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I see people taking infantry squads loaded in Valkyries at the beginning of the game. How is this possible? The Valkyrie is not a Designated Transport so it cannot start games with infantry embarked. What is the ruling on this?

Dogface 76 wrote:I see people taking infantry squads loaded in Valkyries at the beginning of the game. How is this possible? The Valkyrie is not a Designated Transport so it cannot start games with infantry embarked. What is the ruling on this?

Where does it say this? You can begin the game with units inside Non-Dedicated Transports just fine.

THat being the case, what if i start a squad of veterans inside it and deepstrike. Is there a problem with the veterans not having the Deepstrike rule?

Dogface 76 wrote:THat being the case, what if i start a squad of veterans inside it and deepstrike. Is there a problem with the veterans not having the Deepstrike rule?

Can Tactical Marines use a Drop Pod?

In other words: Yes, the Vets can Deep Strike or Outflank in a Vendetta.

but Drop Pods do not take up space on the FOC. Vendettas do....

Dogface 76 wrote:but Drop Pods do not take up space on the FOC. Vendettas do....

Why does that matter?

I dont know....hahaha

i guess it was just one of those rules that got stuck in my head and i could not get over it. I will start using that Flying tank destroyer to full advantage from now on.....

thanks

Dont deepstrike, outflank

Far safer.

Dont deepstrike, outflank

Yeah outflank if you go 2nd just use the scout move if you go first.

FlingitNow wrote:

Dont deepstrike, outflank

Yeah outflank if you go 2nd just use the scout move if you go first.

Which gets royally fethed over a bramble patch in 1/6 of games, especially since the Vendettas don't get the Cover save from moving Flat out in the Scout move.

Which gets royally fethed over a bramble patch in 1/6 of games, especially since the Vendettas don't get the Cover save from moving Flat out in the Scout move.

Yes it does but it does also depending on how you're playing that rule, as different people play it different ways.

Here is some other items to think about. In the BRB it says that a unit with the scout/infiltrate rule that has a DEDICATED TRANSPORT has the special rule conveyed to the Vehicle and that vehicle takes on the characteristics of the infantry unit it is carrying. Ex. Harker has the infiltrate special rule. If I place him in reserve with a Chimera and use his Outflank capability he can outflank on the table in that Chimera.

There is NOTHING in the rulebook to say that a Vehicle (that is not a Designated Transport) conveys this to any passengers it may carry—in relation to rules like Deep Strike, Scouts, Infiltrate. My Vendetta has Scouts and Deep Strike but I find nothing in the BRB or Codex that says that rule conveys to the infantry deployed inside at the beginning of the game. You cannot give a Veteran Squad that ability by proxy by deploying them in a Vendetta that you are not starting on turn one, but have in reserve.

this seems like a big arguing point for an opponent. By this rationale you could only start non-dedicated transports with infantry and use them as basic reserves or start them in a standard deployment scenario--still useful but not as dynamic

Dogface 76 wrote:Here is some other items to think about. In the BRB it says that a unit with the scout/infiltrate rule that has a DEDICATED TRANSPORT has the special rule conveyed to the Vehicle and that vehicle takes on the characteristics of the infantry unit it is carrying. Ex. Harker has the infiltrate special rule. If I place him in reserve with a Chimera and use his Outflank capability he can outflank on the table in that Chimera.

There is NOTHING in the rulebook to say that a Vehicle (that is not a Designated Transport) conveys this to any passengers it may carry—in relation to rules like Deep Strike, Scouts, Infiltrate. My Vendetta has Scouts and Deep Strike but I find nothing in the BRB or Codex that says that rule conveys to the infantry deployed inside at the beginning of the game. You cannot give a Veteran Squad that ability by proxy by deploying them in a Vendetta that you are not starting on turn one, but have in reserve.

this seems like a big arguing point for an opponent. By this rationale you could only start non-dedicated transports with infantry and use them as basic reserves or start them in a standard deployment scenario--still useful but not as dynamic

Nothing says that the Unit inside can move 12" either. Are my Rhinos now all stcuk to moving 6" a turn?

Dogface - the vehicle has permission to Scout / Outflank / etc, nothing indicates that the embarked unit needs any permission to be carried along.

Dogface 76 wrote:There is NOTHING in the rulebook to say that a Vehicle (that is not a Designated Transport) conveys this to any passengers it may carry—in relation to rules like Deep Strike, Scouts, Infiltrate. My Vendetta has Scouts and Deep Strike but I find nothing in the BRB or Codex that says that rule conveys to the infantry deployed inside at the beginning of the game. You cannot give a Veteran Squad that ability by proxy by deploying them in a Vendetta that you are not starting on turn one, but have in reserve.

this seems like a big arguing point for an opponent. By this rationale you could only start non-dedicated transports with infantry and use them as basic reserves or start them in a standard deployment scenario--still useful but not as dynamic

We can go back to the Drop Pod... it can Deep Strike but the passengers cannot. So does that mean the Pod can't Deep Strike? No. It already has the rule.

As for the Scout/Outflank thing we have the same principle in play. The Vendetta or Valkyrie is doing the Scouting or Outflanking, not the squad inside. It's no different really than a Tactical Squad in a Drop Pod. The passengers are legally allowed to start the game in the Valk/Vendetta. The Valk/Vendetta is legally allowed to Deep Strike/Scout/Outflank. The Troops inside are legally allowed to stay in Reserve. You are breaking no rules by putting them in the transport per the Reserves rules on page 94, you just have to declare that they are Embarked in the transport and that the transport will Outflank/Deepstrike/whatever. The troops are just along for the ride.

Dogface....
You better never put Tac Marines, Dreads, or Sternguard in a Drop Pod then, since those units do not have Deep Strike...

If you play Eldar, you better keep your skimmers moving 6"...no fast Wave Serpents for you, if they have anything inside...

Your slow and purposeful Meganobs now make your BW have to roll to see how far it can move...

Do you see how your argument breaks down?

Once a unit is embarked in a vehicle, you use the vehicle's rules for movement, not the unit inside. The only exception to this is a units ability to grant scout/outflank to a dedicated transport.

Edit* Ninjad....lol

My argument is Dedicated transports vs deploying troops in Non dedicated and applying the vehicles rules to the embarked troops.

If you embark troops after the game has started then there is no issue.

I was specifically talking about using a Non dedicated Transport vehicles ability for DS/Outflank/scout before the game has begun and giving a unit that normally doesnt have that ability it by proxy.

Drop Pods, Wave Serpents, and BW can be taken as DT.

It isnt giving the unit the abiilty, as at no point is "the unit" doing anything.

If you are stating that the contents of a vehicle affect what the vehicle can do, you are, implicitly, stating that vehicles with troops embarked can only move 6" in a turn

Dog face so LRs can only move 6" with Termmies on board? ICs can't get into DPs with a squad? Falcons likewise have to footslog with infantry on board? BWs taken as Heav Support have to SnP with Mega Nobz on board?

Dogface 76 wrote:
If you embark troops after the game has started then there is no issue.

I was specifically talking about using a Non dedicated Transport vehicles ability for DS/Outflank/scout before the game has begun and giving a unit that normally doesnt have that ability it by proxy.

Im concerned with DS/Outflank/Scouts rules as applied to non dedicated transports and deploying units inside of them before the game begins and there by giving an infantry unit that normally doesnt have these abilities an extra advantage.

If i wasnt clear enough sorry to raise so many hackles but i do think this is a valid concern for this specific issue. This is not an attack on the Transport rules as a whole.

Except it is.

You are stating that the unit inside the vehicle constrains the vehicles actions.

the logical corrolary to your claims is that the movement speed of the infantry inside must also constrain the vehicle, otherwise you are being inconsistent.

In addition you are requiring that ICs cannot embark Drop Pods, as they are not the unit the pod was bought with, making the extra 2 slots on a C:SM 'pod utterly useless.

Can't you see the road you are going down?

in addition you assume that, since explicit permission is given for a scouting unit to give their dedicated vehicle "scout" the opposite must be true - this is an unsubstantiated assumption.

dogface, do the rules make any such statment regarding this supposed difference you are postulating between dedicated and non-dedicated transports? Only one I'm aware of is the bit about dedicated transports only being able to start the game with 'their' unit inside of them.

So, since there isn't any such rule, where are you drawing your suppositions from?

.
My example: Veteran Squad--no deep strike ability on its own--Vendetta--DS, Scounts. Deploy them together and hold for turn 4 and DS them on an objective. Excellent tactic and something to strive for. But arent all abilities added to the point totals of models? and by DS these veterans with the Vendetta arent the Vets now worth more than the 70 pts they are originally valued at? That is the crux of the question i had

The Group of gamers i play with is limited and pretty tight nit--3-5 regular players. and for some reason NONE of us have been deploying units in transports at the beginning of the game unless they were Dedicated. Its a case of the blind leading the blind and all that. That is where this came from....we all started looking at the BRB and Yup found out that you CAN deploy troops in Non Dedicated transports. (although one guy still wont accept it, he still thinks that you would have to Deploy the Vets on the Table and then pick them up with the Vendetta)

I am embracing this rule now because i do want to load up some Vets and drop them as a late Objective taker--

Again, why do you think they cannot do this but Space Marines can in a Drop Pod?

Dogface 76 wrote:
My example: Veteran Squad--no deep strike ability on its own--Vendetta--DS, Scounts. Deploy them together and hold for turn 4 and DS them on an objective. Excellent tactic and something to strive for. But arent all abilities added to the point totals of models? and by DS these veterans with the Vendetta arent the Vets now worth more than the 70 pts they are originally valued at? That is the crux of the question i had

The Group of gamers i play with is limited and pretty tight nit--3-5 regular players. and for some reason NONE of us have been deploying units in transports at the beginning of the game unless they were Dedicated. Its a case of the blind leading the blind and all that. That is where this came from....we all started looking at the BRB and Yup found out that you CAN deploy troops in Non Dedicated transports. (although one guy still wont accept it, he still thinks that you would have to Deploy the Vets on the Table and then pick them up with the Vendetta)

I am embracing this rule now because i do want to load up some Vets and drop them as a late Objective taker--

OK, point the first. You cannot "hold them until turn 4", as you must start rolling for them on turn 2. If they show up on turn 2 or 3, they show up and you MUST bring them in, no choice in the matter.
As for point values, heh, yeah, right. If anyone ever figures out waht non-formula GW uses for point values, that'll be a first. Example, IG Storm Troopers. But if unit costs do include abilities, then the point value of the Valk/Vend covers the ability to deep strike with a unit embarked, right?

Because Drop pods are DTs and confer deep strike, and you can opt to drop them all on turn one without putting any in reserve. And SMs that use DP have to use them as Dedicated Transports.....

I see Drop Pods (DT) and Vendettas as apples and oranges.

Im gonna start using my Vendetta as you all describe and smite the foes of the Emperor!

Dogface 76 wrote:Because Drop pods are DTs and confer deep strike, and you can opt to drop them all on turn one without putting any in reserve. And SMs that use DP have to use them as Dedicated Transports.....

I see Drop Pods (DT) and Vendettas as apples and oranges.

Im gonna start using my Vendetta as you all describe and smite the foes of the Emperor!

Ok, there is quite a lot wrong here:

Firstly, Drop Pods do not "confer" Deep Strike, they are a Transport that Deep Strikes, Exactly the same as a Vendetta.

Secondly, being a DT Doesn't make a shred of Difference.

Thirdly, You Cannot bring them all in on turn 1, only half.

Fourthly, they DO Start in Reserve, they just modify how they arrive from reserve by having Half coming in on Turn 1, then the rest come on as normal.

And again I ask, where in the rules is this mythical difference between Dedicated transports and non-dedicated transports that you keep insisting upon? Without rules text to show that they are treated differently in this matter, they are treated the same.

And no, you cannot drop them all on turn one, you can only drop half, rounded up............... The rest MUST go in Reserves.

@Dogface,

I think the issue is that part of the reason these non-dedicated transports have these abilities is to confer them to the squads you start in them. This is just how 5th edition works, now that you can start squads in vehicles that they did not purchase themselves.

You're looking at the rule for scouts that says that a unit cannot give their rule to a non-dedicated vehicle, and trying to turn it around to say that a non-dedicated vehicle can't give their rule to a unit. This just isn't true.

The line about allowing units to scout inside their dedicated transport is really just to allow things like Tau Pathfinders to scout in their Devilfish, while preventing people from, say, conferring Scout to a Falcon or something.

I totally agree and accept your interpretations of this as law.

I will now go and put some burn cream on all exposed skin.......