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I wanted to see if I was right about this. I was posting some things about BT allied with DH and put this as a benefit then I wondered if I was right.

This would be if I have a unit of Grey knights and I wanted to throw the Emperors Champ in with them or something like that. I have not been doing this with the lists I've been playing for this but I might and I want to see what the deal is.

If you have a group of allied Grey knights with an IC from the main force is the group still shrouded.

Here is some thinking both ways.

Pro
The unit is still a unit of Grey knights and adding an IC does not change that.
If you have a special rule on the unit like furious charge the unit still has it when an IC join, they just don't get it.

Con
If you have infiltrate and you add a character without it then since he does not have the skill the whole unit does not.

It will depend on the wording. If the wording specifically states "A unit of GK" then it would *not* work, as the unit with a BT champ allied is NOT a unit of GK, it is a unit of [GK+other]

In addition it is pointless looking to USRs for guidance - they have their own "logic" and a specific set of rules for their interaction with ICs'; everything else you have to sue on a case by case basis, using the wording of the specail rule.

I would say that they're still shrouded.

A unit of GK is still a unit of GK, whether or not there's a character with them.

I'd just go with the whole "unit majority" bit that is used in so many other aspects of the game.

Except, by definition, tehy are *not* a unit of GK, as I already explained.

Same as a Space Wolf force allied with DH is not a "Space Wolves Army"

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, by definition, tehy are *not* a unit of GK, as I already explained.

Yeah, but I reject your explanation.

Semantics aside, since it's Grey Knights will be taking wounds from the shooting, the Shrouding should still take effect.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Same as a Space Wolf force allied with DH is not a "Space Wolves Army"

Of course it is. It's a Space Wolf army with DH allies.

Some Grey Knights will be taking wounds, some won't be Grey Knights. Your explanation is flawed, and your rejection has no logic or language basis.

Reread the SW codex, note where it defines what a Space Wolf Army is. Does it mention DH? No. Then guess what it isnt....

Shrouding would not take effect because the IC doesn't have it.

If you want to say the GK still have shrouding, go ahead, and play it with me. I will just target the IC without using the Shrouding rules, that's all. Bye Bye IC then.

Monster Rain wrote:Yeah, but I reject your explanation.

Oh well that settles it then! </sarcasm>

nosferatu1001 is spot on as usual.

Gwar! wrote:nosferatu is sport on as usual

Football or Rugby? ASsuming I get the choice, Rugby...

I ADMIT NOTHING!

And the sport in question is Womens Badminton!

If the arguement is that if an IC joins a squad then it stops being that type squad then you could the argue that troops are not troops if they have an IC as they become troop+IC so they can't capture because the book says only troops can capture.

Also if they stop being grey knight this way then all the GK rules would not work.

I could understand that the Grey knights keep their rules and the IC does not benefit.

So in this case if a unit had line of sight to the IC and the IC was in range but the shrouding obscures the rest of the unit then as the IC is part of the unit they would get to shoot at them but they GK get a 4+ cover as you can't see more then 50%. The GK could still take wounds as you can apply then to anyone in the unit.

That follows no rules at all, and your rebuttal doesnt either.

They dont "stop being GK", they stop being a unit composed entirely of Grey Knights. There is a difference, please dont ignore it.

It is a unit of Grey Knights and an IC from another chapter, it is not a Grey Knight unit. That is it, finito, end.

Only wilfully twisting the language to mean something entirely opposite gives your conclusion.

Gwar! wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Yeah, but I reject your explanation.

Oh well that settles it then! </sarcasm>

nosferatu1001 is spot on as usual.

It settles it for me.

Since it's a pretty gray area, there's no way to be completely correct I don't know where your delusion of authority comes from. I'd never do this, but wouldn't argue against an opponent doing so because it's still a unit of Grey Knights. The only thing in the Special Rules bit on page 48 that I can see is that the Special Rules wouldn't be conferred onto the Character joining the unit. The codex also doesn't specify that the GK lose the ability if a Character joins them. The idea that they're no longer considered a "unit of Grey Knights" was made up on the spot. So it would seem to me that they're still shrouded.

You're better off having a Grand Master in there though.

It isnt a grey area as the rules of language tell you this.

Your choosing to ignore those rules, and then claim it is a "grey" area, does not make it so.

What is the wording on shrouding? is it a rule listed in each entry (ie. hero, GK troops) or as an armywide effect for 'GK units'?

Army wide effect for "GK Units"

Then nosferatu is spot on as I see it.

As the wording on IC's joining units doesn't preclude the following situation:

Gutsmek Wazzdaka (Bike) joins a unit of Lootas (Infantry).
It is not a unit of bikes.
It is not a unit of infantry.
It is a unit.

An IC is a unit, a unit of troops is a unit. Joining them creates the lowest common denominator situation.
A non GK IC can't join a unit of GK and call himself part of a GK unit, and sadly, neither can the GK's.

You seem to have missed the rule that says any Daemonhunters force containing Grey Knights may not have any allied Space Marine forces - so the question is kinda pointless...

Except a space marines force can take allied DH....

A. The character is joined to a unit of Grey Knights.
B. Shrouding is a Grey Knight ability and nothing in this case says that ability is taken away.
C. Anything shooting at the unit is shooting at the Grey Knights too.

If you're going to say that the unit does not get shrouding then you might as well also say every unit in the game with any sort of special power loses it as soon as an IC without that ability joins the unit.

The only situation I can see where you could argue against the shrouding would be cases in which a model is shooting at a specific model because of a special ability, i.e. a vindicare assassin.

Mike Leon wrote:If you're going to say that the unit does not get shrouding then you might as well also say every unit in the game with any sort of special power loses it as soon as an IC without that ability joins the unit.

Simply not true. No one is saying that, or even implying it. The DH codex's entry is for GK units. This problem ONLY arises with ally units from other lists
because the unit joined by a non-GK is no longer wholly GK.

That doesn't confer this argument to many other situations.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It isnt a grey area as the rules of language tell you this.

Your choosing to ignore those rules, and then claim it is a "grey" area, does not make it so.

The "Independent Characters joining & leaving units" section outlines the rules for this discussion, and doesn't say anything to support your claim.

Anyone shooting at the GK unit + IC is in fact shooting at a GK unit, which allows Shrouding to be use per the DH codex.

However, if a GK Hero joins a non-GK unit as an IC, and that unit is shot at, the non-GK unit+ GK IC does not gain Shrouding, again per the DH codex.

Another example: Vindicar assassin shoots at the EC joined to a GK unit; Shrouding is not used as the target of the shot is not a GK unit.

Flipped: Vindicar assassin shoots a GK GM attached to a Marine command squad; Shrouding is use because the target is a GK unit.

Shrouding is not a USR, it is a special rule conferred to all GK units. Due to 5th Ed wound allocation rules and how "units" are defined, a IC is never the target of an attack directed at the unit the IC is attach to.

SJ

jeffersonian000 wrote:Anyone shooting at the GK unit + IC is in fact shooting at a GK unit, which allows Shrouding to be use per the DH codex.

If this is your logic, how would this play out?

An Inquisitor joins a Space Marine Tactical Squad. This squad is affected by the armywide effect 'ATSKNF.' This effect affects all Space Marine units, but is
not an entry in the codex's entry for that specific unit. The Inquisition guy benefits from power armored friends being in his combined unit, but would the Space Marines
regroup in line with the ATSKNF entry for the army?

Zain60 wrote:

jeffersonian000 wrote:Anyone shooting at the GK unit + IC is in fact shooting at a GK unit, which allows Shrouding to be use per the DH codex.

If this is your logic, how would this play out?

An Inquisitor joins a Space Marine Tactical Squad. This squad is affected by the armywide effect 'ATSKNF.' This effect affects all Space Marine units, but is
not an entry in the codex's entry for that specific unit. The Inquisition guy benefits from power armored friends being in his combined unit, but would the Space Marines
regroup in line with the ATSKNF entry for the army?

It's apples to oranges.

One is morale based, the other is for shooting distances.

Monster Rain wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It isnt a grey area as the rules of language tell you this.

Your choosing to ignore those rules, and then claim it is a "grey" area, does not make it so.

The "Independent Characters joining & leaving units" section outlines the rules for this discussion, and doesn't say anything to support your claim.

Incorrect, please try again.

A "GK Unit" is one, by definition, composed entirely of GK models. As soon as you add anything thast is not a GK model to it, it is no longer a GK unit. To argue otherwise requries you to wilfully ignore the language the game is written in.

Please try again.

It's apples to oranges.

One is morale based, the other is for shooting distances.

Oh, I was under the impression this thread was about an IC gaining the benefit / squad potentially losing a benefit listed as an armywide rule for units of only one army.



Zain~

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It isnt a grey area as the rules of language tell you this.

Your choosing to ignore those rules, and then claim it is a "grey" area, does not make it so.

The "Independent Characters joining & leaving units" section outlines the rules for this discussion, and doesn't say anything to support your claim.

A "GK Unit" is one, by definition, composed entirely of GK models. As soon as you add anything thast is not a GK model to it, it is no longer a GK unit. To argue otherwise requries you to wilfully ignore the language the game is written in.

Please try again.

I'll do nothing of the sort, as I'm bored with this pointless thread.

Show me something, in RAW, that says that adding an IC somehow changes what models are in a unit. Then you will have said something useful.

Jeffersonian has explained it perfectly. If you don't see the logic in his post, only you are to blame.

Zain60 wrote:

It's apples to oranges.

One is morale based, the other is for shooting distances.

Oh, I was under the impression this thread was about an IC gaining the benefit / squad potentially losing a benefit listed as an armywide rule for units of only one army.



Zain~

That explains your confusion then.

Inquisitors are Fearless and, like all Fearless ICs, do not convey this ability to units they join.

If an Inquisitor joins a unit of space marines with ATSKNF, he is still Fearless, however the space marines can still break and he would have to fall back with them if he is in the unit. I would have to check the next part to be sure, but I believe he can act normally after they rally because the ATSKNF rule says "the unit" may act normally and "the unit" includes any ICs joined to the unit.

Also, Jeffersonian did hit the nail on the head. You cannot shoot at an IC. You can only shoot at a whole unit, as per 5th edition rules.

Also, nothing says that a unit of BLANKS must be composed entirely of BLANKS. There is nothing like that in the rules or the DH codex. I think this is where some of you are confused. A unit of Grey Knights is still a unit of Grey Knights, whether it is joined by an Inquisitor, or Dante, or Abaddon or Godzilla. Still Grey Knights. Still has Grey Knight abilities.

Also, why is this even an issue? Shrouding is a nearly (NEARLY) useless ability. It isn't worth a flame war.

Monster Rain - you do realise the game is written in English, and is not an inclusive ruleset dont you?

If you dont believe this, show me the *in game* definition of "the". Or "a". etc.

No we've shown the game is not an inclusive ruleset, show something that contradicts what I have already stated: that as soon as you add a non-GK unit (IC) to a GK unit it cannot, by the definition of "unit", be a GK unit any longer.

Or you fail. But you've apparently run out of arguments already.