Newcomer's First 2,000 Lizardmen

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Eyclonus**

Hello Everybody,
I'm an experienced 40k player who's starting fantasy, I like the lizardmen models, and the fluff behind them.
So far I have 1,995 points but I'm not sure if its a good build's worth of points

Lord
Slann Mage-Priest - General/BSB
3 Discplines of the Ancients
- Focus of Mystery
- The Focused Rumination
- Unfathomable Presence
Plaque of Protection
Sun Standard Of Chotec

Hero
Skink Priest
Level 2
Ancient Stegadon w/ Engine of the Gods
Dispel Scroll x2

Core
20 Saurus - Spears + Full Command

20 Saurus - Spears + Full Command

10 Skink Skirmishers

10 Skink Skirmishers

Special
20 Temple Guard - Full Command + Sword Of The Hornet + Totem Of Prophecy

The Saurus units are my "Bricks", I plan to use them as a solid center with the AncSteg w/ EotG between them buffing them, the Skinks are on the flanks, I hope to use them to either kite slower enemies or to race up and take out warmachine crews.
I plan to deploy the Slann behind the Steg on either the right or the left depending on my opponent's deployment.
Currently my opponents will be either VC with Vlad leading them, High Elves with that special character on a Griffon and Dark Elves being led by Malekeith on a black dragon with tiny block of Core units supporting.

I'm guessing the more experienced of you can see holes in this, but then again thats why I posted it here; to get your criticisms on my approach to army construction.

**plusARGON**

Well, you are off to a decent start. There are a few minor points that can be easily addressed.

First, since the Slann is in the TG, you don't need the PoP. He is going to be fine, almost untouched especially if you play the unit well. What you do need is Cupped Hands of the Old Ones. Drop the Plaque and give him that. You can find more points for this by moving the SSoC to the TG standard and dropping the Totem (the unit is ItP when with the Slann, you really don't need it). Unfathomable Presence is okay, I would suggest either Becalming Cogitation or Soul of Stone more strongly (but UP is still damn good). The Plaque of Dominion also works (but drop a Discipline).

Second, swap a scroll on the priest for the Diadem. You will want it.

Third, twenty spears is nice; going eighteen instead makes the unit six wide for more attacks without reducing the units staying power too much. Either that, or go up one in each and run 7x3. It's a bit harder to get all of them into BtB but is dead killy.

Fourth, the TG could really be only sixteen at these points. SotH isn't totally needed, either but keep it if you like it.

Finally, you might want to squeeze in an other hammer. The EotG can only cover one, which should be the TG. Some CoC or four Terradons would do this well. The Terradons are also good for warmachine hunting.

**Eyclonus**

I wasn't sure what to do with Revered Guardian as any Challenges issued will be by characters that have better Initiative so he should at least attempt to hurt them.
Just how dangerous are Challenges anyway? Also do I choose who responds or do they? I don't have the Red Slab yet so I'm just playing by ear on this.

Also your post: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/280771.page#1370209 made me realize about changing the Discplines for anti-magic.

I'm tempted to have a Skink Priest w/CoF and Rod of the Storm to flap behind, use the rod on a warmachine crew or other lurkers to guarantee Uranon's T-Bolt going off and use channeling to nail them from behind with Slann's spells.

But that sucks away from the points I desperately need for another hammer. I think 4 Terradons is the way to go as they're cheaper and flying dinosaurs always =

THE COOLZZ

**plusARGON**

Challenges can be a pain. The Reverend Guardian can take them pretty well, using a sword and shield (which is what they should be using most of the time) it has a 2+ armour save. On the cheep VotFF works pretty well for it's points (and doesn't negate the HW-Shield bonus) and makes attacks magical and poisoned. The BBoC is always a good option, too. So long as the Reverend doesn't get killed, he can easily cut down an enemy champ. Characters are the real issue but unit champs aren't going to kill them anyhoo. Also, if the enemy issues a challenge, they are picking the opponent.

A CoF Priest is fantastic with a Slann. A fly-Priest can literally double the range for MM. I would take a scroll on it, rather than the Rod. Being "one use only" is dragsville. Having that extra bound is nice but you are pretty much never going to get it off (trust me) and there are better ways ro soak DD from the enemy. If you choose this route, taking another Priest is a good idea. A scroll-Diadem would be good but I would also suggest a Cube Priest. Both are fine options.

**RiTides**

plusARGON wrote:Also, if the enemy issues a challenge, they are picking the opponent.

Is this true? I thought you could choose who to accept the challenge with? I've had this done to me many times now... if the challenger gets to choose, that's good news to me

**Kirbinator**

The person who gets challenged gets to pick, assuming there are multiple models who can accept. Do you think anyone would voluntarily ask for the Dark Elf Assassin to fight in a challenge?

**RiTides**

Ah, that's what I thought :-/ Ah well...

**Airmaniac**

The overall idea of the list is pretty good, but there are a lot of points being spent on useless upgrades / models.

Let's start with your primary unit, the Temple Guard and the Slann Mage Priest.

First of all, the Slann Mage Priest doesn't really need the Divine Plaque of Protection as he will be in the Temple Guard unit. The Unfathomable Presence isn't absolutely needed as well, as you already have a decent amount of Magic protection (6 Dispel Dice and 2 Dispel Scrolls). Focus of Mystery is nice to have, but not necessarily better then the Plaque of Tepok (which costs a lot less). The Sun Standard of Chotec isn't a necessity in the unit, but it is nice to have if your opponents shoot your big unit a lot.
Other upgrades to consider on your Slann Mage Priest are: The Becalming Cogitation, Cupped Hands of the Old Ones & Bane Head.

Your Temple Guard unit is too big for a 2000 points army. You don't really need more than 16 Temple Guard, as this will give you the full Rank Bonus. I'd drop the Sword of the Hornet and the Totem of Prophecy. The Musician isn't really necessary either.

Your Skink Priest on Engine of the Gods is great the way he is. I would actually advise against taking the Diadem of Power on him, as taking it will reduce your pressure in the Magic Phase (less Power Dice). If the Plague of Tepok isn't being used yet, this is a great guy to give it too (so that you always get a useful Spell). One of the Dispel Scrolls could be moved over to the Slann Mage Priest to make it fit into the Skink Priest's Magic Item allowance.

Skink Skirmishers are always great units to have. Minimum sized, no upgrades, exactly the way they should be.

The Saurus Warrior units are decent, though they will probably never win their points back. Watch out for flanking units with these guys.
Personally, I'm not a fan of SCR blocks of Saurus Warriors. All the rank filling models are expensive (points wise) while not contributing much to combats. Their Standard (which isn't really that hard to capture) makes the unit worth even more Victory Points for your opponent.
I like Saurus Warrior units of 12 models (6x2) without command. This gives them the maximum amount of S4 attacks, while still being a relatively cheap unit which can be lost without giving up a very big amount of Victory Points.
I suppose you could use the SCR blocks of Saurus Warriors in this setup though, as you can deploy in a refused flank, with your Temple Guard units holding your flank. This will make flanking your Saurus Warriors a lot harder, which will make beating them in combat very hard.

Your army is relatively slow and lacks some units that can go after Warmachines and other shooting units early. I'd really try to squeeze at least one (preferably two) minimum sized units of Terradon Riders in there.

Hope this helps!

**plusARGON**

Airmaniac wrote:Focus of Mystery is nice to have, but not necessarily better then the Plaque of Tepok (which costs a lot less).

Not totally true. The lower cost has its price. Not having an entire Lore can be a drag. You loose some versatility that having the whole Lore gives you in doing this.

Airmaniac wrote:The Sun Standard of Chotec isn't a necessity in the unit, but it is nice to have if your opponents shoot your big unit a lot.

Most armies have some form of shooting. The TG unit is going to get blasted by that most of the time. SSoC makes it so that there aren't as many casualties are taken.

Airmaniac wrote:Your Skink Priest on Engine of the Gods is great the way he is. I would actually advise against taking the Diadem of Power on him, as taking it will reduce your pressure in the Magic Phase (less Power Dice).

The Diadem is for unused dice. Fewer dice shouldn't be an issue since the Slann can bring four additional dice with Focused Rumination (in some cases). The Diadem doesn't have to be used every turn, either.

Airmaniac wrote:I like Saurus Warrior units of 12 models (6x2) without command. This gives them the maximum amount of S4 attacks, while still being a relatively cheap unit which can be lost without giving up a very big amount of Victory Points.

Twelve spears has always disappointed me, save when used as a hammer. The problem is that once they get charged, which is what should happen, they are going take casualties. This means they aren't going to have as many attacks to make up for the losses. Without any SCR they are going to loose and potentially get run down. That 150-some-odd points isn't going to be made back killing four or five enemies. Eighteen and a FC gives the unit the ability to take on most units and has decent staying power. If you want to run MSU take twelve HW with a musician and lots of them. It can actually works pretty well.
Breaking and loosing a standard can suck, a lot, but it's not that hard to get them back (especially with the power of Lizardmen).

**Eyclonus**

Thanks for your advice, I'm currently making a major re-write, but I've decided to push towards completely controlling the magic phase. Having read other threads and forums its seems to me that the Lizardmen either have the token scroll caddy and simply avoid magic, or they take the magic phase by the horns and slam its' face into the bricks.

I'm going to cut the the TG and Saurus units down a bit, drop a few magic items and knock the hypnotoad to 3 disciplines.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stuck with choosing the following:
5-6 Cold One Cavalry
Or
2 units of 3-4 Terradon riders

**RiTides**

Both of those choices are very cool... if you can afford 2 separate units of terradons (money-wise), I'd go with that

**plusARGON**

Terradons are great at getting to and being where you need them fast with Flying. Two units of four would be pretty sick. I have never run that but it sounds like a good idea. You may want to take at least one unit of three regardless.

CoC are going to have a lot more hitting power. If you plan on focusing on magic really heavily then they might get in the way a bit. Five with a musician is okay, better if you drop a Vet in there. Six with a musician works best as a hammer.

If you are considering going low Warriors and high TG, you may still want to go with the CoC over two units of Terradons.

**Eyclonus**

Alright this is my revision. I've cut things down and I think its going to make it painful if I don't play cautiously and pick who will charge and who gets charged.

Slann Mage-Priest w/ Cupped Hands, Plaque of Dom and Curse Charm of Tepok
- The Focused Rumination
- Focus of Mystery
- Soul of Stone

Skink Priest w/ Level 2, Dispel Scroll and Diadem of Power
- Ancient Stegadon w/ EotG

Core
15 Saurus + Spears and Full Command

15 Saurus + Spears and Full command

10 Skink Skirmishers

10 Skink Skirmishers

Special
16 Temple Guard w/ Full Command, Sun Standard of Chotec and Venom of the Firefly Frog

5 Cold One Cavalry w/ Musician 10

All up its 11 points below 2,000 so I can stick something else in. Is it worth dropping the Ancient Stegadon to bring in a CoF Skink Priest and a Cube Priest?

**plusARGON**

It looks pretty good. Watch out for cannon and other warmachines, they are going to give you trouble without Terradons.
Also, since you are already pretty much laughing in the face of the enemies magic phase, the Discard 6s Discipline might be even better than Soul of Stone.
As for the two-priest vs. EotG, it's really up to you. Both are great options. The EotG gives you a super solid second hammer to work with. Just don't expect it to live through many battles (people really hate it)! Both options are going to give you [essentially] the same amount of dice but with the EotG you have, well, an EotG!

The last eleven points can be eaten up by swapping the VotFF for the BBoC.

**Eyclonus**

Thanks for your advice PlusArgon.
Alright I've narrowed everything down to two choices. Plain text is the "core" of the list, Red is option 1, Blue is Option 2.

Lord
Slann Mage-Priest 485
3 Disciplines of the Old Ones
- The Focused Rumination
- Focus of Mystery
- Becalming Cogitation
Plaque of Dominion
Curse Charm of Tepok
Cupped Hands of the Old Ones

Heroes
Skink Priest 440
Level 2
Ancient Stegadon w/ EotG
Dispel Scroll
Diadem of Power

Skink Priest 140
Level 2
- Cube of Darkness

Core -
15 Saurus 204
- Spears
- Full Command

15 Saurus 204
- Spears
- Full command

10 Skink Skirmishers 70

10 Skink Skirmishers 70

Special -
16 Temple Guard 341 351
- Full Command
- Sun Standard of Chotec
- Venom of the Firefly Frog
- Burning Blade of Chotec

5 Cold One Cavalry 185
- Musician

Rare
Ancient Stegadon 275

Red Gives me 2 line breakers with good damage potential inside 12", along with a level of control of the magic phase that is the signature of Lizardmen.
Blue gives me more units to form a solid block with, and allows me to withstand casualties a little better but is offset with my EoTG Stegadon being an easy target.

**RiTides**

Hmm... of the two, I like the blue option better, since I don't think you need that extra skink priest. Plus I love the burning blade of chotec

Does the slann need the plaque of dominion? I could be mixing up my wargear now, but if he's going inside temple guard, he might not need it. Is he no longer a BSB? I'd keep that on him if you dropped it.

I like that it seems you're fitting in an extra unit than the original list. I always like to fit in as many as I can, rather than load up on upgrades.

I'd be tempted to see if you could fit in a stegadon instead of the cold one cav for effectiveness' sake... since it'd give you two big stompy things rather than one. But I love CoC, so it's cool to see them in there

and I think their speed will pay off with such a slow center of saurus and temple guard!

**plusARGON**

Your Slann is costed wrong. He should be 515 points with the kit you have.

Personally, I think the blue list is better overall.

**Eyclonus**

Plaque of Dominion is the Banner that forces enemy wizards to take stupidity tests.

Your right though, Red went a little overboard on magic. I'd like to add this little correction to the Red:

Hero
Skink Chief - 380
-Ancient Stegadon
-Stegadon Warspear

He replaces both the Skink Priest and the Ancient Stegadon in the Rare slot. It also allows the Revered Guardian to take the Burning Blade of Chotec

EDIT:
WHOOOPS!! Your right, I'm not using any sort of an army builder so I'm missing these little thingies. Thanks.

EDIT 2: After going back through my list I'd say ignore the Red entirely as it puts me 224 points over the limit. I suppose I could just make this 2,500 point list instead. I'm not actually restricted here but I'd like to use it as a sort of Buyer's Guide to Lizardmen kind of thingy.

EDIT 3: 2,491
Lord
Slann Mage-Priest - 515
3 Disciplines of the Old Ones
- The Focused Rumination
- Focus of Mystery
- Becalming Cogitation
Plaque of Dominion
Curse Charm of Tepok
Cupped Hands of the Old Ones

Heroes
Skink Priest - 440
Level 2
Ancient Stegadon w/ EotG
Dispel Scroll
Diadem of Power

Skink Chief - 380
Stegadon Warspear
Ancient Stegadon

Core
18 Saurus - 240
- Spears
- Full Command

18 Saurus - 240
- Spears
- Full command

10 Skink Skirmishers 70

10 Skink Skirmishers 70

Special
16 Temple Guard - 351
- Full Command
- Sun Standard of Chotec
- Burning Blade of Chotec

5 Cold One Cavalry 185
Musician

Hopefully this is the best of both options... But thats what you guys are here for... Proving me Wrong/Right (Circle or otherwise indicate preferred option).

**RiTides**

I like this list a lot. It's got a rock-hard center, and some heavy-hitters, too.

If I were taking lizardmen, I'd be going with an all-skink force, with one of the central units being the skink chief on ancient stegadon with the war spear. He is SO COOL

I haven't been able to figure out why people prefer musicians over standards in their cold ones. plusARGON has explained it before, but it's still greek to me

You're right, I was thinking of the plaque of protection... However, I would personally shave down that Slann a little bit. The Plaque and Curse Charm add 70 points to his cost! That's another 10 skink skirmishers, or use your leftover points, too, and it's a razordon/salamander. I think you've got magic defense handled with the diadem and becalming cogitation, and could use those points to address other weaknesses of the list.

**Airmaniac**

RiTides wrote:I haven't been able to figure out why people prefer musicians over standards in their cold ones. plusARGON has explained it before, but it's still greek to me

I think the idea is this:
Cold One Cavalry have Fear, which means that any unit they beat in combat (that isn't Immune to Psychology, doesn't cause Fear and doesn't cause Terror) needs to roll Insane Courage on their Break Test. In case of a draw, the Musician is as good as the Standard (both make you win by 1). In the case you win the combat, the Standard won't matter as the opponent already needs Insane Courage. The Standard only helps you when your Cold One Cavalry lose the combat, in which case you have less of a negative modifier on your Break Test.

Other advantages of the Musician over the Standard Bearer are:
-A Standard Bearer costs twice the points of a Musician.
-A Standard can be captured, in which case you give up 100 VP's.
-A Musician gives you +1 Leadership on regrouping checks.

While the theory is sound, there is an obvious flaw: almost any unit that the Cold One Cavalry can't reliably beat, is Immune to Psychology or causes Fear / Terror.

**Eyclonus**

Well I've just finished a battle with the above list against VC.
I took Lore of light and my Skink Priest rolled a 1 and 6...
He took Manfred, a combat Vamp, a magic Vamp, Scroll caddy Necro on Corpse cart, 1 Ghoul unit, 2 Skeleton units, Corpse Cart again, 1 unit each of Black and Blood Knights and capping it off a Varghulf.
We called it a draw after turn 4 as it was getting late. I say that its a shame I can't take more than one Stegadon Warspear in an army.

The Slann's magic went.... poorly... I got 1 miscast which resulted in Manfred saving a hit and ending the magic phase. Stupidity field failed and none of the vamp's rolled six's when targeted, so many times I rolled 2s when I was trying to get Gaze of Light off. Also due to bad terrain and planning with deployment I lost the EotG in turn 2, and because of the bad deployment the Chief's Stegadon only got impact hits in 3rd and 4th turns. Which was fully sick when it happened.
Definitely a loss if the game had continued as the end of Turn 4 was marked by the Chief, his crew getting mauled by ghouls and his trusty steed getting cut down fleeing from a mounted Manfred.

What have I learnt? Skink Skirmishers devastate small units of black knights, but Ghouls will crump 'em hard. Saurus units will hold the line for ages even when down to only the champion. Musicians are great. CoC are the perfect counter to VC spamming Raise Dead+Invocation of Nehket to create several units of 20+ zombies every turn.

EDIT: OOPs I forgot the link http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2696

I also found this link which was a massive facepalm for me as I reckon I would've done better with the Lore of Metal or Lore of Fire in this match.

**Red_Zeke**

Airmaniac wrote:
Cold One Cavalry have Fear, which means that any unit they beat in combat (that isn't Immune to Psychology, doesn't cause Fear and doesn't cause Terror) needs to roll Insane Courage on their Break Test. In case of a draw, the Musician is as good as the Standard (both make you win by 1). In the case you win the combat, the Standard won't matter as the opponent already needs Insane Courage. The Standard only helps you when your Cold One Cavalry lose the combat, in which case you have less of a negative modifier on your Break Test.

Just a note: They're only on insane courage if you outnumber them when you win with your fear causers. I assume you know this, but your post doesn't mention it. Cryonicleech made the same mistake some time ago.

Eyclonus wrote:

I also found this link which was a massive facepalm for me as I reckon I would've done better with the Lore of Metal or Lore of Fire in this match.

Lore selection is totally going to be army dependent. If he's bringing knights, metal gets pretty nice, but otherwise, the default magic missile is way better than fireball, and cleansing flare are pretty sweet against undead that like to spam zombie raises around you. It's a gametime call once you see the army.

**Airmaniac**

Red_Zeke wrote:
Airmaniac wrote:
Cold One Cavalry have Fear, which means that any unit they beat in combat (that isn't Immune to Psychology, doesn't cause Fear and doesn't cause Terror) needs to roll Insane Courage on their Break Test. In case of a draw, the Musician is as good as the Standard (both make you win by 1). In the case you win the combat, the Standard won't matter as the opponent already needs Insane Courage. The Standard only helps you when your Cold One Cavalry lose the combat, in which case you have less of a negative modifier on your Break Test.

Just a note: They're only on insane courage if you outnumber them when you win with your fear causers. I assume you know this, but your post doesn't mention it. Cryonicleech made the same mistake some time ago.

Yes, I know about them having to outnumber their opponent as well. I probably should've mentioned it in my post. It didn't seem that important to me (as I think it's pretty obvious that adding a Musician is a waste of points).

**plusARGON**

What Airmaniac said about the musician is accurate. In short, it is more of a help than a standard, costs less and won't give up undue VPs.

Also, I have read that article on LO; it's very good for helping you pick your magical lore until you get the pattern down.

The list looks pretty solid. Better luck in your next game!

**RiTides**

Thanks for the reasoning for/against the musician, guys

.

So how about shaving that slann for another unit? It helps to have more options, especially if your opponent is raising things out of nowhere...

**Eyclonus**

Well he was raising them for 2 turns but after the Cold Ones and a saurus unit kept trumping them and the fact my dispel dice kept screwing his spells unless he took 3D6 for each spell kinda stopped that and he turned to using that Magic Missile and occasionally scaring me with Summon Undead Horde in my backlines. Or using the Hand of Dust item. I swear that thing is broken being reusable, why can't we can't have a reusable blood statuette of spite or Cupped hands of the old ones.

**plusARGON**

Eyclonus wrote:Or using the Hand of Dust item. I swear that thing is broken being reusable, why can't we can't have a reusable blood statuette of spite or Cupped hands of the old ones.

EXACTLY!

The only advice I can give you about facing Undead armies is to choose the Slann's Lore according to what the enemy has. If there are a lot of knights (or any really) or a Black Coach, go with Metal. Commandment of Brass and Rule of Burning Iron/Spirit of the Forge will make short work of those units and four can deal with the block infantry pretty well. If they don't have much of that garbage, Shadow is a good option. Pit of Shades wrecks the low I blocks and Creeping Death is nice because of their low T. My personal favourite Lore is Beasts. I have great luck with it.

**Eyclonus**

Alright looks like my next match up is against high elves, so Pit of Shadows is out. Metal instead?

**plusARGON**

Metal will really hurt knights and other things with a lot of armour, defiantly a good choice. Beasts can help if there is a dragon. Death is ALWAYS a good option, too, especially if there are a lot of block infantry.

**Eyclonus**

He doesn't have dragons, but he will run the special character on the griffon. But it seems he's been sidetracked and won't have his units finished for a long while. In the mean time I get a Dark Elf opponent, he's got a hydra, Cold One Knights, Bolt Throwers and a Sorceress on a Dark Pegasus.

I'm guessing Beasts will let me screw with the Hydra and the Pegasus, but metal will be good for breaking those Cold One Knights.