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He must be deployed to gain the +1 bonus on reserves rolls?

I'm considering one completely deep-stryking army but i'm not sure it will work.
On the Italian version of the Codex isn't specified at all.

Toban wrote:He must be deployed to gain the +1 bonus on reserves rolls?

I'm considering one completely deep-stryking army but i'm not sure it will work.
On the Italian version of the Codex isn't specified at all.

Neither in the English version. Sucks for you, as there is no answer.

people have been playing it both ways. just be careful with using the deep striking tyrant. there are people on this very board that think they can't deep strike despite having wings, the wing rules saying they move like jump infantry, and deepstriking described for jump infantry under the "Movement" category... sad, but true...

The question you have to ask yourself is the Hive Tyrant alive whilst in reserve. If not then what use is a dead Hive Tyrant when he arrives?

Yes the Hive commander rule certainly works whilst you are in reserve. To play it any other way is breaking the clear RaI and RaW (as the Lictor rule illustrates by defining the model must be on the table).

Likewise anyone claiming the Flyrant can't deepstrike is breaking clear RaI and RaW. Deepstriking is a type of movement as clearly laid out on pg95 of the rulebook. Where as RaI is made clear by the Deepostriking ability being under the movement section of JI special rules.

The confusion is caused by the Chaos Marine 4th ed codex (back when not all JI could DS as part of their movement) where the wings do somehting slightly different.

FlingitNow wrote:Deepostriking

is this deep'o'striking ability limited to irish hive fleets only? couldn't resist. like my post above hints at, i agree that they should get the +1 and should be able to deep strike.

is this deep'o'striking ability limited to irish hive fleets only?

Only if they've had their guiness!

So yes.
Excuse me for my little English comprehension but you know.. some times..

Anyway, I will try eventually.

In any case isn't so differents if instead the wings it will be choosed as a normal Tyrant in a SPod, still with the Hive Commander ability.

Teorically the 65% of my army (that will include 1 TryPrime + 2 Trygon + 2 Carnifex + 3 Zoanthropes + the Doom and the Tyrant w/ or w/out wings) will pop out the second turn.

In a kill-points game it could be not so bad I think..

Yeah theoretically . . . Everyone loves theoretical things =p

Oshova

You can't spod the Hive Tyrant, Wings definitely allows it to deep strike so there really is no need.

FlingitNow wrote:You can't spod the Hive Tyrant, Wings definitely allows it to deep strike so there really is no need.

Wings do not allow it to Deepstrike.

Gwar as usual is dead on in terms of RAW.

Wings do not change the model type to jump infantry thereby allowing it to deep strike, it only allows the unit to MOVE as though it were jump infantry. The Hive Tyrant maintains the unit type of "Monsterous Creature" and therefore does not gain the special rule for deep strike as detailed in the movement paragraph as it indicates "jump infantry units" not "units able to move like jump infantry" in bgb p.52

therefore it is permitted to move 12" in the movement phase, but not deep strike. (C:Tyranids, p.84)

RaI in this case may be slightly different to RaW but this would need to be FAQ'd and errata'd.

Incedently, the Harpy is in the same boat as the hive tyrant...

[edit: hit submit too soon]

In the Tactica article in the March issue of White Dwarf, the codex author, Mr. Cruddace, writes that winged tyrants can deepstrike.

Arschbombe wrote:In the Tactica article in the March issue of White Dwarf, the codex author, Mr. Cruddace, writes that winged tyrants can deepstrike.

White Dwarf also says models with the Mark of The Wulfen can use Thunderhammers.

White Dwarf is as reliable as Lasguns vs Wraithlords.

if the OP wants an all DSing army, take Warrior Primes and warriors in pods.

Gwar! wrote:White Dwarf also says models with the Mark of The Wulfen can use Thunderhammers.

The batreps are certainly unreliable. But when the codex author writes an article on how to get the most out of your nids and he tells you that you should consider deepstriking your winged tyrant then maybe it would be wise to reconsider your interpretation of the rule in question. In this case there is a solid argument to made for both sides of the issue. I think Mr. Cruddace's article is decisive and fully expect the eventual FAQ to make the same ruling.

Seriphis wrote:Gwar as usual is dead on in terms of RAW.

Wings do not change the model type to jump infantry thereby allowing it to deep strike, it only allows the unit to MOVE as though it were jump infantry. The Hive Tyrant maintains the unit type of "Monsterous Creature" and therefore does not gain the special rule for deep strike as detailed in the movement paragraph as it indicates "jump infantry units" not "units able to move like jump infantry" in bgb p.52

therefore it is permitted to move 12" in the movement phase, but not deep strike. (C:Tyranids, p.84)

p.84, it moves like jump infantry... where are the jump infantry movement rules described? they're under "movement" under "jump infantry"... sneaky huh? what else is right there? deep strike. so, yes, they can deep strike and RAW = RAI = White Dwarf in this particular case.

warboss wrote:

Seriphis wrote:Gwar as usual is dead on in terms of RAW.

Wings do not change the model type to jump infantry thereby allowing it to deep strike, it only allows the unit to MOVE as though it were jump infantry. The Hive Tyrant maintains the unit type of "Monsterous Creature" and therefore does not gain the special rule for deep strike as detailed in the movement paragraph as it indicates "jump infantry units" not "units able to move like jump infantry" in bgb p.52

therefore it is permitted to move 12" in the movement phase, but not deep strike. (C:Tyranids, p.84)

p.84, it moves like jump infantry... where are the jump infantry movement rules described? they're under "movement" under "jump infantry"... sneaky huh? what else is right there? deep strike. so, yes, they can deep strike and RAW = RAI = White Dwarf in this particular case.

yes but as i said, it says JUMP INFANTRY UNITS, not UNITS WHO MOVE LIKE JUMP INFANTRY

Seriphis wrote:

warboss wrote:

Seriphis wrote:Gwar as usual is dead on in terms of RAW.

Wings do not change the model type to jump infantry thereby allowing it to deep strike, it only allows the unit to MOVE as though it were jump infantry. The Hive Tyrant maintains the unit type of "Monsterous Creature" and therefore does not gain the special rule for deep strike as detailed in the movement paragraph as it indicates "jump infantry units" not "units able to move like jump infantry" in bgb p.52

therefore it is permitted to move 12" in the movement phase, but not deep strike. (C:Tyranids, p.84)

p.84, it moves like jump infantry... where are the jump infantry movement rules described? they're under "movement" under "jump infantry"... sneaky huh? what else is right there? deep strike. so, yes, they can deep strike and RAW = RAI = White Dwarf in this particular case.

yes but as i said, it says JUMP INFANTRY UNITS, not UNITS WHO MOVE LIKE JUMP INFANTRY

It also says Jump Infantry can move 12" in the movement phase, and the Tyrant is not jump infantry so this statement doesn't really make sense.

If it can move like Jump Infantry and Deep-Striking is also considered a movement when the BRB states "after a unit uses its Deep-Strike movement," then I will be inclined to say it can DS. Don't ask for a page, I don't remember it offhand, but I just remember reading about this stuff on another forum. Too many factors point that it should allow it to DS (White Dwarf where author specifically says it can comes to mind most).

Movement doesn't have to be specifically under a "Movement Phase" heading either. A model is moved anytime it goes from one location to another. Whether it's moving in the movement phase, running, assaulting, falling back. DS is just another movement to move from 1 place to another.

Although my group house rules that you can Deep Strike, there is somewhat of a precedent for Wings specifically saying that you gain the ability to deep strike, a la CSM.

Also, the author would have more credibility in my eyes if the 'Nid codex didn't have so many glaring RAW problems. Spore Mines, anyone?

Hoodwink wrote:

Seriphis wrote:

warboss wrote:

Seriphis wrote:Gwar as usual is dead on in terms of RAW.

Wings do not change the model type to jump infantry thereby allowing it to deep strike, it only allows the unit to MOVE as though it were jump infantry. The Hive Tyrant maintains the unit type of "Monsterous Creature" and therefore does not gain the special rule for deep strike as detailed in the movement paragraph as it indicates "jump infantry units" not "units able to move like jump infantry" in bgb p.52

therefore it is permitted to move 12" in the movement phase, but not deep strike. (C:Tyranids, p.84)

p.84, it moves like jump infantry... where are the jump infantry movement rules described? they're under "movement" under "jump infantry"... sneaky huh? what else is right there? deep strike. so, yes, they can deep strike and RAW = RAI = White Dwarf in this particular case.

yes but as i said, it says JUMP INFANTRY UNITS, not UNITS WHO MOVE LIKE JUMP INFANTRY

It also says Jump Infantry can move 12" in the movement phase, and the Tyrant is not jump infantry so this statement doesn't really make sense.

If it can move like Jump Infantry and Deep-Striking is also considered a movement when the BRB states "after a unit uses its Deep-Strike movement," then I will be inclined to say it can DS. Don't ask for a page, I don't remember it offhand, but I just remember reading about this stuff on another forum. Too many factors point that it should allow it to DS (White Dwarf where author specifically says it can comes to mind most).

Movement doesn't have to be specifically under a "Movement Phase" heading either. A model is moved anytime it goes from one location to another. Whether it's moving in the movement phase, running, assaulting, falling back. DS is just another movement to move from 1 place to another.

+1

Imagine you're a new player, without knowing the BGB back and forth. You decide to play Tyranids. You think, oooh, I can make a winged Hive Tyrant. Now, what does that do for me? Okay, it says that the creature moves exactly like jump infantry. Now, what does that mean? So I go to page 52 of the BGB and I read everything about Jump Infantry Movement (since, it is under the Movement heading and nothing about the Wings entry said, "Moves just like Jump Infantry except this and this and this.") So, since it says "moves just like Jump Infantry", I read the entire Movement Section of Jump Infantry. There it is, at the bottom: "All jump infantry may enter the battle by 'deep strike', as explained on page 95."

As a new player, I think, "Sweet! I can move just like Jump Infantry and under Jump Infantry movement it says that they can 'deep strike'." Upon further investigation you want to make sure that this is true. And you should find that Deep Strike is movement, not deployment. The Jump Infantry (just like a winged tyrant) has been deployed via Reserves. And, once he becomes available (just like Jump Infantry), he may move just like Jump Infantry, which includes movement via 'deep striking'. Therefore, I deep strike my tyrant on, per the rules on page 52 and 95.

I know exactly what page it is said on.

its a point of argument isnt it?...

It says, jump infantry can move 12" in the movement phase. I dont argue that.

Deep strike is not contained within the movement rules.
Deep strike is contained within the mission special rules.

The special rule "Deep Strike" is inferred to the unit by having the unit type of "Jump Infantry"

Now explain to me, how, being able to move like a unit type, changes the unit type of the model in question?

Page 52 as stated above states, unit type of jump infantry can deep strike.
Page 95 is mission special rules, not movement.

Seriphis wrote:I know exactly what page it is said on.

its a point of argument isnt it?...

It says, jump infantry can move 12" in the movement phase. I dont argue that.

Deep strike is not contained within the movement rules.
Deep strike is contained within the mission special rules.

The special rule "Deep Strike" is inferred to the unit by having the unit type of "Jump Infantry"

Actually it doesn't say "by having the unit type "Jump Infantry". It simply says that those units may enter play via 'deep strike'. What do you think 'deep strike' is? Is it not movement? What is it? If you're not deep-striking and you 'enter play' what are you doing? You're moving on to the board. Just like deep-striking models. They're not deploying. They're moving onto the board. And how are they doing that? Just like jump infantry.

Nowhere does it say that it is "inferred to the unit by having the unit type of "Jump Infantry". It simply states under Jump Infantry Movement, where Wings told me to look, that they may enter play via deep-strike.

Seriphis wrote:Now explain to me, how, being able to move like a unit type, changes the unit type of the model in question?

It doesn't change the unit type. It says the creature moves exactly like Jump Infantry. What does Jump Infantry movement say? That they may enter play via deep-strike. And I didn't quote the last question because it has no bearing on the conversation and doesn't even make sense the scope of what we're talking about. No one ever said anything about changing unit type. Only you did. You don't have to change unit type to move like jump infantry, especially since moving like jump infantry includes arriving via deep-strike.

Or, are you going to suggest that jump infantry movement doesn't include deep-striking, since it is under jump infantry movement, with a reference to the deep-strike rules?

deep-strike is not a movement though.

If you be inclusive, i can do all of the movement things that unit can do... but as deep-strike is a means of deployment, which is not movement, i cant do that.

it states in the rules: roll for arrival, then deploy as follows, place unit on table, scatter, place full unit where it scatters.

At no point does it say, move the unit onto the table.

Note:
Normal deployment from reserves states, move the unit onto the table from the table edge, unless it is deep striking or outflanking.

Seriphis wrote:deep-strike is not a movement though.

If you be inclusive, i can do all of the movement things that unit can do... but as deep-strike is a means of deployment, which is not movement, i cant do that.

Deep strike is not deployment. It is the movement after deployment. Once you arrive from reserve, you are "deployed", page 94. Once you are "deployed" you move onto the board. Page 94. Consider the Reserves deployment and the Deep Strike movement. Just like moving onto a board edge or outflanking. You are deployed and then you "move" onto the table. You don't place the model on the table (deploying) and then move it. You move onto the table, via deep-strike, outflank or simple board-edge. Page 94.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seriphis wrote:deep-strike is not a movement though.

If you be inclusive, i can do all of the movement things that unit can do... but as deep-strike is a means of deployment, which is not movement, i cant do that.

it states in the rules: roll for arrival, then deploy as follows, place unit on table, scatter, place full unit where it scatters.

At no point does it say, move the unit onto the table.

Note:
Normal deployment from reserves states, move the unit onto the table from the table edge, unless it is deep striking or outflanking.

It also says on the second-to-last paragraph, "they are too disrupted by their deep strike move."

Also, fourth from the bottom, "when they arrive, these units may not move any further," Doesn't that indicate that they've already moved? But if they've only deployed, they haven't moved yet. . .

Third from the bottom, "obviously count has having moved. . ."

Glad to see someone biting... haha

You are correct in stating the rolling for reserves rules however you paraphrased the last part of the sentence which states "move onto the table as described later". The arriving from reserve rules states that moving onto the table occurs when the reserve has arrived, unless it is deep striking or outflanking.

Outflanking then defines that it moves on to the table edge based on the roll.

Deep striking then defines that the model is placed on the table, at no point does it say that it moves on.

I dont have the eldar codex, so i dont have the exact wording for that unit. But i would hazard that if it doesnt explicitly state it is jump infantry, or has the special rule of deep strike in its profile then, no, i would rule no deep strike.

However i do have the codex chaos space marines and it is explicit. Wings give the ability to move like jump infantry, but then also state that they may be kept in reserve and arrive using deep strike.

No other unit provided as a counter argument has made this definition.

btw, count as moved =/= to moved.
EG. IC separating from unit, counts as moved, but the model can still remain stationary.

Seriphis wrote:Glad to see someone biting... haha

You are correct in stating the rolling for reserves rules however you paraphrased the last part of the sentence which states "move onto the table as described later". The arriving from reserve rules states that moving onto the table occurs when the reserve has arrived, unless it is deep striking or outflanking.

Outflanking then defines that it moves on to the table edge based on the roll.

Deep striking then defines that the model is placed on the table, at no point does it say that it moves on.

I dont have the eldar codex, so i dont have the exact wording for that unit. But i would hazard that if it doesnt explicitly state it is jump infantry, or has the special rule of deep strike in its profile then, no, i would rule no deep strike.

However i do have the codex chaos space marines and it is explicit. Wings give the ability to move like jump infantry, but then also state that they may be kept in reserve and arrive using deep strike.

No other unit provided as a counter argument has made this definition.

btw, count as moved =/= to moved.
EG. IC separating from unit, counts as moved, but the model can still remain stationary.

Okay, I'll edit my former post then:

It also says on the second-to-last paragraph, "they are too disrupted by their deep strike move."

Also, fourth from the bottom, "when they arrive, these units may not move any further," Doesn't that indicate that they've already moved? But if they've only deployed, they haven't moved yet. . .


Also, it may not matter to you (it does to some, it doesn't to others - tournaments around here use the INAT), but the INAT ruled:

"RB.52B.01 – Q: If a non Jump-Infantry model is able to „move as‟ Jump Infantry (such as a Tyranid Hive Tyrant with wings, for example), does that mean they are also allowed to Deep Strike?
A: Yes it does [clarification]."

The INAT also ruled that changing how Wolf Claws worked entirely was a "Clarification", along with a host of other rules changes.

fifth from the top, is to say that it can not be moved in the turn it arrives. "I completed the work on my computer, but owing to the fact my manager was not available i couldnt move further."

sixth from the top, is the only time its suggested as being a 'move'. Move in this context is to say action, "it was a classy move", doesnt mean i walked anywhere or arrived at a place by any form of action, it could have been a statement i made in speech.

INAT 'may' be played in tournies, then adhere to that rule for tournies... if the tournie plays RAW then you have not made the argument moot.

Seriphis wrote:fifth from the top, is to say that it can not be moved in the turn it arrives. "I completed the work on my computer, but owing to the fact my manager was not available i couldnt move further."

sixth from the top, is the only time its suggested as being a 'move'. Move in this context is to say action, "it was a classy move", doesnt mean i walked anywhere or arrived at a place by any form of action, it could have been a statement i made in speech.

I agree completely. But I don't think we're talking about these definitions. In every part of those sentences, it is talking about movement, not being displaced or repositioned. It is talking about not being able to move any further. That does not denote cannot perform another action (as in, move the cylinder, move the keys), it means, they cannot move any farther than where they are. Why? Because they -can- perform another action - shooting. And shooting is a "movement action". And "it was a classy move" may be similar to "deep strike move", but doesn't apply to the first sentence.

Seriphis wrote:INAT 'may' be played in tournies, then adhere to that rule for tournies... if the tournie plays RAW then you have not made the argument moot.

I wasn't trying to make the argument moot. I was simply stating that a widely-accepted FAQ (from my experience in the Southeast US) rules for it. I don't really have a stake in the argument. I believe that "moving like jump infantry" means that they "move like jump infantry." Which includes deep-striking as per the Movement heading under Jump Infantry. After all, it is a permissive ruleset no? And the rule says, "moves exactly like jump infantry." It doesn't say, "moves just like jump infantry except that last sentence." It allows you to inherit that "Movement" heading under Jump Infantry.

And, in the tournaments around here, the INAT is used, so I don't really have to worry about it. I don't even use a deep-striking Tyrant, but if someone did it, I'm not going to piss and moan about how he's not "jump infantry".

I say it can deepstrike in since wings allow it to act as jump infantry even though its not.