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Different country , different society , different social values.

What works in A might not work in B.

Just out of curiosity for the people against this new discipline.

What do you suppose China should do instead for people that breaks such laws?

Why was the one child policy implemented in the first place?

Well i figured , Chinese government isnt exactly naive.
They would have a very good reason to implement such a harsh law. Especially some thing that effects every single family...
Which of course can very easily have the populace lose trust and support to the government, which is all the government have atm.
Because im pretty sure the world now wouldnt let another Tienament Square incident happen again.

So i guess the immediate question is , China is already pretty over populated atm , more people then the country can find work for.
Without the policy , what is China going to do with the extra 300 million people?

To us westerners , yes such act is indeed barbaric and it takes away our basic human rights.
But like i said back in page 1 , different country different society. How does the people in China feel?

Remember most of China is still communist , the country cannot sustain to distribute "wealth" to 300 million extra in the population.

I dont know how many Mexicans are taking jobs away from Americans , but it seems to be enough of a concern to some.
Im just guessing , but it might not be as high as 300 million.

So i guess the ultimate question is from the chinese governments point of view:

a) Choose 1 child policy , have some complaints from the nation

b) No such policy , population explosion , country cannot sustain its people anymore
result? if i have to guess , it'll be atleast worse than choice A.

Again , im not saying its the best choice , nor do i claim it to be not abusing human rights.
But i'll ask again , what better ideas do you guys have?

You have to remember , China is still very much a 3rd world country in its rural areas.
natural disasters happen very often in asia , a very large amount of crops are destroyed every year.
Where to get the extra commodity or perhaps the most basic shelter for 300 million extra?

So basically what you are saying is , you feel China can still sustain its population?

and will still be able to if 1 child policy isnt implemented?

Well , i guess the rest of the world would enjoy having more Chinese slave labor to saturate the companies.

ShumaGorath wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Well , i guess the rest of the world would enjoy having more Chinese slave labor to saturate the companies.

Meh. Northern africa and indonesia are cheaper. Why would you even bother responding if all you're going to do is say that we would prefer slave labor? Did you just have nothing useful to say?

No , because:

1) With the condition they are in , its pretty much true its slave labor.

2) Its related because China is communist country , everyone needs a job.
Extra population = extra mouth to feed + need extra jobs .

This is why i bother responding. How rude of you shuma

ShumaGorath wrote:
So you post something pointlessly contextless and inflammatory then support it with something contextless and inflammatory when called out on it. Firstly, communist doesn't mean everyone needs a job, it means the means of production are controlled by the people via the government. It has nothing to do with employment rates. Also thank you for the first grade explanation of population growth + peoples faces = needing food. It didn't actually elucidate anything everyone didn't already know, but it's nice you would think you need to explain that.

You responded because you dislike china. You have stated so in the past, and given you're from taiwan I certainly don't blame you. But that's not really a reason to talk about slave labor (chinese factory production has laws prohibiting the things you hear about on tv, the fact that they are bad at enforcing those laws doesn't mean that they don't exist). You asked about the chinese policymaking and what people thought of it, and I responded. You then replied with a blurb about chinese slaves being loved by the west.

Don't try and defend that.

Nice try to start something shuma ,

1) Inflammatory? you are beyond naive if you dont know the condition of their work place. Recently there is a chinese supervisor beat to death because he wasnt allowing the workers to take longer breaks.

2) In our ideal world not everyone need a job (lol welfare) But in china its different. Everyone have to feel its fair or equal or else it wouldnt work.
Here you can read some slogan used by the population so you can easily understand their social mentality ( which is way different then your american ones obviously )
http://www.sacu.org/slogans.html

3) I dislike chinese government for the abusive things they do. Whats the big surprise shuma? Are you going to say im racist or something?
Yes im Taiwanese so what? that doesnt change the facts of the bad things Chinese government do.

4) Chinese have laws prohibiting such things? O-M-G , but hey , i guess the propaganda and media the government do does work wonders.
Yes... tell the truth about how horrible the workers are treated , lose work when other country's companies refuse to let such horrible condition go on...
Yes that would be so smart of the government.

Sorry , but i know you find the thread to be lacking something so i guess you expected me to spice it up ,
not falling for it this time.

Amazing, we have stabbings over work matters in america all the time. Until you at some point do something other than provide anecdotal evidence you're just going to look silly. There are factories with terrible conditions in china, that's obvious. Those factories also violate laws when that happens. A child could see that it's not so black and white. I've had this conversation with you before though, and you don't use evidence or logic to back up assertions relating to places I don't think you've ever been too so I'm just going to stop arguing it after this post.

Whats silly is you. Expecting to know much about china from watching Fox News. Try talking to someone from china for once and have them explain to you with their experience first hand.
What governments publicize on the news the rest of the world watches everyday is not the truth of whats going on inside.

Amusingly enough anti communist and pro democracy beliefs are most prevalent in the universities and poor subsistence regions of china. People in china understand it's not fair, anyone incapable of getting a regional visa to move away from the poorer regions understands that.

And most of them will never be able to afford it.

You responded because you dislike china. You have stated so in the past, and given you're from taiwan I certainly don't blame you.

I'll bold things more often so that you don't miss them in the future.

Wrong , I came in this thread actually defending the Chinese government incase you havnt bothered reading from the beginning.
I came in this thread telling why i think the government chose such path , for the greater good of sustaining the population.

And yet you don't rush into the threads about russia or north africa with the same zeal.

I dont know anything about russia or africa , so nope cant rush it or have zeal.

Can we get back to the topic at hand now? Or were you just planning to tear into chinese factory troubles when you were asking about peoples ideal alternatives to the one child per household laws?

The slave labor i original wrote was to show the over abundance of the chinese work force and in horrible condition. Hence the 1 child policy.
You took it as im trying to insult china. ( doubtful )
because its pretty obvious im saying china doesnt need anymore extra population to take up job spots. Hence , on topic.
But of course you already know that didnt you?

Sure, I'll do it tomorrow. I already did yesterday. I suppose I'll probably be doing it all week actually, I go to school with a good number of chinese exchange kids and one of my friends from highschool is a chinese major that teaches english over there.

That is a very naive thing to base things on. To be able to be in the exchange program , their families are already better off then the rest of the rural populace.
Of course the condition they experience are not the same.

Yes, but thats not why you responded to me. Your response about slave labor and western exploitation are what I was referring too. Please try and avoid making up issues to take with my posts.

You read what you want to read. Its not western company's fault of their condition everyone naturally wants more for less. Its the chinese factories own schedule's fault. naturally forcing more work , for less rest.

You don't seem to know much about china either.

How rude , what i know is way more accurate with what you know.
Our company deals with chinese factory very often.

No. No thats what you are saying now. You certainly didn't elucidate that point before.

Thats what i have been saying all along , again with your intelligence i can only assume you are taking it the wrong way on purpose.

Are we done with the petty accusations?

ShumaGorath wrote:

That is a very naive thing to base things on. To be able to be in the exchange program , their families are already better off then the rest of the rural populace.
Of course the condition they experience are not the same.

Well the highschool friend spent a year living in rural sichuan province but hey clearly your experience living in america gives you a better view of the situation than mine. You probably have a really nice telescope.

You read what you want to read.

No, I read your posts, which I really wish were based a little more on empirical evidence and fact than they are.

How rude , what i know is way more accurate with what you know.
Our company deals with chinese factory very often.

Neat. I worked with a dude at a local food mart for about a year who was an immigrant from yunnan. Good to know the telephone conversations you hear about second hand are better than the conversations I've had.

Thats what i have been saying all along , again with your intelligence i can only assume you are taking it the wrong way on purpose.

Are we done with the petty accusations?

God I hope so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:So then Shuma, how does it feel to hold the world on your shoulders like Atlas?

LOL.

Pretty good. I'm keeping it up so that people like you can survive. It's heavy but at the end of the day I've got a good feeling of accomplishment.

TL;DR in other words you dismiss my facts and i dismiss your facts.
The only difference is you have to be rude about it.

Its beyond my comprehension how such behavior are tolerated.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:

In most cases people sadly take the bait.

Im sorry >.< its not really that im so stupid and not know its a bait.
I guess its my sincerity to think that there might be a 1% chance he might actually cared.

But alas , whats been said is true.

"To argue for the sake of argument" ... i guess?

ShumaGorath wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:

In most cases people sadly take the bait.

Im sorry >.< its not really that im so stupid and not know its a bait.
I guess its my sincerity to think that there might be a 1% chance he might actually cared.

I care a lot. The issue is that your consistently factually incorrect about most of your arguments.

Which again , you assume im incorrect based on your experience.

And i'll say again , we both think each other is incorrect , the difference is , you have to be a "shuma" about it.

I face palmed irl when you brought up your confirmation of factory's work condition came from a chinese student that is obviously
well off enough to be in USA.

Manchu wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

LunaHound wrote:So basically what you are saying is , you feel China can still sustain its population? and will still be able to if 1 child policy isnt implemented?

If you look at the graph i posted and you take the entire difference between chinese and indian population growth to be the one child per household laws than you've basically got a 1% difference in year over year growth attributable to the policy. 1.5% growth in india vs .5% growth in china. China can certainly sustain it's population. It's sustaining it. thats not even a relevant or sensical question, now if you want to know where the breaking point is I don't really know. That depends on chinas continued ability to modernize, but a 1% difference isn't particularly significant on the short term. By comparison the UK has the same level of population growth and population density as china and is doing perfectly fine and japan has a lower population growth and higher density and is in an extreme demographic crisis relating to a lack of new citizens.

It's all fairly relative, china needed less people when it was a nation of starving communists, now it's becoming an industrial powerhouse and is rapidly modernizing into a business center. Suddenly it can handle a standard rate of population growth just like the rest of the world. I don't personally think that the policies benefits outweigh its negatives, the demographic issues of raising a generation of males (as the laws are doing since males are the ones that carry on family names) and the social issues inherent in administering such laws are worth a 1% difference in population growth.

LunaHound wrote:Well , i guess the rest of the world would enjoy having more Chinese slave labor to saturate the companies.

Yeah, I don't see how these two statements have anything to do with each other. There's a lot of Shuma-flaming going on here but if this is where it started, I think you've got the wrong guy.

If you look at the 2 post manchu , they are 100% to do with each other. Lets look at the sentence you quoted.

Let me explain further:

Red: This is a true fact. EVERY consumer enjoy low costs. Hence , foreign companies will always seek buisness with China.
Now , i think this is what sparked the problem. He assume im bad mouthing westerner to want slave labor.
Incorrect , ALL customers want are very simple , cheaper items. How the chinese labor are effected are all to do with the ethics
of how chinese company wish to pace the production.

Green: Its related to why i think China had the policy , to cut down the amount of work force they have to feed

Blue: Saturating company work force is related to above. We have to know one thing about chinese work ethics.
its NOT that because they lack people , that their working condition is so bad No. Its the workers are expected to produce as much as they can individually.

Not related manchu? i think they 100% are.

Manchu wrote:I saw these statements as:

Shuma's statement: China can sustain its growing population because it is becoming wealthier.

LunaHound's response: Countries other than China want to benefit from Chinese slave labor.

Reading them in this sense, which I believe is reasonable to do (I'll accept dogma's critique on this, however), they have little to do with each other.

Manchu did you seriously read all the statement?
or just that 1 sentence -_-?

Albatross wrote:

Luna wrote:Not related manchu? i think they 100% are.

I don't.

Do you really think people here who are opposed to China's birth control policy (of which I am one), are taking that position because we simply can't get enough cheap, poorly made Chinese consumer goods? Do you seriously believe that would be the case?

If so, put the bong down.

Nope thats not what i meant at all. I think you and shuma are misunderstanding it due to some sensitivity about the issue.
But if you will read on.

Wanting cheaper items does 2 things.
It creates opportunity , and it creates work force , and with China been a strong one , its a very common choice of country to pick from.

I emphasize slave labor for 2 reasons.

reason 1 as written not long ago. They are in bad condition not because they lack the work force to finish a work load.
They are in bad condition because everyone is expected to over work.

This is then linked to :

reason 2. They are expected to over work because if 7 people can finish the work load of 10 people , thats only 7 workers they have to feed instead of 10.

Hence reason 3:
An population increase will not effect the work condition because the original concept in reason 2 . Hence China implement to keep population in check.

Manchu wrote:Jack, Shuma stated that China would be able to sustain its population without recourse to the one child policy. This has nothing to do with work conditions. You are connecting "sustainability" with work conditions, which was not what Luna and Shuma were talking about before Luna mentioned slave labor.

Correction Manchu , that is exactly what i was talking about. But shuma was talking about different thing.
Thats why there is argument later. And now as well.

That 1 sentence is interpreted into 2 completely different things , hence you see yourself.

Manchu wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Correction Manchu , that is exactly what i was talking about. But shuma was talking about different thing.
Thats why there is argument later. And now as well.

That 1 sentence is interpreted into 2 completely different things , hence you see yourself.

I have no sensitivity about this issue or any other reason to read into your posts something that is not there--certainly not some kind of sympathy for Shuma, who can certainly take care of himself--but I still read your posts in a way that you say is totally different from your intent. I think the first miscommunication therefore can be laid at your door. (This doesn't justify any flaming that followed, of course.) TBH, I still don't see how "sustainability" has anything to do with the specter of slave labor. I thought Shuma's point was that the one child policy is not currently averting any kind of population crisis.

Then it depend what you view china as.

In my view China is split into 3 parts.

1) The government , the elites of the populace.

2) The above average populace , content with how the system works , able to express their opinion of the great government and system.

3) The majority , the rural populace of china. Born and raised with propaganda that doesnt know better.
Maybe with few governed radio and tv channels , not much connection with the rest of the world. Aka , what i referred earlier as still 3rd world country.

Albatross wrote:
Am I the only one having difficulty deciphering this? Sorry, not (really) trying to be rude here, but I'm not sure what your argument is - I get the impression it's one (or more) of these:

-People oppose China's birth-control policy because they are (indirectly, at least) in support of wage-slavery.

No , its 2 different issues. In the last 2 pages i have explained why i believe Birth control was implemented related to work force.

-Population growth is responsible for wage-slavery in China. (Not related to the OP)

No i mentioned many many times its not

-Wage-slavery benefits China's economy. (Not related to the OP)

Never said that either

-China's government wants to halt wage slavery by slowing population growth.

Easiest quote i can give you that i have written was the 7ppl working for 10 paragraph.

-China's Gov't wants to improve working conditions for industrial workers. By sterilising people.

China Govt dont want the condition of the work force to deteriorate if they can feed 7 instead of 10 of future

And forgot to include the important one that kept poping up "slavery wages"

I have never blamed foreign consumer and investors in wanting to contract chinese companies. As i said over and over again.
We naturally want things done for cheap.

I emphasize again, the one to blame are the chinese companies themselves for setting the work condition this way.

Chinese govt will welcome job creating opportunities given by foreign companies. But even the law are one eye open one eye shut.
And we dont even need to get the obvious government corruptions.

My points?

-Keep the old populace that is born into the unfair system , they'll keep working contently till they expire without problem because all their lives thats all they know to do.

-New populace in new world brings new idea. Which will rise against the system. However , the content / above average populace
will never be against the system because they have it nicely from it.

-Companies that want things done cheaply will be involved with China .
Things done cheap = things done with very fast pace = worse condition for workers.

-Communist rural china have one simple policy regarding work. Everyone work the hardest they can for the main country. Who ever doesnt share the same
drive or ethics are encouraged to be snitched for bonus. Without this type of raised mentality who on earth will willingly work like slaves.

-Current China population have enough work populace to get production done.

-Having more population growth will not effect work condition positively because the doctrine of how hard they should work is to be enforced because communism is supposed to be equal.
If one is allowed to slack off , others will follow.

- Having more population will effect the condition in a negative way because spreading the wealth of what 7 had into 10 = less for everyone.

Its awful how it works , but it works because thats how their society works.
Its easy to dismiss how others handle it. But can you guys guarantee what works in USA will work in China?
with the same effect? without additional consequences?

Albatross wrote:So China needs to sterilise people because they just can't get it together enough to create a workable internal economy? I don't buy that for one iota of a second.

Sorry what does internal economy mean T-T

Alpharius wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Albatross wrote:So China needs to sterilise people because they just can't get it together enough to create a workable internal economy? I don't buy that for one iota of a second.

Sorry what does internal economy mean T-T

What does that mean?

Its my emoticon in place of
or commonly known also as: Q.Q or ;_;

Im not exactly a fan of ork emoticons , and most people dont understand typed emoiticon,
so sometimes i use onion emoticons then people report me for trolling.

Life is great in OT!

Manchu wrote:Wait is it crying or rolling its eyes?

I dont see how the eyes are rolling .

From the look of it , i can only imagine it been 2 things.

1) Tears flowing from -_- face
or
2) Eye balls melted flowing off eye socket.

Oh... like i said i dont use them so they looked similar...
it looked like its pouting

well i made a thread explaining emoticons... you can take it a look so i dont get in trouble for OT...

lol my chinese friends are now reading this thread.

They told me one thing i forgot about.

"Never trust words from the mouth of someone that is still forced to remain in China. Not because they want to lie to us , but they'll be diciplined."

And from words of the ones finally free and out of China , John im sure even your parents will say this:

这样的官草菅人命 http://www.chinese-tools.com/chinese/chengyu/dictionary/detail/2633.html

ShumaGorath wrote:

And I really, really don't understand why people keep talking about controlling the peasant population in China, when the policy doesn't apply to rural Chinese.

The amount of ignorance concerning the subject matter here is enough to make all the tea in china start to cry.

Why do you say im ignorant shuma? because of the red hight lighted part?

*giggles

ShumaGorath wrote:

I didn't name any names or give any reasons. Now will I. I can see where that cliff goes.

Is that "nor will I" or "Now i will" ?

Say shuma , if you dont mind can i see the link you read where you quoted earlier ( and i highlighted in red ) ?

Link please shuma ^-^?

Shuma : )

tell me , what you meant by

ShumaGorath wrote:

And I really, really don't understand why people keep talking about controlling the peasant population in China, when the policy doesn't apply to rural Chinese.

The amount of ignorance concerning the subject matter here is enough to make all the tea in china start to cry.

What subject matter specifically are people ignorant about? enough to make tea cry?

ShumaGorath wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Shuma : )

tell me , what you meant by

ShumaGorath wrote:

And I really, really don't understand why people keep talking about controlling the peasant population in China, when the policy doesn't apply to rural Chinese.

The amount of ignorance concerning the subject matter here is enough to make all the tea in china start to cry.

What subject matter specifically are people ignorant about? enough to make tea cry?

I'm just gonna go to bed now.

Alright :') Just remember i always provided you links when you asked.

Gnite shuma

Additional Info for topic.

Chinese government have indeed declared the law even on rural population contrary to what you claimed and called me ignorant for.
Here are the details
They kept strict tracking of urban policy because from office its easiest to do so.

Keeping the policy on urban populace are more lax due to 2 issues.
a) The officials cannot properly enforce rural areas , too far away.
The rural populace ended up hiding their extra children in fear of paying for penalties they cannot afford

b) The rural close knit populace ( as the government called "backwards" ) have tradition of having a son no matter what in order to keep the family blood line.
The enforcers knowing this and when found / snitched upon the ones breaking , the government provides the rural population with "choices"
Which is to chose sterilize or pay penalty equivalent of Five Years Wages.

The consequence of the inconvenience and unable to enforce rural population getting away with it ,
the government produced 120 mil population surplus of work force .

Why the Chinese govt insist on this policy is also explained. Many of the ridicules and insults thrown at me from my post back in page 3...

Read it for yourselves. http://www.china.org.cn/e-white/familypanning/

And just for the lolz ( at my own expense again )
http://boards.4chan.org/lit/res/571199

Have fun , take care guys.