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Having been told multiple times that "most people" do not play this by the rules, I am curious to see how Dakka plays it.

Do you:
Option A: Play by The Rules, which is that in order to join the a unit pre game he must deploy within coherency with them. As a unit without the Infiltrate USR (obviously) do not have the Infiltrate USR, the only way this can be done is if he joins them before infiltrators are deployed, at which point they are already deployed and cannot then Infiltrate. He can, of course, opt to join them in reserve, where he confers the ability for the unit to arrive via Outflank.

Option B: Ignore the rules and allow Shrike and a Unit to Deploy via the Infiltrate USR.

Option C: Other. Please Write in and tell us what you do.

Why should your opinion be the roolz?

Sorry, shrike does infiltrate a unit he's with, and thus almost everyone reads: IC + unit = both infiltrate.
Never heard / seen anyone playing it the way you think its "per the rules".

What about a scenario where you deploy Shrike and then deploy an infiltrating unit such that one model in the infiltrating unit is within 2" of Shrike. I think this is an acceptable way to pull this off. Other than that I agree that Shrike can't infiltrate and he doesn't get the bonus of the unit just because he joined it.

1hadhq wrote:Why should your opinion be the roolz?

This is not my "opinion". Option A is strict Rules as Written.

I wonder if people are hitting Option B just to spite the poll. I haven't voted, because I think the two options are ridiculously worded (no bearing on what I actually feel about the rule itself).

puma713 wrote: I wonder if people are hitting Option B just to spite the poll. I haven't voted, because I think the two options are ridiculously worded (no bearing on what I actually feel about the rule itself).

How are they ridiculously worded? You either play by the rules or you don't. Which one do you do?

In the SM codex pg. 92:
See, but Remain Unseen:
Shrike (and models in his squad ) benefit from the infiltrate special rule.

I am not trying to start a fight, but doesn't that mean that the squad he is attached to at the time is given the USR infiltrate. That being said, he has to deploy with them to grant the ability. Right?

Gwar! wrote:Bias poll is Bias.

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Why should your opinion be the roolz?

This is not my "opinion". Option A is strict Rules as Written.

Have to disagree.
Option A+B is your own failure to create a unbiased and probably objective poll.

Still impossible to vote RAW, chose "other".

Biased poll is biased. Seriously Gwar, just running this poll immediately negates your right to criticize anyone else's polling technique.

As to the rule; RAW, it doesn't quite work, no. However, it is clearly intended to allow you to add Shrike to a unit, and then infiltrate that unit. I would cheerfully allow it; however, I would then use the goodwill created to help me persuade the other player that I'm allowed to attach a Warboss to Snikrot's squad (which RAW DOES work, but people don't like).

EDIT: Oh, yes, I chose "Other", because biased polls deserve that kind of thing. Try again, Gwar.

EDIT^2; Just out of curiousity, "Gwar" is an acronym for "Rules As Written Guy" written backwards, right?

Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote: I wonder if people are hitting Option B just to spite the poll. I haven't voted, because I think the two options are ridiculously worded (no bearing on what I actually feel about the rule itself).

How are they ridiculously worded? You either play by the rules or you don't. Which one do you do?

It's ridiculously worded because they're you're interpretation of the rules. Already you've had valid rebuttals of your interpretation. So, you're saying, "My interpretation is correct. And that's that." And that is what your poll is reflecting.

So, let's say I have a similar poll:

Option A: Marneus Calgar has a pair of matched power fists. He gets +1 attack for having dual powerfists, even if he "chooses" to use them.

Option B: Marneus Calgar has a pair of matched power fists, and he doesn't get +1 attack for having to choose to use them.

Option C: Other.

How do you play?

You would hit B. Now, is that RAI or RAW? Well, to you, RAI = RAW. But that's not everyone's interpretation. To some (and most, I'd wager) RAI = RAI.

So, you'd choose B. But, do you actually play that way? If you played in a game against Ultramarines and you fought against Marneus Calgar, would you argue till you're blue in the face about his +1 attack or not?

You probably wouldn't. So, eventually, even you would be choosing Option A, which is RAI by most standards.

That's why your poll is ridiculously worded. There is RAW and there is RAI. RAI may or may not be the same thing as RAW, that's why there's an interpretation. Remember, the Most Important Rule is that Rules Aren't That Important. Pg. 2 - RAW.

Again, how is it Bias? I am not saying "You Follow the Rules, you charming Studmuffin" and "You are not following the rules, you horrible baby kitten eater".

I don't care if you follow the rules or not, I just was wondering how people did play it.

The rules are that you cannot infiltrate a unit with Shrike, unless they already have the Infiltrate USR. That is because they are not "his unit" until they are deployed in coherency with eachother, whcih is impossible to do in the Infiltrate deployment step unless you *already* have infiltrate.

Gwar! is utterly correct on the actual rules on this. In addition, saying "Gwar! is wrong!" is not actuallya rebuttal, look the word up and see what it means.

I would have to disagree with you, because main rule book pg. 48 top paragraph right side:
An independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed with them.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The rules are that you cannot infiltrate a unit with Shrike, unless they already have the Infiltrate USR. That is because they are not "his unit" until they are deployed in coherency with eachother, whcih is impossible to do in the Infiltrate deployment step unless you *already* have infiltrate.

Gwar! is utterly correct on the actual rules on this. In addition, saying "Gwar! is wrong!" is not actuallya rebuttal, look the word up and see what it means.

Ah, Gwar!'s lackey. Every time there's a Gwar! post, there's a nosferatu post either 1 or 2 after it confirming his posts. Makes me wonder if Gwar! = nosferatu.

Anyway, if you were talking to me about the definition of rebuttal, I didn't say "Gwar! is wrong." I was referring to the above posts that have outlined how they play Shrike and how it could still be defined within the rules.

He would have gotten much less flak and a much more objective poll had his options been:

A: I play Shrike and his unit cannot infiltrate together.

B: I play that they can infiltrate together.

C: Otherwise.

But he can't do that. From the get-go he has to impose his interpretation on others, immediately calling them wrong before they've even voted. That's not a fair poll, that's saying, "Well if you vote B, you're wrong." Which is a biased poll.

I chose option C because your poll is terribly biased.

rednekgunner wrote:I would have to disagree with you, because main rule book pg. 48 top paragraph right side:
An independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed with them.

Yes, and you have still failed to answer how you are *deploying a unit at Infiltrate* without that unit already having Infiltrate. You do realise that only Infiltrators may set up in the Infiltrate step? And that the rule you quoted requires "by being deployed with them"?

Puma - except they never showed how it worked in the rules, just how they played it. Which means they are not a rebuttal - just a statement that Gwar! is wrong. This is a settled RAW issue - if in doubt please actually do a search.

Oh, and btw: I am not Gwar!'s lackey, however I do agree with him on a number of rules interpretations. On others we disagree - or is this simply me disagreeing with "myself"?

I'd suggest you retract your spurious claims and apologise, or I will report your post for breaking Dakka tenets.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rednekgunner wrote:I would have to disagree with you, because main rule book pg. 48 top paragraph right side:
An independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed with them.

Yes, and you have still failed to answer how you are *deploying a unit at Infiltrate* without that unit already having Infiltrate. You do realise that only Infiltrators may set up in the Infiltrate step? And that the rule you quoted requires "by being deployed with them"?

Pg 75
Infiltrate: Units with this special rule are deployed last.

Therefore, they can be deployed.

No, reread what i posted: *until* they are deployed with Shrike, they are not "his" unit - this uses the rule you previously quoted to show this.

So, until they have deployed, they are not "his" unit, and therefore *caqnnot* have Infiltrate. Agreed?

So, how are you deploying the unit via "Infiltrate" when the unit does not have "infiltrate", and *cannot* have infiltrate until after they have deployed by infiltrate - whihch they cannot do as they do not have Infiltrate.

Does that make it any clearer?

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, reread what i posted: *until* they are deployed with Shrike, they are not "his" unit - this uses the rule you previously quoted to show this.

So, until they have deployed, they are not "his" unit, and therefore *cannot* have Infiltrate. Agreed?

So, how are you deploying the unit via "Infiltrate" when the unit does not have "infiltrate", and *cannot* have infiltrate until after they have deployed by infiltrate - whihch they cannot do as they do not have Infiltrate.

Does that make it any clearer?

NO?

Rengeneering a new meaning into the BRB makes nothing "clear".

Still: IC joins = unit has USR. So you deploy both.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rednekgunner wrote:I would have to disagree with you, because main rule book pg. 48 top paragraph right side:
An independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed with them.

Yes, and you have still failed to answer how you are *deploying a unit at Infiltrate* without that unit already having Infiltrate. You do realise that only Infiltrators may set up in the Infiltrate step? And that the rule you quoted requires "by being deployed with them"?

Puma - except they never showed how it worked in the rules, just how they played it. Which means they are not a rebuttal - just a statement that Gwar! is wrong. This is a settled RAW issue - if in doubt please actually do a search.

Oh, and btw: I am not Gwar!'s lackey, however I do agree with him on a number of rules interpretations. On others we disagree - or is this simply me disagreeing with "myself"?

I'd suggest you retract your spurious claims and apologise, or I will report your post for breaking Dakka tenets.

Retract what? That you might be Gwar!? I won't. I don't know if you are or your aren't. You say that you disagree on some things. I'm not sure I've ever seen that. It's suspicious. Calling it suspicious is against the rules?

And, secondly, I don't even understand why this poll was posted. Gwar! doesn't care how other people play this. He's already got his mind made up (from the Options). If he really -did- care about what people thought, he would have posted objective answers, not clearly defined, self-incriminating answers. Everyone here seems relatively intelligent and they should understand that people, even if they are wrong, don't like to call themselves wrong, especially when they're asked to volunteer themselves to answer. Why ask someone, "You know you're wrong, right? If you know you're wrong, then select B!"

It seems like nothing more than an attempt to lord his RAW mentality over anyone that answers, objectively or otherwise.

Thirdly, I am not attacking anyone. I'm stating the way that posts/polls like this make me (and apparently others!) feel. If anyone should retract anything, Gwar! should retract this ridiculous poll. So go ahead, nosferatu, tell on me. Knock yourself out.

1hadhq wrote:NO?

Rengeneering a new meaning into the BRB makes nothing "clear".

Still: IC joins = unit has USR. So you deploy both.

Except you missed the vital part from that rule: the IC *starts the game* with the unit by *deploying in coherency with*

so you aren ot part of the unit until you have deployed in coherency with the unit. The only way to do this is for the unit to already be on the table.

Please try quoting actual rules next time, they may make your arguments less...lacking

I understand where your logic is coming from. Let's use a similar example. I have a Terminator squad, and I want to attach Lysander to them. The squad is deep striking, can Lysander join the squad?

Yes, because that is part of the Reserves rules, whcih states you are allowed to join units together if they are in Reserves.

This is entirely, 100%, completely different to the rules for joining ICs to units at normal Deployment (i.e. before Start the Game!) and utterly irrelevant to this discussion.

rednekgunner wrote:I understand where your logic is coming from. Let's use a similar example. I have a Terminator squad, and I want to attach Lysander to them. The squad is deep striking, can Lysander join the squad?

Yes, because the rules let you attach him in reserves.

The point I was trying to make was that a unit is deployed during the infiltrate stage, and Shrike gives a unit he is with infiltrate, logic dictates that they are allowed to infiltrate.

That is where I am coming from, and I hope you can at least understand the other side. I would like to thank you for this discussion, and look forward to our next debate.

Jesus what a terrible poll... Someone (Gwar) is running through the street yelling, "I love drama!!!"

Agreed, destroy this poll/post.

...And yes Gwar, I am attacking you. You try to take all the fun out of the game.

So, according to you, Shrike may never join a unit before the game begins, unless it is in Reserve.

All units are deployed first. Infiltrators are deployed last. Since Shrike has the Infiltrate USR, he may not join units and his units must be placed first, before infiltrators. Then, after both sides have deployed, you must deploy Shrike, even if he's not infiltrating.

RAW =/= RAI in this case, I don't believe.

So, since the rulebook says that models may move 6", you can't move 15.24 centimeters because the rulebook doesn't outline centimeters. It only says inches. You may not move centimeters, you may only move inches. So, I suppose I can't move at all because while I can move 6", it's against the rules to move 15.24 centimeters.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

1hadhq wrote:NO?

Rengeneering a new meaning into the BRB makes nothing "clear".

Still: IC joins = unit has USR. So you deploy both.

Except you missed the vital part from that rule: the IC *starts the game* with the unit by *deploying in coherency with*

so you aren ot part of the unit until you have deployed in coherency with the unit. The only way to do this is for the unit to already be on the table.

Please try quoting actual rules next time, they may make your arguments less...lacking

I am happy with arguments less lacking than yours.....but still spellchecking your post.

Still pre game 1 unit + IC => USR
And just for the record, your "RAW" interpretation should be considered as not answering the threads subject.
So HDYPI thread with 0 valid posts from nosferatu1001. Well done, +X posts to you

puma713 wrote:So, according to you, Shrike may never join a unit before the game begins, unless it is in Reserve.

Not according to me, according to the rules. You did read them, didnt you? they were posted just up above, by rednekgunner.

puma713 wrote:All units are deployed first. Infiltrators are deployed last. Since Shrike has the Infiltrate USR, he may not join units and his units must be placed first, before infiltrators. Then, after both sides have deployed, you must deploy Shrike, even if he's not infiltrating.

Wow, impressively muddled there. Not actually sure what you mean.

Units with Infiltrate *may* deploy last, they are not compelled to. Also in the rules you havent read. He CAN join units - units of infiltrators, as they deploy and *then* Shrike deploys in coherency with them, thus satisfying the rules quote above you. For the 5th time.

However, if the unit does not HAVE infiltrate, and as the only way for Shrike to join them is if they are already deployed, the unit must have deployed on the table first - and cannot do so as an Infiltrator, as they do not yet have the rule. By the time they get the rule, they have already deployed. Or, you hold them back from normal deployment - however at this point they can only go into Reserves, as they dont have Infiltrate.

Its a timing issue. Like needing to fill out the Pen requisition form when you dont have a pen, and not being allowed to fill out the form if you do have a pen. You can never satisfy all the conditions in order to ever fill out the form.

puma713 wrote:RAW =/= RAI in this case, I don't believe.

You are welcome to believe this, however you should probably read and understand some of the rules first.

puma713 wrote:So, since the rulebook says that models may move 6", you can't move 15.24 centimeters because the rulebook doesn't outline centimeters. It only says inches. You may not move centimeters, you may only move inches. So, I suppose I can't move at all because while I can move 6", it's against the rules to move 15.24 centimeters.

Nope, not at all. NIce try at building a strawman argument, however.