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So with me going to start a CSM army soon. I was able to use a buddie of mines SM and proxie a few ideas I had for the army. Come to find out.. Mech armies... Just not my thing. So foot sloggers it will be! So of course I have quite a few questions. All the questions I will be asking will be in the content of a 1.5k list. Also. Since its an all foot slogger army I am NOT going to use any tanks. So noo armor of any kind as I find just haveing one or 2 tanks is just to easy to pick off. For me its all armor or no armor. And in this case I am going NO armor. So the questions!!

( at 1.5 k points)

1. How many scoreing units should is good.

2. Anti tank? Havocs? Or would champs with bombs work?

3 Is having a good part of an army just DS in possible? but with so few models on the table turn 1 will they just get torn apart and by the time the DS cats show it there not be enuff on the board to hold it all together?

Good luck when you run into guard with a decent amount of ordnance.

1. Since you have no transports, your best bet is to just put as many power armor guys on the table, so take at least four troops choices, then expand to other portions of the list.

2. Champs with bombs are insufficient. You can use havoks with autocannons, or outflank chosen with some meltaguns, or drop 3-man suicide terminator squads, and definitely invest in Obliterators.

3. No. Chaos has no way of making deep strike more reliable, and drop pod armies are extremely easily to counter by simply staying in reserve (especially if you're Eldar, IG, and maybe Tyranids).

4. Expect a lot of losses, and the occasional win against people with poor tactics and worse lists like 6x chimera melta squads.

willydstyle wrote:Good luck when you run into guard with a decent amount of ordnance.

I couldn't find the exact words, but that IS what i was thinking. A pair of vanilla lemons will ruin your day

^ Yes it would, even with cover saves, pie plates of that kind pretty much mean mech is the way to go...

___________________

Agreed with:
1. Focus on troop choices.
2. Havocs/Oblits as support.

Because there won't be a rhino for Chosen, I suggest against them.
Infiltrate rules are too strict, while outflanking, their reach is too short.

3. DSing Termies are.. 'ok', but chances are the icon coverage won't be in places you'd like to drop in close to accurately so you'll be forced to go with combi-plasmas instead...which is not bad, but the close melta action is less and less viable with the lack of rhinos/armor to deliver troops to do that.

No matter what ArmorValue-less is an uphill climb if we are talking about facing off vs. standard competitive builds.

I would try to work with a mobile screening unit infront of your footsloggers.

Cheap Terminators or Thousand Sons both work well since they bring better saves to the table. Behind them you could put CSMs or Plague Marines so they get a cover save from the front rank.

Autocannon Havocks or Oblits will be needed to take out enemy transports and light tanks. Buried Meltaguns and Power Fists will be needed for the big stuff.

I would say cheap termies as the screen, but even then...
TS are not great screens though they look it, their S&P makes it so that if you want that cover, everyone is stuck moving as fast as them, which is either at normal pace or worse...

Let me expand upon my earlier statement:

I play non-mech CSM semi-regularly. I'm a good player, but when I play in this style I still lose to anyone with a half-decent army.

I'm of the opinion that this kind of army needs to be more of a gun-line than an assault force, because you're simply not going to make it to CC with enough models to count against most well-played armies.

If my opponent has lots of AP3 on the table, then terminators with a RAC do fairly well as a screen, and add to your rhino-busting powers as well.

This is one style of army where I prefer obliterators, because a 2+ save is your friend when you don't have any armor on the table, and making your heavy firepower harder to kill than your chumps is a good idea.

That being said, 8 havocs with 4 heavy weapons (I prefer missile launchers or autocannons) is not a bad way to go either.

I will echo Sanctjud in that TS screens are not that great because they limit the speed at which your army may move.

Hmm Well I thank everyone for the input after some looking around here as well as else where it does seem quite that everyone walking it really is just an uphill battle that is just made to loose. Ill have to resort to something else. Maybe I can muster some sort of a dread/defiler bash.

You may wish to try using the SW codex, if you're not adverse to some counts as. The availability of devastating cavalry, and cheap screening units (demons or some such?) then you may see some more success.

Yeah I was starting to lean towards just going for a counts as army with one of the SM dexs till such time as the CSM dex is a bit more.... Hmm the word escapes me but something more.

how about CSM bikes with Icon for deepstriking your termi squads and melta gun to help with AV.

Keep the squads small and cheap. I would consider demons too that way the enemy can't just focus fire on your termie's but will have many targets in their face while the troop choices try to catch up.

Load up on Oblits. forget the Havocs.

@Deuce11:
Small and 'cheap'(not really that cheap) = hiding or dead.
Hiding generally means not close enough to get better icon coverage.

Oblits are nice, but Havocs have their niche as well.

This reason i disagree with the comments that suggest you should run a gunline style army is that every other MEQ army can do it better. The CSM forte' is CC, so try to over whelm the opponent with cheap CC troops (Demons). Use DPs with wings, oblits and termicides to crack armor. Bikes to deliver the demons and termies. Two undivided, chaos glory, troops to hold objectives.

my 2 cents

Outflankers can be in rhinos that will greatly increase their efective range from the table edge. Also, while in reserve they are immune to being shot. The lack of reserve bonus roll is sad though.

However, I must agree that there are other armies that makes more sense of the tankfree alternatives.

@Mellon:
The op said no mech, which means no rhinos...I know the chosen can outflank with the rhino.

As for your second line: Tyranids

You've chosen the hard way to do things, but that's cool.

You'll want Chaos Space Marine squads with the Icon of Tzeentch, and a heavy weapon like a Lascannon.

You'll need to back these Chaos Space Marine squads up with Chosen, Raptors, and Havocs, all with Icons of Tzeentch.

You're going to need long ranged weapons, hence the Heavy Weapons in Troop squads. You're going to need protection, hence the Icon of Tzeentch, and you're going to need lots of bodies, then the Chaos Space Marines and Elite/Fast Attack/Heavy Support equivalents.

Yeah, I know. But his reason was "they die too easily before they do any good if I only bring a few". So I suggested an alternative solution to that problem.

Hmm, using chaos marine models count-as-tyranids... Now you got me thinking :-) Termies w heavy weapons for HG, assault weapons for TG. Power armors for warriors and their versions. Demons and cultists for the different little critters. Sorcerers for zoeys. DPs for HTs. Tanks or defilers for the big MCs. Great unclean one as Tervigon (I can totaly imagine him giving birth to demons in icky ways) That could definitely work.

I'd start with 9 oblits or some dev squads and 2 lash sorcerers. Maybe noise marines with blast masters as troops, also thousand sons ar egood for mid range fire power, and some small termicide combi melta deepstrikers for some more antitank.

Straight foot sloggers is tough for CSMs though...

@Mellon:
Not to sound confrontational, but your suggestion is compeletly opposite of the goal...how is it an alternate solution?

As for the count-as tyranids....you have given it alot of thought, , and my reference to Tyranids was not intended to go that route, but it sounds good .

@deFl0:
I would start with just 6 oblits.
Blast masters are painfully expensive.
Thousand Sons are painfully fail.
Termicides are hit or miss as normal.

Yes, it's tough

I forgot about raptors. They could deliver icons more effectively then bikers since bikers ARE so expensive Me thinks.

@Santjud: I agree Havocs have their niche. I am not confident they could hold down the heavy weapons need on their own. Maybe a mix of Havoc and Oblit would be best.
Termicides, high risk/high reward.

Deuce11 wrote:This reason i disagree with the comments that suggest you should run a gunline style army is that every other MEQ army can do it better. The CSM forte' is CC, so try to over whelm the opponent with cheap CC troops (Demons). Use DPs with wings, oblits and termicides to crack armor. Bikes to deliver the demons and termies. Two undivided, chaos glory, troops to hold objectives.

my 2 cents

This is correct. Chaos does not make for a good gunline, as it suffers in the range department. They function best in a <24" range, so if you come across an army like the Guard or Eldar or Tau who can put a lot of fire downrange, you will be shredded. Really, all Marines have this issue to some extent, although the loyalists have access to Rifleman dreads, Longs Fangs, etc.

I am thankful for the help and in put it it really does seem like useing the CSM dex is like playing 40k with one hand behinde your back. Ill just one of the other SM dexs until the csm dex gets an update. It would be fun to be able to throw in deamons and use the csm dex the way I would like to but it just isnt possible with how the book stands now. The other dexs can simple do it better.

A friend of mine has been winning tournaments with all-foot space wolves.

The SW get cheaper special weapons, cheaper powerfist champions (60 points for CSM powerfist champion vs. 43 for wolf guard w/ powerfist) and cheaper/better "havocs".

Eos Rahh wrote:I am thankful for the help and in put it it really does seem like useing the CSM dex is like playing 40k with one hand behinde your back. Ill just one of the other SM dexs until the csm dex gets an update. It would be fun to be able to throw in deamons and use the csm dex the way I would like to but it just isnt possible with how the book stands now. The other dexs can simple do it better.

No, please don't make this thread into another Chaos whinefest. The Codex is perfectly competitive (check the tournament winners so far this year, Chaos is not underrepresented), it's just not designed to be played like YOU want to play it. The SM books are better at running foot sloggers because they have better ranged firepower, but even then that's not using their book to the utmost.

Chaos is perfectly competitive. The problem is, it has one good cookie-cutter build, with 80% of the rest of the codex being extraneous/crap, and they've sucked out all the Legions and Chaos Gods fluff out of them. CSM is basically just Space Marines gone renegade, which is frequently better represented with a loyalist codex since renegades tend to have more modern gear.

If you are going to play with loyalist rules and want to include your daemons you could count them as (ironically enough) daemonhunter or witchhunter allies :-)

If I were to go all foot CSM I'd take Fabius Bile, a bunch of large squads of enhanced CSMs with icons of choice. Sprinkle in oblits, a lash sorcerer and whatever else. That would be the for fun list though -- I think dual lash sorc, oblit based gunline is about the best CSM have for foot slog.

The best loyalist books for representing Chaos are the Space Wolf or Blood Angels books.

Space Wolves are great for a Chaos book, and are in fact next in line for me when I finish painting up my 4000 points of Krieg. They can work for any psychic-heavy army (pre-Rubric Thousand Sons?), as they are the most powerful army in that regard at the moment. Their basic troops are great for representing Chaos marines, with the Grey Hunters as the grizzled and experienced badasses, and the headstrong Blood Claws as newer recruits trying to prove themselves. The Thunderwolf cavalry can be represented any number of ways, whether through Bloodcrusher models or Chaos Spawn (leaning towards Spawn myself, as the only bloodcrusher model I like is the fantasy hero one, and that would be very expensive and have no variety). The Fenris wolves can represent any number of things, from crazed cultists throwing themselves at the enemy, to any demons you may want to represent.

With the Blood Angels, you have Daemon Prince-like models in Sanguinor, Astorath and Mephiston. With everyone going berserk and ignoring pain, they would be very good at representing any Khornate legion. Their penchant for fast attacks and assault marines also makes them easily work as Night Lords or Alpha Legion.

^ Yes to all that.

Just make sure the opponent knows what's going on .

Me... I use loyalist rules for my Chaos Biker army.
I'm using Juggernaught/Bloodcrushers as attack bikes

If you are going to make your poor CSMs run up the entire table, then you need to buy them some time. I would suggest Lash-Princes, piles of Lesser Daemons, and lots of Raptors, or even Bikers. Get two units that can book it up the board. Raptors or Bikers is up to you, but whatever you use needs to make the run. Once you arrive, pour Daemons into you opponent's lines. Just as many as you can pack into your list. Daemons should be coming out of their ears.

While they are dealing with that hot mess, run your guys up the field, and get into position. Use your Lash-Princes to keep assault units away from your guys, and push shooty units out of LoS. Once you get to where you want to go, start Lashing shooty units into assault range, or keep assault units on a treadmill.

This is going to be a tight squeeze at 1,500, but you should be able to get some min sized FA choices up the field, and have a pair of decent troop choices backed up by the princes. Then just take all the leftover points in Daemons.