me, but the staff let's him use a third power, which can be the same as a previous power right?

2. Then you are going with 'using the same power twice' = 'only using one pyschic shooting attack'

3. but where does he get the ability to 'use that attack' twice?

1 doesn't really matter for where I'm confused, but 2 is like saying "i'm not shooting a flamer and a melta, i'm shooting a melta gun twice" but then 3 is your opponent saying "but why are you allowed to shoot 2 times with that melta gun?"


edit: your last post wasn't up, so I guess I needed to see the "fast shot" rule. If that is the wording of Eldrad, I wouldn't argue. Can you quote that rule plese?

and the eversor, it really is just the Relentless rule. The context you have to consider it in is 4th ed. and the reading of the rule is actually contradictory in 5th ed. Seperate debate but I can do it here if you want.

thebetter1 wrote:

Dorneymort wrote:
Again Eldrad is only firing one weapon he just has a special ability that allows him to do it twice.

Really? I haven't seen any special rule saying he is allowed to fire more than one shot per turn.

I have not read a rule that restricts him from firing a weapon twice and I have a rule in my codex saying that he can use his doom or Eldritch storm twice. No rule is being contradicted that I am aware of. The closest I have scene is based on the rule that says "usually" a model only fires once.

If the best argument out there is that Eldrad chucking the same power twice is classed as a "usual" situation then I am happy with the place the argument has ended as my definition of usual is different from yours.

Codex rules do actually take priority over BRB rules in 5th ed. I again will politely point out that you guys are confusing nouns with verbs in your rules interpretation.

I have to bug out now as it is 5am in OZ and need to get some sleep.

Hopefully I have made my position clear. I am interested to hear all of your opinions on this matter but if it is simply reemphasis already established positions based on inductive interpretations of p. 7 and p. 50 then I will agree to disagree and point some of you in the direction of a basic grammar text (not that my spelling/grammar is perfect).

Feel free to flame me/comment for next 24 hours but wont be able to respond as will be offline.

Thanks.

Dorneymort wrote:I have not read a rule that restricts him from firing a weapon twice and I have a rule in my codex saying that he can use his doom or Eldritch storm twice

You cannot use one rule to negate another unless it specifically negates it. You have a restriction from the BRB. That restriction is not removed by the Staff.

This all comes down to Specific>General.

The rule in BRB:

Can't shoot more than one psychic shooting attack in one turn.

The Specific rule (in question):

Staff lets Eldrad use a 3rd power even if it is the same one as before.

Nothing in the Staff rule is specifically over ruling the general statement from the rulebook. The staff simply lets you use a 3rd psychic power that could be the same as a previous one. Yet you are still bound by the shooting rules.

The Rule of thumb is you *must* follow all rules without breaking any of them, unless *specifically* you are allowed to due to a special rule or whatever.

So with the staff you can cast fortune or Doom twice for instance, but you may only use one psychic shooting 'weapon' once.

The argument about the Staff being specific enough fails because it never *specifically* allows the use of a second psychic attack even if it is the same one.

The only way the staff would let you shoot a second shooting attack would be if the rule 'specifically' told you that you could make a second shooting attack with it. It doesn't' simply another psychic power which could be the same as a previous one (i.e. fortune), which just isn't enough to qualify for a rule 'breakage' as it is to generalized to break a specific rule on psychic shooting attacks.

Deminyn wrote:My confusion is on a couple levels.

1. Correct me, but the staff let's him use a third power, which can be the same as a previous power right?

2. Then you are going with 'using the same power twice' = 'only using one pyschic shooting attack'

3. but where does he get the ability to 'use that attack' twice?

1 doesn't really matter for where I'm confused, but 2 is like saying "i'm not shooting a flamer and a melta, i'm shooting a melta gun twice" but then 3 is your opponent saying "but why are you allowed to shoot 2 times with that melta gun?"


edit: your last post wasn't up, so I guess I needed to see the "fast shot" rule. If that is the wording of Eldrad, I wouldn't argue. Can you quote that rule plese?

and the eversor, it really is just the Relentless rule. The context you have to consider it in is 4th ed. and the reading of the rule is actually contradictory in 5th ed. Seperate debate but I can do it here if you want.

NP mate:

Eldrad's Staff of Ulthamar:

"If Eldrad is not in an assault it can allow Eldrad to use a third psychic power per turn, which may be a psychic power he has already used that turn."

Again my basic argument is p. 7 and 50 refer to the noun of gun and not the verb of firing. Nothing I have found or people have pointed out contradict Eldrad using Doom twice or Storm twice as the noun of using more than one gun is restricted not the verb of firing. the only thing stopping him is if you claim using the power is a 'usual' situation. I am happy to stop the argument if you guys are seriously trying to argue this situation is 'usual'

Hope that helps at least clarify my position and show I am not just trolling and have carefully considered my position. As I said now I have to sleep see you all in 24 hours .

Dorneymort wrote:

I have not read a rule that restricts him from firing a weapon twice and I have a rule in my codex saying that he can use his doom or Eldritch storm twice.

permissive/restrictive rules for part 1, part 2 applies to doom and eldritch storm, which isn't mind war.

permissive/restrictive... if Capt Jimmy (from above) didn't have fast shot, would you call him a cheater if he shot 2 times with his meltagun would you call him a cheater? hell yes.

so "I have not read a rule that restricts him from firing a weapon twice " isn't a valid argument.

" I have a rule in my codex saying that he can use his doom or Eldritch storm twice. " (sarcasm) good for you. what does that have to do with mind war (/sarcasm) The rules exist pretty much independent of each other in 40k (just ask Gwar why reserves from officers of the fleet don't stack and Autarchs do)

Dorneymort wrote:Hope that helps at least clarify my position and show I am not just trolling and have carefully considered my position. As I said now I have to sleep see you all in 24 hours .

It really didn't. nowhere in there does it say "I can shoot twice!"

I should really go to bed but the full quote on page 17 is:

"Normally troopers will only get to fire one shot each. However some creatures or weapons are capable of firing a weapon more than once, as we will explain in more detail later."

RAW: Rapid fire weapon, Assault 2+ & heavy 2+ are all examples of weapons being fired more than once.

They are not a weapon being fired once like you guys all seem to assume rather they are one weapon being fired 2+ times.

If you are reverting to sarcasm then we will just agree to disagree.

I am amused that in all these posts no one has addressed my noun/verb premise my argument relies on & instead gone down the easier road of semantic reasoning and Reductio ad absurdum.

So in summary.

You can only shoot one weapon unless you are a monstrous creature

How many times you shoot that weapon is dictated by the rules of that weapon.

P. 50 restricts the number of weapons you can use not not how many times you can shoot it.

Eldrads power is a specific example of a rule allowing you to fire a weapon more than once.

No problem if you guys don't get it and based on this response I probably wont even use at tournaments or asked TOs except to take the piss as I don't want to spend my weekend explaining how English grammar applies to deductive reasoning

Again thanks all for the responses .

I don't know what you are trying to say in that last sentence, but if you are going down the road of noun/verb and semantic blah blah then you are really pulling at straws on this one.

The rulebook and the codices were written by humble players like myself, and the rule in question is very clear in not allowing more than one shooting attack (psychic or otherwise) and the staff certainly doesn't let or tell the player otherwise.

padixon wrote:I don't know what you are trying to say in that last sentence, but if you are going down the road of noun/verb and semantic blah blah then you are really pulling at straws on this one.

The rulebook and the codices were written by humble players like myself, and the rule in question is very clear in not allowing more than one shooting attack (psychic or otherwise) and the staff certainly doesn't let or tell the player otherwise.

If you see the quote in my previous post the rulebook is very clear than you can shoot a weapon more than once (p. 17 brb)

No the noun verb thing is not an attack on gamers it is the distinction between mine and graws interpretation of p. 50.

I am happy to argue RAW but this is pretty clear cut.

The rulebook says you can fire a weapon more than once you just cant fire two different weapons unless you are a MC.

Pg 50 does not contradicts this.

If this were the case Doombolt could not use its Assault 3 because you can only fire a psycic power once.

Again please argue RAW guys I am not attacking anyone just pointing out the rules.

Thanks.

for the sake of the immortal emperor, dorneymort! im not a fan of gwar, but his logic in this is impeccable. Mindwar goes off in the shooting phase, and you can ONLY USE ONE PSYCHIC SHOOTING ATTACK. period. check the faq, in case that gw might have errata'd Eldrad, but for the most part, he cannot use mind war twice in a turn. end of story.

[Deleted by moderator.]