this could be bad

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**youbedead**

http://www.kpho.com/politics/22960878/detail.html

PHOENIX -- The Arizona House and Senate will soon vote on proposals that would abolish the concealed-carry weapons permit law.
The votes are expected to take placed before the end of next week.
If the law passes, Arizona will be one of three states that allows gun owners to carry concealed weapons without a permit.
Only Alaska and Vermont currently do not require concealed-carry weapons permits.
"It's the second amendment. The second amendment says we have the right to keep and carry arms. The founding fathers wanted no regulation in that,” said Ken Logan, the range manager at Shooter’s World in Phoenix.
He supports the state proposal, despite the fact that it could hurt his business.
Right now, potential owners must complete an eight hour training class, which Shooter’s World offers, to obtain their weapons permits.
Logan said gun owners usually seek out training, regardless of legal requirements.
“You're responsible for that bullet wherever it goes,” he said. “You need to know how to use that firearm before you carry it.”
His customers weren’t convinced it would be safe to get rid of the training requirement for concealed weapons permits.
"I think should they keep the permits going,” said Justin Ivy, a lifelong gun owner who said he learned a lot during the required training class.
“You have to know how to use it,” said Dennis Fiorillo, a gun owner who also said he benefited training classes. “You know have to know how to use it safely so nobody gets hurt.”

now I fully support my 2nd amendment rights but this could be dangerous. To get a CC permit you have to take test to prove your ability to make decisions and your ability to handle firearms.
If this were to become law then anyone could carry a gun. In fact there is also a bill that would not require the gun to registered either good luck trying to solve that murder case when the guns th eonly evidence

**sebster**

I predict this will change nothing on any meaningful level.

I predict that will not stop anti-gun and pro-gun lobbies arguing about it, and down the track using charts to prove that crime and/or violence dropped or increased dramatically, despite there being an imperceptible change. Meanwhile the actual causes of crime and violence will carry on without anyone challenging them.

**Fateweaver**

youbedead wrote:http://www.kpho.com/politics/22960878/detail.html

PHOENIX -- The Arizona House and Senate will soon vote on proposals that would abolish the concealed-carry weapons permit law.
The votes are expected to take placed before the end of next week.
If the law passes, Arizona will be one of three states that allows gun owners to carry concealed weapons without a permit.
Only Alaska and Vermont currently do not require concealed-carry weapons permits.
"It's the second amendment. The second amendment says we have the right to keep and carry arms. The founding fathers wanted no regulation in that,” said Ken Logan, the range manager at Shooter’s World in Phoenix.
He supports the state proposal, despite the fact that it could hurt his business.
Right now, potential owners must complete an eight hour training class, which Shooter’s World offers, to obtain their weapons permits.
Logan said gun owners usually seek out training, regardless of legal requirements.
“You're responsible for that bullet wherever it goes,” he said. “You need to know how to use that firearm before you carry it.”
His customers weren’t convinced it would be safe to get rid of the training requirement for concealed weapons permits.
"I think should they keep the permits going,” said Justin Ivy, a lifelong gun owner who said he learned a lot during the required training class.
“You have to know how to use it,” said Dennis Fiorillo, a gun owner who also said he benefited training classes. “You know have to know how to use it safely so nobody gets hurt.”

now I fully support my 2nd amendment rights but this could be dangerous. To get a CC permit you have to take test to prove your ability to make decisions and your ability to handle firearms.
If this were to become law then anyone could carry a gun. In fact there is also a bill that would not require the gun to registered either good luck trying to solve that murder case when the guns th eonly evidence

Hmm. In Mn I only had to prove I could not shoot my toe off by taking a training class. Had no psych evaluation to determine my decision making skills (though if you ever been in a nuthouse or under an OOP you can't get a permit to even buy).

I wish Mn would do that. Damn $100 every 4 years to prove I can handle it (and if I'm 30 days or more past due on renewing I need to retake the training class for an extra $125 because apparently that permit allows me to remember how to shoot (my old age has addled my memory but I think I can go more than 30 days without forgetting how to shoot).

**youbedead**

Fateweaver wrote:
youbedead wrote:http://www.kpho.com/politics/22960878/detail.html

PHOENIX -- The Arizona House and Senate will soon vote on proposals that would abolish the concealed-carry weapons permit law.
The votes are expected to take placed before the end of next week.
If the law passes, Arizona will be one of three states that allows gun owners to carry concealed weapons without a permit.
Only Alaska and Vermont currently do not require concealed-carry weapons permits.
"It's the second amendment. The second amendment says we have the right to keep and carry arms. The founding fathers wanted no regulation in that,” said Ken Logan, the range manager at Shooter’s World in Phoenix.
He supports the state proposal, despite the fact that it could hurt his business.
Right now, potential owners must complete an eight hour training class, which Shooter’s World offers, to obtain their weapons permits.
Logan said gun owners usually seek out training, regardless of legal requirements.
“You're responsible for that bullet wherever it goes,” he said. “You need to know how to use that firearm before you carry it.”
His customers weren’t convinced it would be safe to get rid of the training requirement for concealed weapons permits.
"I think should they keep the permits going,” said Justin Ivy, a lifelong gun owner who said he learned a lot during the required training class.
“You have to know how to use it,” said Dennis Fiorillo, a gun owner who also said he benefited training classes. “You know have to know how to use it safely so nobody gets hurt.”

now I fully support my 2nd amendment rights but this could be dangerous. To get a CC permit you have to take test to prove your ability to make decisions and your ability to handle firearms.
If this were to become law then anyone could carry a gun. In fact there is also a bill that would not require the gun to registered either good luck trying to solve that murder case when the guns th eonly evidence

Hmm. In Mn I only had to prove I could not shoot my toe off by taking a training class. Had no psych evaluation to determine my decision making skills (though if you ever been in a nuthouse or under an OOP you can't get a permit to even buy).

I wish Mn would do that. Damn $100 every 4 years to prove I can handle it (and if I'm 30 days or more past due on renewing I need to retake the training class for an extra $125 because apparently that permit allows me to remember how to shoot (my old age has addled my memory but I think I can go more than 30 days without forgetting how to shoot).

Well you have to make sure you don't shoot the guy standing 10 feet to the right of your intended target, and that you won't shoot someone because they bumped into you.
Honestly i'm more afraid of losing registration for all weapons sold in AZ. That could directly effect polices ability to investigate shootings.

**Fateweaver**

youbedead wrote:
Fateweaver wrote:
youbedead wrote:http://www.kpho.com/politics/22960878/detail.html

PHOENIX -- The Arizona House and Senate will soon vote on proposals that would abolish the concealed-carry weapons permit law.
The votes are expected to take placed before the end of next week.
If the law passes, Arizona will be one of three states that allows gun owners to carry concealed weapons without a permit.
Only Alaska and Vermont currently do not require concealed-carry weapons permits.
"It's the second amendment. The second amendment says we have the right to keep and carry arms. The founding fathers wanted no regulation in that,” said Ken Logan, the range manager at Shooter’s World in Phoenix.
He supports the state proposal, despite the fact that it could hurt his business.
Right now, potential owners must complete an eight hour training class, which Shooter’s World offers, to obtain their weapons permits.
Logan said gun owners usually seek out training, regardless of legal requirements.
“You're responsible for that bullet wherever it goes,” he said. “You need to know how to use that firearm before you carry it.”
His customers weren’t convinced it would be safe to get rid of the training requirement for concealed weapons permits.
"I think should they keep the permits going,” said Justin Ivy, a lifelong gun owner who said he learned a lot during the required training class.
“You have to know how to use it,” said Dennis Fiorillo, a gun owner who also said he benefited training classes. “You know have to know how to use it safely so nobody gets hurt.”

now I fully support my 2nd amendment rights but this could be dangerous. To get a CC permit you have to take test to prove your ability to make decisions and your ability to handle firearms.
If this were to become law then anyone could carry a gun. In fact there is also a bill that would not require the gun to registered either good luck trying to solve that murder case when the guns th eonly evidence

Hmm. In Mn I only had to prove I could not shoot my toe off by taking a training class. Had no psych evaluation to determine my decision making skills (though if you ever been in a nuthouse or under an OOP you can't get a permit to even buy).

I wish Mn would do that. Damn $100 every 4 years to prove I can handle it (and if I'm 30 days or more past due on renewing I need to retake the training class for an extra $125 because apparently that permit allows me to remember how to shoot (my old age has addled my memory but I think I can go more than 30 days without forgetting how to shoot).

Well you have to make sure you don't shoot the guy standing 10 feet to the right of your intended target, and that you won't shoot someone because they bumped into you.
Honestly i'm more afraid of losing registration for all weapons sold in AZ. That could directly effect polices ability to investigate shootings.

Police and BCA in MN handle gun crimes just fine as far as tracking and we aren't required to register. None of mine are. Then again, most gun crimes in this state are perpetrated by morons who leave a trail of evidence so clear a blind wiener dog could follow it.

**Commander Endova**

I'm about as pro second amendment as it gets. But I agree that this could be a problematic bill. I disprove of people being denied firearms, but I approve of them having to demonstrate the intelligence and competence to handle lethal weaponry in an appropriate manner.

Which is why it pisses me off that service members 18, 19 and 20 year old service members can't get concealed carry permits in most places. But that's a completely different subject, and I don't want to hijack this thread.

**warpcrafter**

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=18

Criminals are cowards at heart. If they see the odds are against them and they might get shot, that job at Taco Bell starts to look better all the time...

**sebster**

warpcrafter wrote:Criminals are cowards at heart.

You're thinking of Batman.

Meanwhile, the link you provide is one of millions available that prove concealed carry leads to less crime/more crime and less violence/more violence. It's all partisan crap, if you go looking for patterns and choose you're time periods carefully you'll find whatever result you want. Objective reviews have found negligible effect - turns out compared to poverty, employment opportunities and drugs guns don't mean much either way.

**Frazzled**

Commander Endova wrote:I'm about as pro second amendment as it gets. But I agree that this could be a problematic bill. I disprove of people being denied firearms, but I approve of them having to demonstrate the intelligence and competence to handle lethal weaponry in an appropriate manner.

Which is why it pisses me off that service members 18, 19 and 20 year old service members can't get concealed carry permits in most places. But that's a completely different subject, and I don't want to hijack this thread.

You don't need concealed carry specialty if everyone can carry.

In light of the failed state next door, its ok. Phoenix is the kidnapping capital of the US thanks to the federal government not protecting US citizens.

**Tyyr**

sebster wrote:I predict this will change nothing on any meaningful level.

I predict that will not stop anti-gun and pro-gun lobbies arguing about it, and down the track using charts to prove that crime and/or violence dropped or increased dramatically, despite there being an imperceptible change. Meanwhile the actual causes of crime and violence will carry on without anyone challenging them.

Pretty much total agreement.

Concealed carry laws are not particularly onerous. Apply, take a class, and unless you're a convicted criminal or legally insane you're likely to get one. Given the penalties for carrying a weapon without a license your average person will look at the risk/reward and decide that if it matters that much to them they'll get the license. Criminals and idiots weren't likely getting licenses anyways to begin with.

So in other words responsible gun owners will continue to be responsible. Idiots and criminals will continue to be idiots and criminals. Total change, not much. Sort of like how gun registration only gets law abiding citizens to register their guns.

**WarOne**

DEY TOOK ERR GUNNNNNNZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately, I do not support the measure. Concealed handguns should be licensed. People who walk around with them who should get longer jail time when and if they pull that gun out during another crime they commit.

**KingCracker**

Thats why Im a fan of open carry. If someone has a sidearm on their hip, or somewhere just as easily to see, theres no way a crook is going to think its a good idea to try and rob them.

**Soladrin**

Why do you people even need guns...?

edit: sorry for the over generilization(SP?) but from here it looks like your gun laws spawn more problems then they solve.. that being none as far as I know.

**generalgrog**

Soladrin wrote:Why do you people even need guns...?

Uh Oh.......

GG

**CitizenPrime**

If you don't know, then you don't need one.

(Cuz a sword won't fit in my glove compartment. duh.)

**Soladrin**

I'm being serious here, for what reason are you arming yourself? I've never gotten a straight anwser to this question and was usually flamed away for it.

**WarOne**

Soladrin wrote:I'm being serious here, for what reason are you arming yourself? I've never gotten a straight anwser to this question and was usually flamed away for it.

You are yourself because you have rationalized one of several things:

You are in danger. That is a broad category from a dangerous neighborhood to a rise in local crime to a zombie apocalypse in the maiking. If you feel the need to protect yourself and have advanced warning, you will get a gun if you can afford it and maybe join a group of like minded individuals.

Street cred. You get a weapon cause it is cool and makes you badass to those whose perception revolves around a social structure where violence has become an inherent part of the culture you live in. It may serve a functional value, but it is secondary to the real reason you got it: to make you look cool.

Practical reasons. Your use it in the line of work, whether it is as a cop or as a drug dealer. If things go bad, it becomes the last resort of defense in a do or die situation.

Homicidal rationale: This is complicated because it means you intend to harm someone, which could be for a broad category of reasons which may of evolved from another reason, such as believing you are in danger. An armed militia who becomes paranoid takes that dangerous leap from believing they are in danger to taking matters into their own hand by seeking out what is threatening them and eliminating the threat. Less sane rationales could be used in this context as well, but that goes down a path in which your own self destruction is assured.

Does that answer your question?

**Soladrin**

Not really, there wasn't any reason in there that isn't... useless and mostly made by the fact that the guns are there in the first place...

Oh and aren't Cops issued their weapons? If they have to buy their own guns that's pretty pathetic imo...

**WarOne**

You want to know why then that people use guns to kill each other, as the gun represents a pinnacle in the attempt one human makes to kill another for reasons nature itself does not reveal why we are not a hippy love paradise yet?

And did you ask why we buy guns or why do we obtain guns?

EDIT:
When my father was a correction officer, correction officers of NYC have the option to but their gun at the end of their service. They don't actually get to keep their pieces.

**jp400**

Oh I dunno.... off the top of my head:

* Self Defence From:
- Criminals
- Wild Animals (Pending where you live)

* For use when a crime is seconds away and the police are minutes away..

* Tradition:
- Most American families, Espically us out here in the west/mid west have been shooting for generations. Its as much of our lives as shoes.

- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto in WW2 was once quoted saying that he was not looking forward to an invasion of the us homeland, because there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass. Now thats saying something considering how brain washed these guys were.

ect ect ect.

Oh wait, what am I saying....

Were AMERICANS! Were blood drinking, baby killing, oil stealing, crop burning, world hateing, soul stripping, money grubbing, no good kitten kickers who sits in our homemade bunkers with our munition stockpiles waiting the day to overthrow big brother and rule the world!!!!!!!

Phew... Excuse my outbreak of common sense for a moment.

**WarOne**

jp400: The Japanese for all their belief and devotion to themselves and their emperor were also not disillusioned by challenging the United States in terms of material and protracted warfare. They rightly feared failing to strike a pivotal blow against the United States, but duly fought on with the war because once started, it would not end until war exhaustion forced a peace settlement.

**Soladrin**

jp400 wrote:Oh I dunno.... off the top of my head:

* Self Defence From:
- Criminals
- Wild Animals (Pending where you live)

* For use when a crime is seconds away and the police are minutes away..

* Tradition:
- Most American families, Espically us out here in the west/mid west have been shooting for generations. Its as much of our lives as shoes.

- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto in WW2 was once quoted saying that he was not looking forward to an invasion of the us homeland, because there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass. Now thats saying something considering how brain washed these guys were.

ect ect ect.

Oh wait, what am I saying....

Were AMERICANS! Were blood drinking, baby killing, oil stealing, crop burning, world hateing, soul stripping, money grubbing, no good kitten kickers who sits in our homemade bunkers with our munition stockpiles waiting the day to overthrow big brother and rule the world!!!!!!!

Phew... Excuse my outbreak of common sense for a moment.

Wait wait wait... you call arming yourself to kill people common sense? Awesome.

Criminals... I wonder how all those guns got into circulation...

Tradition: World's best excuse to do senseless things!

Your expecting an invasion? good reason right there....

So yea... Yet to find a good reason.

**WarOne**

Soladrin wrote:Wait wait wait... you call arming yourself to kill people common sense? Awesome.

Criminals... I wonder how all those guns got into circulation...

Tradition: World's best excuse to do senseless things!

Your expecting an invasion? good reason right there....

So yea... Yet to find a good reason.

What would you consider to be "a good reason?" Obviously you believe that arming oneself with guns goes again the logic mechanism within your mind.

EDIT: No that is not sarcasm. Give me a list of things you consider good so I can form a rationale based on your perspective.

**Soladrin**

Honestly, I can't think of one, wich is the whole reason I ask this question... now I know this really boils down to oppinions, but the matter just baffles me. Might just be the mindset for me by growing up in Europe though.

I ask this out of pure curiosity for the whole situation.

I guess the only good reason I can think of is... For funsies, wich is the only reason I'd ever want one. But yea, I keep to my pellet rifle...

Oh, aside from how I come off here, I'm a huge gun/military tech nut. (who isn't when their into 40k eh?)

**Ratbarf**

Hey, where I live, coyotes try and eat my pets. We use guns to try and kill coyotes before they eat our pets. Traps are a lot more dangerous and illegal in our area because if someone comes on our land, or even if a kid is out playing, he might get caught in a lethal trap meant for a coyote. Guns are much much safer as long as the weilder is knowledgeable, diligent, and practices good hunting techniques. (IE not shooting until you are sure what you are shooting at is what you want to shoot at.)

**WarOne**

Well, the pure intent of guns is to kill. Insert reason to kill in barrel when you pull that trigger to eject a shell that ends the life of another human being. It is a simple and tragic fact that guns were meant to end lives for one reason or another, and we have evolved the gun into an art of murder and warfare that has spanned every corner of the globe merely for the intent to kill, regardless of the reason.

**Soladrin**

Ratbarf wrote:Hey, where I live, coyotes try and eat my pets. We use guns to try and kill coyotes before they eat our pets. Traps are a lot more dangerous and illegal in our area because if someone comes on our land, or even if a kid is out playing, he might get caught in a lethal trap meant for a coyote. Guns are much much safer as long as the weilder is knowledgeable, diligent, and practices good hunting techniques. (IE not shooting until you are sure what you are shooting at is what you want to shoot at.)

Now that is a good reason, though very location specific I guess. Didn't really think of it since the most dangerous wild life I've ever encountered is like a badger or a wild cow in a reserve...... (bloody bull kept me in a tree for 3 hours). Though I've heard rumors of Wolves migrating our way, wich I think is awesome

**jp400**

Soladrin wrote:
jp400 wrote:Oh I dunno.... off the top of my head:

* Self Defence From:
- Criminals
- Wild Animals (Pending where you live)

* For use when a crime is seconds away and the police are minutes away..

* Tradition:
- Most American families, Espically us out here in the west/mid west have been shooting for generations. Its as much of our lives as shoes.

- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto in WW2 was once quoted saying that he was not looking forward to an invasion of the us homeland, because there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass. Now thats saying something considering how brain washed these guys were.

ect ect ect.

Oh wait, what am I saying....

Were AMERICANS! Were blood drinking, baby killing, oil stealing, crop burning, world hateing, soul stripping, money grubbing, no good kitten kickers who sits in our homemade bunkers with our munition stockpiles waiting the day to overthrow big brother and rule the world!!!!!!!

Phew... Excuse my outbreak of common sense for a moment.

Wait wait wait... you call arming yourself to kill people common sense? Awesome.

Criminals... I wonder how all those guns got into circulation...

Tradition: World's best excuse to do senseless things!

Your expecting an invasion? good reason right there....

So yea... Yet to find a good reason.

And you completly missed the joke at the end. Now that is whats awesome.

Criminals buy guns off this thing called the black market. Most criminals don't legally own guns or carry CCW's, or generally follow the laws. Jo blow ain't going to go to Guns R Us, fill out the paperwork, wait a few days for a background check, just to shoot someone and throw away the registered gun. They are looking for these things called "throw away" guns. One time use junkers that can't be traced back to them and are off all the books.

Tradition isn't senseless when its a way of life and has been for over a hundred years.

Two words for invasion: RED DAWN!!!!!!!

Also A Firearm is a TOOL. And like any tool it can be used for both good and bad. The Tool doesn't have a mind of it's own. It doesn't think, look at you sideways, and make decisions. Someone has to physically pick it up and use it. There is not a single firearm ever that has jumped up off the table, loaded itself with ammo, and went on a shooting spree. People kill people. The humble firearm is just another tool. Much like a knife, Car, club ect ect.

**Soladrin**

I know you were kidding, but I was being serious. Yea, who am I kidding, i fell for that one face first.

Oh and how much % of the guns on the black market have come from legal shops etc.? Cause I know your criminals are much more heavily armed on avarage compared to Europe.

**WarOne**

Well, it could be potentially high. We have a few tricks police like to use to collect illegally owned guns. They sometimes hold a day of collection with "Don't ask, Don't tell" policies for people who bring in illegally owned guns and get cash from the police by turning them in. Some drives turn up hundreds of guns ranging from modded air rifles to automatic weapons seen only in Israeli armed forces.