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A local church is hiring for a barista position in their coffee shop with the following 'personal' requirements: "Personal integrity in all areas of life. Regular attendance of a worship service with your family. By the time of their employment, a commitment to become a <insert church's name here> Church member within 6 months of hire."

As far as I've been able to find, even a church may not make this a job requirement unless the job specifically involves the religion (minister, pastor, etc.). Is this a legal requirement?

Absent some state code, there's nothing there they can't do. They are not discriminating on the basis of the EEOC usuals.

Absent some state code, there's nothing there they can't do. They are not discriminating on the basis of the EEOC usuals.

From http://labor-employment-law.lawyers.com/employment-discrimination/Religious-Discrimination-in-Employment.html

Prohibited Discriminatory Practices
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII) prohibits your employer from discriminating against you on the basis of religion in the any aspect of employment, including:

Hiring and firing
Compensation, assignment or classification of employees
Transfer, promotion, layoff or recall
Job advertisements
Recruitment, testing and job interviews
Use of the employer's facilities
Fringe benefit, retirement and disability plans
Other terms and conditions of employment
Prohibited discriminatory practices under Title VII also include:

Harassment
Retaliation against you for filing a charge of religious discrimination, participating in an investigation, or opposing a discriminatory practice
Making employment decisions that are based on stereotypes or assumptions about your abilities, traits or performance because of your religious beliefs
Forcing you to participate or not participate in a religious activity as a condition of employment
Denying you employment solely because of your marriage to or association with a person of a particular religion

<snip>

Bona Fide Occupational Requirement
Title VII does allow your employer to discriminate on the basis of religion only when religion is a bona fide occupational requirement. This occurs most often where the employer is a religious organization. For example, a church may require that all of its ministers belong to the same denomination of the church.

Is religion a bona fide requirement to make and serve coffee?

I could certainly argue it.
Why do you care?

I am applying for the position.... The thing is, I would do it to get the job. It says one has to become a member, it doesn't say one has to participate. I can read a good book anywhere... even in a church, I was just wondering how the non-discrimination laws applied to religious organisations and if would be able to reliably resort to legal action if I were terminated due to my beliefs.

I heard on the (US) radio that a woman had been found to have discriminated and had to remove her add for putting "must be reliable and well organised" in an employment agency.

Discriminated against what? The incompetent?

Its odd that the above isnt discriminating!

Religious institutions often have greater actual and defacto leeway. You're going to sue a church to sell coffee. really? Really? Are you that much of a major dill weed?


Dude Hooters has chick in tight shorts selling chicken wings. Do you think you have a chance?

Lordhat wrote:I am applying for the position.... The thing is, I would do it to get the job. It says one has to become a member, it doesn't say one has to participate. I can read a good book anywhere... even in a church, I was just wondering how the non-discrimination laws applied to religious organisations and if would be able to reliably resort to legal action if I were terminated due to my beliefs.

If you did that, you could expect to lose your job.


Also, re EEOC, worker's rights and the like... aren't businesses able to ignore those laws if they don't meet a certain thresh hold of employees?
If so, and this church is set up as it's own business, they might not HAVE to follow those.

Eric

This is why im an atheist. They call is "aggresive" atheism, but really its entirely defensive atheism.

I have to pay $2000 a year council tax. I would be exempt from paying it if i was a "religious worker" though. It says on the form i got with the massive bill last month?

Why? Why do the religious get special treatment? Why do i have to pay my national insurance to pay for priests on the NHS? Why dont they pay tax? Can i just stop paying tax?

I want to believe in magic and a wonderful place where my dog meets me when im dead, does that mean i can make up whatever rules i want about who i employ and when i want to pay my taxes?

They all take the piss outrageously, and then when we point it out we are "aggresive"

Anyway, ill shut my mouth and wait for this thread to be locked.

Wrong topic-ie better onanother thread, this is employment stuff. I wholeheartedly support the right of financial institutions and private clubs to have certain criteria, such as membership to work there.

Honestly i believe no one is going to do anything about it. if they do they will face anti-religious charge and it could get ugly.
but its there shop thay should be able to hire who thay wish.

Well i diagree Frazz. If i made a coffee shop and i said "i only want to hire people that are atheists like me" i guarantee i would get someone toppers with Jesus Juice trying to sue my ass!

The law clearly says you cant discriminate with regards to race or religion. But if you happen to be a religious institution THEN you can discriminate as much as you want?

I dont think thats fair.

Although, hey i have to say, like i always said, im not an anti religious zealot. I support gay rights and them being allowed to "marry", but i dont think they should ever be able to force their way into a church to have a wedding, i mean, thats just kicking the arse out of it to rub someones nose in it! So i would say, that meh.. somone who isnt religious just shouldnt even bother applying anyway!

But.. hey, its the principal of the matter isnt it? You cant just have one law for some and one for some others.

Frazzled wrote:Religious institutions often have greater actual and defacto leeway. You're going to sue a church to sell coffee. really? Really? Are you that much of a major dill weed?

The church doesn't sound particularly inviting, and if they felt that a member of their congregation was better suited to a particular job, perhaps they should hire directly from that group of people. If the church wants to set up vaguely discriminatory hiring policies, more power to Lordhat if they try to freaking fire him, for not following their absurd guidelines.

I know you could argue that making coffee in a church, is somehow more religious that working at starbucks. That doesn't make your argument a good one, surely.

Dude Hooters has chick in tight shorts selling chicken wings. Do you think you have a chance?

Let's compare these situations.

Hooters: Their business model, is built around the fact that they specifically have female waitresses. Slightly unfair, but no one wants to see a guy walking around in short shorts, and a tank top...

The Churches coffee shop: They sell coffee, that I would assume is not asserted as holy coffee.

Hooters is borderline discriminatory in general, and I do not doubt that the argument could be carried over to a church. This, again does not mean that it is in anyway going to be a good argument, within the Churches context.

They are also asking that you go to church service if you get the job, if I am not mistaken. Unless they would like to pay you for doing so, I think that it is clearly unfair, and discriminatory.

Lie to them, and sleep during service. Problem solved, if they want you to do more, point to your contract.

Given that you'll be an employee of the church and wearing their uniform it would make sense that one of the requirements would be to believe in what the church believes in. You're going to be an official representative of the church even if all you're being hired for is to ostensibly serve coffee.

mattyrm wrote:Well i diagree Frazz. If i made a coffee shop and i said "i only want to hire people that are atheists like me" i guarantee i would get someone toppers with Jesus Juice trying to sue my ass!

The law clearly says you cant discriminate with regards to race or religion. But if you happen to be a religious institution THEN you can discriminate as much as you want?

I dont think thats fair.

Although, hey i have to say, like i always said, im not an anti religious zealot. I support gay rights and them being allowed to "marry", but i dont think they should ever be able to force their way into a church to have a wedding, i mean, thats just kicking the arse out of it to rub someones nose in it! So i would say, that meh.. somone who isnt religious just shouldnt even bother applying anyway!

But.. hey, its the principal of the matter isnt it? You cant just have one law for some and one for some others.

There are exemptions for business use-again this US law. I don't know about Great "Don't feth we us we eat HAGGIS!" Britain.

Frazzled wrote:You're going to sue a church to sell coffee. really? Really? Are you that much of a major dill weed?

Yes, yes I am. My ability to sell coffee is not dependent upon my religious beliefs, and my willingness to conform to the requirements should be enough to maintain a position of employment. Note that I am not applying in the hopes that i get terminated; I really need any job, otherwise I would just dismiss this opportunity and continue looking elsewhere. This isn't a vendetta to "catch them out" it's a serious attempt to become gainfully employed, and remain so.

Wrexasaur wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Religious institutions often have greater actual and defacto leeway. You're going to sue a church to sell coffee. really? Really? Are you that much of a major dill weed?

The church doesn't sound particularly inviting, and if they felt that a member of their congregation was better suited to a particular job, perhaps they should hire directly from that group of people.

I believe thats what they are TRYING to do.

Its not discriminatory. Even if it was everything's discriminatory.
A better way would have been post it privately or make the requirement that they be a member of the church or family therein and plainly state the reason for the app-they are trying to keep all jobs local and want to make sure the sons and daughters have an employment opportunity first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyyr wrote:Given that you'll be an employee of the church and wearing their uniform it would make sense that one of the requirements would be to believe in what the church believes in. You're going to be an official representative of the church even if all you're being hired for is to ostensibly serve coffee.

Exactly.

Lordhat wrote:Yes, yes I am. My ability to sell coffee is not dependent upon my religious beliefs, and my willingness to conform to the requirements should be enough to maintain a position of employment. Note that I am not applying in the hopes that i get terminated; I really need any job, otherwise I would just dismiss this opportunity and continue looking elsewhere. This isn't a vendetta to "catch them out" it's a serious attempt to become gainfully employed, and remain so.

It sounds like a bad situation, unless you feel like entirely conforming to their set of beliefs, as Tyyr indicated. I also feel that line of logic is equally flimsy, as it assumes that someone making coffee, should be doing anything besides MAKING COFFEE.

Customer service, okay. Quoting the bible? What? Do you want coffee or not, man...

I would be very wary of working at that place, proceed cautiously, and try and get as much detailed information as possible about the job.

I believe thats what they are TRYING to do.

No... it isn't. They are trying to force someone to conform to their ideals, out of need or want of a job, they are not picking from their existing group.

Its not discriminatory. Even if it was everything's discriminatory.
A better way would have been post it privately or make the requirement that they be a member of the church or family therein and plainly state the reason for the app-they are trying to keep all jobs local and want to make sure the sons and daughters have an employment opportunity first.

I have no problem with them hiring privately, and it was what I suggested earlier. This clearly sounds like a public posting, and I feel that they are simply flexing their beliefs in an area where besides possibly being illegal (regardless of how strongly you personally may feel about this), it is also wrong and unfair.

HIRE FROM WITHIN THE EXISTING CONGREGATION. Problem solved.

People who would sue a church over this are just looking for a quick buck and suck in a most suckilishious way. This is why we need loser pays.

The easiest thing for the church to do is just immediately eliminate the joband the coffee bar itself, then go protest in front of the suckmaster's house day and night espousing their dirty bible thumping nonsense.

I know for a fact, that if I responded in kind to your comment, with a juxtaposition, putting the church framed within the same shoes (for possibly discriminatory practices), I would get in trouble and this thread might get locked.

So...

I will just say, suck suckity suckalisciousness, salivating suckatude, surely suckivity...

My point stands. People who would sue a church because they want to make macha lattes are:
1. lying
2. suck.

Others have said more than enough times that people who are religious are nutty less educated blah blah. I can say that people who are going to go after a church for a part time job either are nuts or want money. Nothing else.

I am not saying you suck, mattrym sucks or even malfred sucks (we all know Malfred sucks-sock thief!!!). I am impugning the motives of someone who would sue a church over such nonsense. If you want to say churches suck go ahead, its not like that hasn't been said a hundred times already on the OT.

I have no intention of doing so, regardless of my personal feelings about the subject. I avoid the religious threads in general, for that very reason.

I have no problem with either view here, aside the fact that I feel Lordhat has good reason to be concerned about being fired for his personal beliefs.

He would not be hired as a Minister/Preacher/All of the above, he would be hired to make coffee. There is a catch 22, free pass kind of situation going on here, where a church can openly discriminate in ways that average businesses cannot. If you want to equate religious belief, to that of "flair", at Applebees, go ahead mate.

This does not mean anyone within this context sucks.

Though... suckalicious... is an awesome word.

Wrexasaur wrote:I have no intention of doing so, regardless of my personal feelings about the subject. I avoid the religious threads in general, for that very reason.

I have no problem with either view here, aside the fact that I feel Lordhat has good reason to be concerned about being fired for his personal beliefs.

He would not be hired as a Minister/Preacher/All of the above, he would be hired to make coffee. There is a catch 22, free pass kind of situation going on here, where a church can openly discriminate in ways that average businesses cannot. If you want to equate religious belief, to that of "flair", at Applebees, go ahead mate.

This does not mean anyone within this context sucks.

Though... suckalicious... is an awesome word.

Suckilicious is indeed awesome.

I don't care if a person wants to work there. Fine. whatever good for them. I care that he's immediately jumped to "can I sue them?" Translation, can I scam some money off a church.

I don't think an atheist could serve me sufficiently holy coffee.

Concerning the hiring at Hooters though, and the short-shorts, it depends on whether the guy is hot.

Nurglitch wrote:I don't think an atheist could serve me sufficiently holy coffee.

i sell donuts myself. We have both holy and unholy. the unholy ones always sell out...

The next thing you know, there's going to be protests about the Catholic Church not hiring atheists to man the liquor and cookie counter.

mattyrm wrote:This is why im an atheist. They call is "aggresive" atheism, but really its entirely defensive atheism.

I have to pay $2000 a year council tax. I would be exempt from paying it if i was a "religious worker" though. It says on the form i got with the massive bill last month?

Why? Why do the religious get special treatment? Why do i have to pay my national insurance to pay for priests on the NHS? Why dont they pay tax? Can i just stop paying tax?

I want to believe in magic and a wonderful place where my dog meets me when im dead, does that mean i can make up whatever rules i want about who i employ and when i want to pay my taxes?

They all take the piss outrageously, and then when we point it out we are "aggresive"

Anyway, ill shut my mouth and wait for this thread to be locked.

A little OT but to add a little salt to your wounds you are also paying for a extremely rich royal leech.



I know in NY we are a "fire at will" state, so even if they have to consider you and hire you they can boot you the next day without any reasons given.

I don't really understand the problem here. You don't want to conform to their beliefs, but you want them to hire you and pay you their money that is made through donations alone. This isn't a business, this is a church. They have every right to hire and fire anyone they want because it is first and foremost a RELIGIOUS institution. If you have a problem with what they require, then don't apply for a job. If you want to apply for the job so you can sue them when they fire you for lying about your ability and willingness to be an active member of the church then you are indeed a dill weed as stated by Frazzled.

Yeah but im pretty Royalist being a former Royal Marine mate so im not that bothered. At least Wills and Harry try to do a bit, Harry was over in the sandbox, and if i was in his position id just go on the piss, so i think they arent total leeches. Not the immediate family anyway...