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Ok Dakka, what do you think are the most important tactics or strategies?

I understand that generalship matters the most, but in your experiences what works most often?

Is it speed, strength, toughness of your units? Is it being able to control your opponents movement? Having the most or best magic? The best shooting? "Dirty tricks"? Is a well-balanced army the best or should you strive to dominate certain phases or at least one phase and hold your own in the others?

Just looking for your expert opinions, Dakka.

Entirely movement.

Magic is fun and can be devistating but is very paper/sizzors/rock. On top of that one of the best spells in the game is unseen lurker which is just more movement anyhow.

Shooting if used in moderate proportions is usually for eliminating the flexibility in the opponents army or summed up, to minimise the opponents movement.

Combat will only benefit you if you have defeated your opponent in the use of movement!!

The game is won and lost in movement.

In summuary. If you want to be good at warhammer, plan and play your army with movement!!

You can be great at magic. You can be great at shooting. You can only be brilliant with movement.

mencius wrote:Entirely movement.

Magic is fun and can be devistating but is very paper/sizzors/rock. On top of that one of the best spells in the game is unseen lurker which is just more movement anyhow.

Shooting if used in moderate proportions is usually for eliminating the flexibility in the opponents army or summed up, to minimise the opponents movement.

Combat will only benefit you if you have defeated your opponent in the use of movement!!

The game is won and lost in movement.

In summuary. If you want to be good at warhammer, plan and play your army with movement!!

You can be great at magic. You can be great at shooting. You can only be brilliant with movement.

QFT! Best post in a while around here. I've been yelling the same thing for a year here.

By movement you mean deployment right?

Deployment dictates the movement of models and how useful they'll be in the game. Bad deployment can kill your army no matter how well you move them. By the time you get to the actual movement part, the work is already done and the movement is obvious.

I should have clarified MS. Deployement is rolled into movement for me. Movement being where the hell you place you miniatures, from the get go. Which includes of course deployment.

And thanks Ragnar. A warm welcome to the forums indeed.

Mastershake wrote:By movement you mean deployment right?

Deployment dictates the movement of models and how useful they'll be in the game. Bad deployment can kill your army no matter how well you move them. By the time you get to the actual movement part, the work is already done and the movement is obvious.

I don't think this is necessarily true. I play wood elves, and I've only had a few games, but they're so manueverable (and can also move forests) that my deployment hasn't made of broken me in the few games I've had. My movement after the deployment has, however, won and lost me a game each this past week...

Its true i believe RiT that movement after deployement breaks your games. But saying deployment doesnt give you an edge would be ridiculous.

Those are my thoughts too. I once gave my top 3 helpful tips to a newer player than myself as; 1) set-up and movement are crucial, 2) movement and set-up are crucial, and 3) making sure your troops are in the right place at the right time which implies, yep you guessed it, set-up and movement are crucial. I think I gave some other advice, but hopefully I got my point across.

So do you think having your troops being fast is better or being able to control how your enemies move is better?


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I think deployment can be just as crucial as movement in certain armies. I know my dwarfs suffer greatly if I don't start them in the right spot in the beginning.

No, Controlling enemies movement is far superior. If you have a mechanic that can cause your opponent to present flanks and line block consistently, it's much better than being super fast.

Although, Tomb Kings being able to move to a flank and THEN charge with regular consistency is HUGE. So much so that:

1) Controlling enemies movement
2) Having extra movement phases yourself
3) Having Fast Movement

In Theory.

The meta game looks more like
1) Having extra movement phases yourself (Disgustingly reliable, in the armies its present in)
2) Being super fast (more prevalent)
3) Controlling opponents movement (almost impossible to come by, and very hard to do)

One could argue that controlling opponents movement is done through March Blocking or bait n flee. But it's only partial control.

Slaanesh Daemons control movement. Incredibly powerful ability.

EDIT:

As TK player I know that the smitings on the catapult, the Casket of Souls, they are all just window dressing around the army's core mechanic, which is using Urgency to get into combat when/where you want it.

Can you give some more examples? My limited experience is with dwarfs, wood elves, and dark elves. I am only thinking of getting the opponent to move where I want him by march blocking or redirecting charges with my troops or being able to get to the flanks with the speed of my calvary or flyers.

I'm willing to argue, that deployment is only 25% of movement. You have 6 turns to do the job, and the faster units can re-deploy pretty quickly to help out where needed if you did get out-deployed.

To suggest though that deployment is more important than movement is ludacris unless you have a primarily static army. The dwarves do very little movment and maintain a relatively static line, so they HAVE to have good shooting lanes, and laneblocking, and pinches.

But my Tomb Kings couldn't care a lick about how they deploy. I'll still out-maneuver my oppoennt, get the charges, and end up on the flank as often as I want.

Can you enlighten me about the TK? Is their manueverability due to their magic or do they have special movement abilities?

If i am playing dwarfs what would be some other useful tactics besides set up is crucial

Tomb Kings cannot march. They have Chariots that are light cavalry with an 8 inch move, they have Carrion which fly, and they have light and Heavy cav that move 8 also.

The trick is they can charge double their charge rate.

They also can magically encant spells that never fail

Take any iteration of any of your armies. How many dispell dice do you have?

Now try to figure out, in your mind, stopping a Bound 3, a bound d6, a bound d6, a bound 4, a bound 2d6, followed by another bound 2d6.

The bound 3 raises ore skellies
the Bound d6 is an attempt to move
the bound 2d6 is an attempt to move
the bound 4 is 3d6 str 2 hits.
A typical TK player has an additional one use item that is a bound 2d6.

Every move your opponent is trying to encant is a combat he expects to win, and win big.

Movement is the dwarfs biggest weakness. To combat this, we take guns that can reach places we can't get to. At 2k or more, we take the anvil because it can help us move farther or stop the enemy from moving as much. When opponents complain about the standard boring anvil/gunline, then we have to get really creative and work from a bigger disadvantage than them. Gyrocopters are excellent march blockers, and oathstones help against flank and rear charges, granted once set you are stuck there the rest of the game.

Although movement is an obviously important part of Fantasy, I like to put my faith in the stats and combat ability of my units. You can get off a nasty flank charge, but if the dice roll poorly then you're not getting any active CR, meaning you're not winning combats. If there is any way I can alter a unit so that a particular stat increases, I'm game for it. (I.E. Great Weapons, 2 Hand Weapons, whatever helps get that unit's job done)

ernshmagl wrote:If i am playing dwarfs what would be some other useful tactics besides set up is crucial

'

I think strategically you need to consider the best ways to leverage your strenghts. You kick butt in combat, you have some amazing war-machines. You shut down magic pretty well, and you have some of the most disgusting str4 shooting in the game.

What you lack is movement. You also lack the ability to re-focus to your opponents manouvering. (This alone is why I will never play Dwarves at the ultra competitive level. My opponent can pick off my thunderers, and crossbowmen, and warmachines and then stay back the rest of the game.)

Some of the strenghts you should consider. Cannons have a ridiculous range, and more importantly, when shooting from the front only ever hit one model in certain instances. How do you maximize this?

You have a unit that will never, ever run, it will die to the last man. In what unique ways can you leverage this strenght?

You have the most accurate bolt throwers in the world.

You have the most accurate stone throwers in the world

You have cheap warrios that are exremely affordable. at what point does the cost per warrior not be worth it to add to a unit? (My guess is 15 models. yours?)

You have a solid march-blocker in the Gyrocopter. (what's the best way to use it in order to get multiple uses out of an underused model to justify its points cost?)

Wow. So TK chariots and calvary can charge upto 32"? Plus they have all that added magic. Are the chariots and calvary weak? Does the magic cost more? Granted I see some of that magic being less effective depending on the army you are facing, but still that is some pretty nice magic.

About the dwarfs; war machine crews are only stubborn not unbreakable, so never might be a strong word. Most accurate bolt thrower? Don't elves have a BS of 4, too? Warriors are hard as nails, but often lose because of being flank charged or striking last.

TK movement is heavily magic-based, and it makes chariots pretty deadly. However, TK Chariots are light chariots, and so do less impact hits than regular chariots.

TK Cav is just pathetic, IMHO, S4 on the charge is pitiful. Now if we're talking light cav, they're pretty solid, but they aren't as good as certain other units of fast cavalry due to the inability to march.

TK magic is offset in that Liche Priests can only cast within 12" and can only cast 1 incantation.

Dwarf Warriors have marginal CC ability, 6 S3 attacks is nothing to write home about.

Cryonicleech wrote:TK movement is heavily magic-based, and it makes chariots pretty deadly. However, TK Chariots are light chariots, and so do less impact hits than regular chariots.

TK Cav is just pathetic, IMHO, S4 on the charge is pitiful. Now if we're talking light cav, they're pretty solid, but they aren't as good as certain other units of fast cavalry due to the inability to march.

TK magic is offset in that Liche Priests can only cast within 12" and can only cast 1 incantation.

Dwarf Warriors have marginal CC ability, 6 S3 attacks is nothing to write home about.

TK Cav is fine. 5x3 with the warbanner is a rockstar. 4x4 with the warbanner was even better.

Tomb Kings rely on outnumber and ranks to win a combat. Quit focusing on how much worse stats wise they are compared to a chaos warrior. US 30 +4 static res. With a 24 inch effective range, they can start out waaaaay out on a flank and be battle relevant on turn 2.

Dwarf Warriors are T4 WS4 and have amazing saves. Their CC ability is not in how much they kill, it's in how long they last.

Whoa, let's calm down and pull back here.

I'm not comparing them to Chaos Warriors, I'm comparing them to what they're supposed to be compared to, other heavy cavalry. Sure, you can take them in huge units if you have the points, but the idea is that you need to take so many to reach a level of effectiveness that generally there are other units that could do the same job and be better at it.

Sure, Dwarfs last long. Nobody's contending that, what I'm saying is that although they are a great anvil, they won't be dishing out much punishment.

Also the dwarfs are tough and resilient, but are usually out maneuvered so usually end up losing due to flanking.

Ok. So back to the topic. Is it the 24" charge or the magic that makes the TK good?

Magic, definitely magic.

As Ragnar4 stated, TK wins combats through static resolution, and the only reason they can charge forward so far is due to their magic.

See now I am under the impression that I could still make a competitive TK army without the magic. I could use that 24" charge in the second turn and definitely get the flanks I want. I am assuming that TK troops are still relatively cheap due to there lower stats so I should still be able to outnumber the enemy. But this is all just my opinion and I don't have the experience to back it up.

You need the magic to do a 24" charge. 8 inch normal move, 16 inch charge.

Flyers, 20 inch normal move, 20 inch charge.

Walkers, 4 inch normal move, 8 inch charge.

oops my bad I thought that was their special ability or something. So they need magic to move well? Besides their flyers. With no marching and needing magic to get that extra 8" in their charge, I wouldn't rely on them all the time. I think I will stick with my WE and DE for my speed armies. I have never been found of magic, it is too fickle for me.

Meh, it's not so bad. The spells in the TK list never fail. Ever. they can't be mis-cast and they count as incantations at the powerlevel you roll.

TK are the fastest list in the game.. pure unadulterated speed. 40 inch carrion. 3'4" in one turn. That's 20 feet in a 6 turn game that they travel!

Cryonicleech wrote:Although movement is an obviously important part of Fantasy, I like to put my faith in the stats and combat ability of my units. You can get off a nasty flank charge, but if the dice roll poorly then you're not getting any active CR, meaning you're not winning combats. If there is any way I can alter a unit so that a particular stat increases, I'm game for it. (I.E. Great Weapons, 2 Hand Weapons, whatever helps get that unit's job done)

The Nasty flank charge usually eliminates static combat res, if you flank a block with a unit that only has a standard you are ALREADY at equal combat res, if you get a quarter of the statistical kills from the unit, you are still winning by a couple.

So if we took a unit of chaos knights and a unit of heavy calvary skeletons, we assume the chaos knights would win. Now add in the fact that you could probably get more skeletons than chaos knights for the same cost. Lets also assume that the skeletons have a greater advantage of getting the flank charge on the chaos knights. Would the 6 or 7 or 8(I don't know the difference in cost) skeleton heavy calvary with a flank charge be enough to beat the 5 stronger chaos knights? To me, that would prove movement is more important than the stats.