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Well, this weekend i am scheduled to fight an experienced Tyranids player. I admit, i am a bit intimidated.
This is my current list idea:

HQ
Farseer (runes of wit, doom)
Avatar of Khaine

TROOPS
10 Dire Avengers (Exarch, Bladestorm, wrist-mounted catapults)
10 Dire Avengers (same thing)
10 Dire Avengers (same thing)

ELITES
10 Striking Scorpians (Exarch, Chainsabres)
10 Striking Scorpians (same thing)
10 Striking Scorpians (same thing)

FAST ATK
10 Swooping Hawks (Exarch, Sunrifle, Skyleap)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Fire Prism (Vectored Engines)
3 War Walkers (all have shuirken cannons)
5 Dark Reapers (Exarch, Fast Shot, Crack Shot, Tempest Launcher)


Suggestions?
or wishes of luck?

I would suggest not taking scorpions at all: infantry-speed CC with no fleet is not good.

However, if you're going to take them, give the exarch a claw. The chainsabres are S3 and just not worth it.

I'd start, by getting Eldrad instead of a regular Farseer. He is just so much better, it's unbelievable. Edravatar is a very potent combination in a footslogging list.

My experience is Fire prisms tend to wreck Tyranids pretty badly. However, they will be the only target in this list, for anti tank fire. Hive guard will wreck them, first or second turn if these are the only skimmers your fielding.

I would suggest, perhaps fielding 6 War Walkers both with Scatter Lasers. If you guide them, (which you can do twice with Eldrad) they will wreck a Tyranid swarm without any issue, and with STR 6 on the SL they will wound most of the TMC on a 4+.

3 War Walkers with twin SL puts out 24 shots a turn. so, you can put out 48 a turn with two sets of three.

Warp spiders will be way, WAY better, than Swooping hawks, for your fast attack slot. Two STR 6 shots, will wound just about everything in the Tyranid army on a 4+, including Trygons, Carnifexs, and Hive Tyrants. They can also outmaneuver just about anything.

Scorpions arn't a bad idea, to feild with the Avatar. I'll echo WillyD, and say if you are going to use them, to use the Scorpions claw, to finish combat with those pesky MC.


Dark Reapers are more for killing Meqs, and with the as much cover as there is now, they aren't as useful as they used to be, but I suppose you could give them a shot.


Anyway, YMMV

Revised List:

HQ
Avatar
Eldrad

TROOPS
(Same as before)

ELITES
10 SS (exarch, claw)
10 SS (same)
10 SS (same)

FAST ATK
10 Warp Spiders (exarch, extra deathspinner, powerblades)

HEAVY SUPPORT
3 War Walker (all shuriken cannons)
3 War Walker (same)
Fire Prism (Vectored)

After looking over list:

I see where you are coming from with Eldrad, he is a much better choice. And i agree with you on the warp spiders and war walkers. But i still think that scorpians would be the best elite choice, but i did give them the claw.

For Tyranids? yeah, SS are better. if you ever want to build an All comer list though, you might change your mind.

For Walkers, you still showing SC, instead of SL, was that a typo, or are you going to use Shurcannons over the Scatter Lasers?

Well. The thing about the shurcannons is that i like killing tyranids out-right, and i think that gaunts save is a 5+? I'm probably wrong. If i am then i would definately switch it up for scatter lasers, the only other problem is points, that list comes off at 2004, so SL would put me over considerably.

6+ for Gaunts.

I'd take of the Vectored engines on the FP. It isn't really all that useful. Holo-fields are usually the only upgrade I take, if I take any, on a FP.

And, i am a list-building junkie. I almost always build a new list for every battle. So if i was doing a battle aganist something other than tyranids then the SS would probably change, unless i was fighting orcs, or imp guard..or something similarly horde-y.

I'd consider a highly mobile force vs. Nids.
For this, I'd mount blade storming DA's into Serpents.

The only problem i can see this list having trouble with is trygons. If one of those horrible beasties pops out near one of those DA units (especially prime) their shooting will more than hurt the unit in question. S6 with 6 wounds in hard to deal with and at the moment you seem to be lacking on big guns to take them out at range.

If you come against a HT with 2 x TL Devourers they will be more than able to pop open war walkers with ease.

I dont know much about eldar so i'm commenting from a nid players point of view.

Please post if you believe i am comepletey mistake, if i am i apologise =)

Phish Skills, you are absolutely right. There is one gun in this list over S6 and thats a lonely Fire Prism which is both a big target and needs to be only shaken to be guaranteed not to shoot for a turn. I guess the Avatar also has a spear but that's a little different.

This list is strange to me because there are no Fire Dragons and I love Fire Dragons. They need a Serpent but god are they good for quick Trygon mop-up duty. Nothing works quite as well in the eldar list barring more Fire Prisms.

I would also suggest running either 2 Fire Prisms or none because they are literally hit and miss without the combined shooting. I run 3 so I couldn't imagine not having at least 2 for the first couple of turns. Nothing like dropping an AP3 large blast on some Doomed warriors and watching them go splat.

I think, the point of his list was to footslog, and not mech up.


Fire prisms/mech don't fit his list, right now, without a total revamp.

If the Enemy has Hive guard, the chances are that the FD skimmer would go down first turn, and the FPs shortly after, if that is all the mech he is fielding.

A hive tyrant, would easily die, before he got close enough.

The Volume of shots that this list puts out, has more than enough potentinal to take out any TMC in one turn of shooting, and then some.

All of the Scorps have a Scorpions Claw as well, and TMC have no defense against power weapons.

I think his list will do fine, hopefully he will let us know.

i think power blades on spiders are waste you dont want them to be in hth in first place and withraw is guite nice if nasty gaunts catch you

Eldar=Win wrote: Well, this weekend i am scheduled to fight an experienced Tyranids player. I admit, i am a bit intimidated.
This is my current list idea:

HQ
Farseer (runes of wit, doom)
Avatar of Khaine

TROOPS
10 Dire Avengers (Exarch, Bladestorm, wrist-mounted catapults)
10 Dire Avengers (same thing)
10 Dire Avengers (same thing)

ELITES
10 Striking Scorpians (Exarch, Chainsabres)
10 Striking Scorpians (same thing)
10 Striking Scorpians (same thing)

FAST ATK
10 Swooping Hawks (Exarch, Sunrifle, Skyleap)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Fire Prism (Vectored Engines)
3 War Walkers (all have shuirken cannons)
5 Dark Reapers (Exarch, Fast Shot, Crack Shot, Tempest Launcher)


Suggestions?
or wishes of luck?

Well for a start I'd give the Farseer Fortune rather than Doom to protect the Avatar. A Fortuned Avatar is very annoying especially for Nid players.

Second, I'd drop one (possibly 2 if you require the points for other things I am going to mention) squad of Scorpions and the Fire Prism. You don't need 3 squads of Scorpions. Instead give the Exarch of the other 1 or 2 Squads Shadowstrike to Infiltrate/Outflank onto the board and get as close to the Tyranid lines with them. The reason I'd drop the Fire Prism (as good as they are) is that they should only ideally be taken in 2's rather than alone.

With the extra points, I'd get a Wave Serpent or two to transport the Dire Avengers.

Also I'd give the War Walkers all Scatter Lasers or Eldar Missile Launcher because Tyranids hate them.

Drop the Tempest Launcher on the Dark Reaper Exarch and instead give him Eldar Missile Launcher. Cheaper but I'd say better against Tyranid's.

One thing you might want to consider if you have the points is Wraithguard. Tyranid Monstrous Creatures do NOT like being Instant Deathed . If you don't have the points for them, just drop a squad of Dire Avengers for them (trust me a squad of 5 with a Warlock will do when killing Monstrous Creatures!!!) and make sure they are in a Wave Serpent to get to the Monstrous Creatures as quickly as possible.

Other than that, your list is fine. Remember that Tyranids hate Mechdar lists - their Monstrous Creatures can't keep up with the Fast, Skimmer, Tanks of the Eldar to assault them. Try to avoid assaulting except with the Striking Scorpions - use them to kill off some Gaunts/Gants and possibly Genestealers or to tie up Monstrous Creature in Close Combat for a turn or 2.

Good Luck. Go and do Eldar proud!!!

Devastator wrote:i think power blades on spiders are waste you dont want them to be in hth in first place and withraw is guite nice if nasty gaunts catch you

Speaking from experience, powerblades are a very nice 10 point upgrade, giving you an extra attack on your WS5, I6 model, and power weapons to boot. One of the problems with withdraw is that you actually have to win the combat (or at least not lose horribly) in order to be able to make use of it. Powerblades are pretty well necessary for this to happen.

The Tyranids will be feasting soon. -If he goes ninja then you might not get to use the Dark Reapers much, or the War Walkers, or the Swooping Hawks, or the Dire Avengers (assuming they have no transport).

Even if he does go ninja he'd probably have a mawloc or two or at least a trygon, so that when you do bottle up in the middle of your deployment zone away from outflankers & having units covering each other, then the mawlocs could easily pop up & kill lots of your troops.

-Striking Scorpions?! Howling Banshees in my opinion are better, Initiative 10 on first round of combat against Genestealers, I did some play tests against them with my Nids and I had on average about 9-10 Genestealers dying on the first round before they could strike back.

I agree with the opinion on the wraithguard. They would help considerably aganist a Trygon, which my opponent almost always takes. Also, the list you were looking at, Reidy, was my first list, I revised it and reposted it.
I prefer Striking Scorpions to Howling Banshees because of their higher strength, better save, and many more atks. Yes, going at Int 10 helps, but i think that the SS would do better overall. A Mech list would leave me terribly out numbered and i dont want that. I think this footslogging list should work fine. I like the Tempest Launcher because in 5th edition anything that was Guess Range is now Barrage, so it doesnt need line of sight and ignores cover saves.

Mechdar lists can actually run into problems against gaunt heavy Nid forces. The sheer number of wounds, plus the Nids ability to simply cover half the board in units, can make use of tanks very difficult. Fire prisms help a lot against that, they are really the saving grace for a Mechdar list in many situations.

In terms of footslogging, I would consider taking Pathfinders, as they can easily do serious damage to any MC on the field. Tervigons and Trygons, along with Carnifex, are at high risk of being popped at range. I think you are getting a bit overzealous with your use of Scorpions, but if you were to switch to PF as troops, it would make for a very crisp Alaitoc scout army. Take Karandras, along with shadowstrike SS Exarchs (with PKs, and Biting blades if you like), Then fill the rest of your list out with Warp Spiders, and Warwalkers. I rarely use anything but Scatterlasers on my WW, S. cannons are nifty, but they put the WW in a very vulnerable spot. You will be placing your WW in range of many assaults, and small arms fire, in order to get any shots off. Taking a squad of 2 WW, with S. cannons, will provide you with a cheap tarpit unit that can hop in from an outflank, and tangle up annoying backfield troops, that the rest of your army can't reach in time.

Everything in your army can enter the game via DS, Outflank, or infiltration combined. With infiltration, you can concentrate a large portion of your army to assault/shoot the weak parts of your opponents force. Karandras can single-handedly deal with a Trygon if need be, but I wouldn't recommend trying it too often.

It is a very fun style of play, but it won't do particularly well against anything besides swarm armies. A Nidzilla list, would also be relatively easy to take on, if your army is large enough, and you have enough S. lasers, and PF shots. If you want to add a farseer in there, you can stick it in a small harlequin squad w/ shadowseer, and they can simply run from most things. Doom has a very effective range, and it will add much desired bonuses to your PF and WW firepower. Doom on an MC, plus shots from 6 WW w/ S. lasers (48 shots), and 15 PF (15 shots), is nigh to a death sentence for an MC of any order. Clearly such action would usually be overkill, but Trygons in particular can really disrupt footslogging forces, very abruptly. If you need that Trygon taken care of, you will have the recipe to do so.

Tbh I find Nids are either one of the easiest matchups for Mechdar if they don't have Hive Guard or one of the harder ones if they do (at which point everything shoots the Guard until die and it hopefully becomes an easy matchup again :p). However since you appear to be going down the foot based route, your main concern will probably be the Gaunts as they are going to be leading the charge at you and are more than capable to both holding you in place for the MCs and killing enough by themselves. Once they are dealt with then you can start picking off the MCs. Your revised list looks better tbh.

Personally I would be trying to avoid getting into combat at all against Nids, even the small stuff like Gaunts could happily wipe out those Scorpion units (through weight of numbers/Psychic powers and other bonuses) for significantly less points cost. Also those Scorpion units aren't exactly ideal for dealing with the MCs either (you are essentially relying on the Exarch for damage and the MC will squash a couple of your guys are turn to probably win the combat). However without changing to mech the rest of the Elites slots aren't really viable (Wraithguard aside, and they are expensive and really don't like poisoned Gaunts) so I don't know what to do with them really. Probably drop 1 unit and use the points for a few changes.

First thing I would definitely change in the list would be to add some Guardian Defenders, probably just with Scatter Lasers or Shuriken Cannons if you are only going to be playing Nids. They are cheap, gives you more scoring units (3 T3 units on foot is imo a bit too easy to kill off), will start doing damage further out and keep doing damage until they are all dead (due to the heavy weapon + Avatar) and most importantly will be able to screen your other more expensive units a bit.

The rest of your points I would use to upgrade all the War Walkers to Scatter Lasers. I would want to be starting almost everything on the board and start killing things asap (2xGuide + Doom from Eldrad) rather than outflanking and letting them move around for a couple of turns first. Consider two smaller units of Warp Spiders rather than 1 big unit if you can afford the second Exarch upgrade.

I wouldn't usually bother taking a single Prism (2 Prisms gives you a Marine killing pie-plate) but against Nids it can still do pretty well. Certainly doesn't need vectored engines though, keeping it clean is the easiest way to run them (Holos are a maybe as they can actually make it easier to destroy the main weapon which is why I avoid them).

Your list is designed to play the Tyranids game – a game I believe you will sorely loose.

I would go so far as saying a mechanized Eldar list is THE most difficult list for a Tyranid player to deal with. Because of a blanket T3, a non-mechanized list is arguably the easiest list for a Tyranid player to deal with.

The last Tyranid opponent I played with my Eldar army sighed heavily as we discussed the course of the game – “I was beaten by f-ing transports.”

And he was right. I could dictate the battle as I saw fit, take or contest objectives with minimal reprisal, and could inflict casualties on his army with impunity. Even loosing ~300 point squad of Warp Spiders + Autarch to a freak deepstrike mishap was inconsequential to the outcome of the game.

Edit* - My opponent was a 40k veteran, someone I would consider very skilled.

incarna wrote:Your list is designed to play the Tyranids game – a game I believe you will sorely loose.

I would go so far as saying a mechanized Eldar list is THE most difficult list for a Tyranid player to deal with. Because of a blanket T3, a non-mechanized list is arguably the easiest list for a Tyranid player to deal with.

The last Tyranid opponent I played with my Eldar army sighed heavily as we discussed the course of the game – “I was beaten by f-ing transports.”

And he was right. I could dictate the battle as I saw fit, take or contest objectives with minimal reprisal, and could inflict casualties on his army with impunity. Even loosing ~300 point squad of Warp Spiders + Autarch to a freak deepstrike mishap was inconsequential to the outcome of the game.

Edit* - My opponent was a 40k veteran, someone I would consider very skilled.

Depending on how you play the Hive Guard rule, since you can't gain a cover save for going flat out, I can see Tyranids having quite an easy time against mech eldar with the right list.

The only problem i can see this list having trouble with is trygons.

I'd consider a Seer Council.
It makes short work with MC's.

Well, this was the case in my game vs. Nids recently.

Alright guys, I'm back again. And before i show you yet another list idea, I'd like to thank you all, and tell you that the battle has been postponed seeing as i couldn't make it because i live in the middle of nowhere and couldnt get a ride. Anywho, it's coming up saturday, another week for planning.

The list: (Mechdar-ish)

HQ
Eldrad

TROOPS
10 Dire Avengers
(In Serpent)

10 DA
(In Serpent)

5 Pathfinders

5 Pathfinders

ELITES

10 SS (exarch, claw, shadowstrike)
10 SS (same)

FAST ATK
5 Warp Spiders (exarch, extra death spinner)

5 WS (same)

HEAVY SUPPORT
3 War Walkers (scatter lasers)
3 War Walkers (same)

The idea i had with this list came about when i sat here worrying about those outflanking genestealers. Then i thought, "hmm. what if i make his outflanking completely pointless, by having no flanks for him to mess with." hence, mechdar.
Also, this will be the second time i have fought his guy, and if we play the same amount of points, I'm betting he'll run the same list, which had pretty much nothing to deal with tanks.

The Plan:
An extremely mobile force like Eldar does best. Out move, and out shoot the opponent while hiding in comfy tanks. Outflank with SS, which i think is something he won't expect. Rape, Pillage, Succeed.

Why Runes of witnessing and no runes of warding?

When fighting nids I wouldn't leave home without runes of warding. Paroxism on SS means they are dead if they are assaulted by gaunts. Paroxism on just about any Eldar unit will wreck it for a turn.
Catalyst is nasty, you don't want Nids to cast it uncontested.
Zoenthropes will for the large part be shut down by runes of warding.
The bottom line is bugs are often vulnerable to psychic defense, don't leave home without runes of warding.

As far as Runes of witnessing goes, I'm not sure how it would work when combined with in the shadow of the warp. I'm guessing roll 4D6, discard the highest, and add the 3 lowest together with any double 1s or double 6's after the discard being a perils of the warp.

Mechanized fire dragons would do better against big bugs than dark reapers. A single str8 hit is more likely to wound a t6 nid than a pair of str5 hits.

Seems like a decent list.

I am not sure that using Eldrad is the best idea with the units you have though. Depending on how you use your WWs, Eldrad may not be able to guide them regularly. You could use two Guide-seer, and that would give you a lot more flexibility, while taking a bit of potential out, but also saving a few points.

Outflanking is very unreliable, and I would suggest trying to use infiltration as your primary tactic. With Eldrad around, you can infiltrate units, then move them through divination, reacting before the game starts to your opponents army placement. This will also serve as a great way to keep gaunts from gaining cover, simply by forcing them to stay a foot away from your units, during deployment. Never outflank Pathfinders, it is definitely a waste of time. You should try and stick them in comfortable parts of the board, that have enough cover for them to move around a bit inside. If they are about to be assaulted, you can simply run to the far side of cover, forcing your opponent to run into combat, denying many units from being able to get to you.

Infiltrating SS, puts them in range to assault up to the 3 ft. line. Your opponent will have to stay against his board edge, to avoid being assaulted turns 1-2.

willydstyle wrote:
Depending on how you play the Hive Guard rule, since you can't gain a cover save for going flat out, I can see Tyranids having quite an easy time against mech eldar with the right list.

A full squad of Hive Guard has a 44% chance of destroying a Wave Serpent in one turn… mathematically the most efficient ranged anti-Wave Serpent option available in the Tyranid army – possibly the most efficient ranged anti-Wave Serpent option in all of 40k. From a mathematical perspective, they look pretty decent but from a practical perspective they fall short.

Hive Guard have two serious drawbacks . First, they have a 24” range which a Wave Serpent can easily handle. A lot of factors need to be in place for a Tyranid Player to use Hive Guard effectively against an Eldar player. The best deployment scenario is either first turn spearhead – which gives the Eldar player the ability to see exactly where the Hive Guard are and deploy appropriately, or second turn Pitched Battle – which gives the Eldar player the ability to see exactly where the Hive Guard are and move appropriately.

Second, they are Lurkers with a relatively low leadership. This requires an Investment on behalf of the Tyranid player in synapse. If the Hive Guard are “static” than the synapse will also have to be “static”. If the Hive Guard are to advance with the rest of the Tyranid army, then they’ll likely be exposed and high priority for the Eldar player.

With that said, I do believe Hive Guard are excellent units. They are an extremely valuable “rock” to the current mechanized meta-game “scissors”. They would certainly help tremendously against a Mechanized Eldar army – but beyond their contribution, the Tyranids are basically out of efficient alternatives for dealing with AV 12+ fast skimmers.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldar=Win wrote:Alright guys, I'm back again. And before i show you yet another list idea, I'd like to thank you all, and tell you that the battle has been postponed seeing as i couldn't make it because i live in the middle of nowhere and couldnt get a ride. Anywho, it's coming up saturday, another week for planning.

The list: (Mechdar-ish)

The idea i had with this list came about when i sat here worrying about those outflanking genestealers. Then i thought, "hmm. what if i make his outflanking completely pointless, by having no flanks for him to mess with." hence, mechdar.
Also, this will be the second time i have fought his guy, and if we play the same amount of points, I'm betting he'll run the same list, which had pretty much nothing to deal with tanks.

The Plan:
An extremely mobile force like Eldar does best. Out move, and out shoot the opponent while hiding in comfy tanks. Outflank with SS, which i think is something he won't expect. Rape, Pillage, Succeed.

I believe I understand your reasoning with your Pathfinders but I’ll caution you against them. The entire Tyranid army is essentially fearless making sniper pinning moot. Next, 10 shots, even with rending, only gives you, an average of about 1 “rending” wound and 3 non-rending wounds. All Tyranid MC’s have between 4 and 6 wounds so you’ll not be inflicting much damage each turn. Third, Pathfinders real resiliency lies in having a 2+ cover save vs ranged attacks - attacks which will almost certainly be focusing on your scorpions until you’re in CC range, at which point you’ll fold like a wet napkin. Lastly, the Nids have a plethora of options available to get to grips with your pathfinders – outflanking, spore pods, fliers, fleet – all these chip away at your ability to take advantage of being deployed away from the action to pick apart targets of opportunity.

Also, let me remind you that Scorpions are not fleet. This significantly increases their chance of being charged if they are not mounted. If your scorpions take a charge from nearly any comparably priced unit, they will vanish. If they DO manage to get the charge, they will likely win combat but will be so badly mauled that they will almost certainly fail at their next task.

I’m telling you – add more Wave Serpents!

incarna wrote:First, they have a 24” range which a Wave Serpent can easily handle.

I'd disagree with this statement. A WS with SC/SL has a max 36" range. The thing is, since the Hive guard's guns are assault weapons(like everything in the Tyranids codex), the effective range on the weapon is actually 30". This gives you a 6" margin for error if you try to outrange them, which is quite tight. Also, if you're hovering outside of 30" of the Hive guard, you're only firing the Scatter Laser, which while it looks badass, isn't all that effective by itself. VS T6, 4 shots at BS3, TL'd is 3 hits...4s to wound is 1.5 wounds, and the worst save a T6 creature will be getting is a 4+(we'll assume no FNP, because in this match, catalyst'd be unreliable at best). So on Hive guard, we're looking at .75 wounds per turn, per outranging serpent. If you're in range of the SCat, it's 1.5 hits, .75 wounds, .375 plus the SL's .75 for a whopping total of 1.125 unsaved wounds per serpent.

All this is fine and dandy in a vacuum, of course. Eldar will also have war walkers(4 hits, 2 wounds, 1 unsaved/walker) to further pile on wounds, and Tyranids will either have a bunch of nasty CC MCs, and/or a couple of (severely underrated)Tyrannofexes or several HVC Tyrants/carnifices, which have no problem matching range with the eldar, and are much harder to kill with scatter lasers(96 TL SL shots on average to take out a T-Fex, 48 for a terv, 32 for a fex or naked Tyrant).

While I certainly agree with you that mech eldar are not a cakewalk for nids, do not discount the staying power, or shooting prowess of the nids. It's not just Hive Guard that you have to worry about, the MCs can do a TON of damage over the course of a game, and they WILL NOT go away easy. They will never get shaken, never get 1-shot, and are an absolute pain to wither.

That said, mechdar is a much better way to go than foot vs nids for sure.

schadenfreude wrote:As far as Runes of witnessing goes, I'm not sure how it would work when combined with in the shadow of the warp. I'm guessing roll 4D6, discard the highest, and add the 3 lowest together with any double 1s or double 6's after the discard being a perils of the warp.

They cancel each other out, so as long as you stay out of range of the shadow the runes will still work.

You're referring to an outdated FAQ if you think they cancel each other out. The closest analogue would be to use the Runes of Warding Vs. Witnessing situation, where you check all 3 dice for Perils and use the lowest 2 for the test. Alternatively, 4 dice will work fine as described.


Unless, of course, you'd rather every Tyranid in the army have Eternal Warrior by virtue of them being allowed to access an outdated FAQ.

I'm thinking about switching out the 10 rangers for some wraithguard.
Tyranids are not going to be that fond of instant death, wound on 2+ weapons. The only problem is the range