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Going for Doublewing this Ard Boyz. Had pretty good success with them, interested to see how it scales up.

Belial - 130
- Twin LC

Sammael - 205
- Speeder

Deathwing Squad - 275
- Heavy Flamer, 2 LC, CF, Banner, Apothecary

Deathwing Squad - 250
- CF, AC, LC

Deathwing Squad - 250
- CF, AC, LC

Deathwing Squad - 225
- CF, HF, LC

Ravenwing Squad - 160
- 2 Melta, Melta Bombs on Sgt, Apothecary
Attack Bike - 50
- MM

Ravenwing Squad - 145
- 2 Melta, Melta Bombs on Sgt
Attack Bike - 50
- MM

Venerable Dreadnought - 150
- HF, AC

Venerable Dreadnought - 150
- HF, PC

Venerable Dreadnought - 150
- HF, MM

2 Ravenwing Landspeeders - 130
- MM x 2

Predator - 95
- 2 x HB, Autocannon

Whirlwind - 85

Total: 2500

8 Scoring units (and pretty durable at that), quite a bit of short-ranged AT, quite a bit of anti-horde Dakka, no real long-range AT (but I'm ok with that as I have DS'ing termies and fast moving bikes). Verdict?

I take it by the lack of responses that everyone is simple awed by my super-awesome Dark Angels army.

Or you are all awed by the fact that I am taking Dark Angels to Ard Boyz...

Well...I'm not terrified by the list, but I think it has some potential.

Oh it's certainly a finesse list. The nice thing is how mobile the army is and the trick is to focus all your strength against just part of the enemy before they can bring their whole army against you.

A few mistakes though, and game over.

I like it. A lot. There's a lot of possible synergy between all your units. I like the idea of your two Land Speeders zipping around drawing fire away from the bikes. I love the Dreads despite the lack of extra armor.

My only question is, why aren't your terms mixed up more? Not worried about wound allocation? Or are you just fond of the TLC slicing and dicing with PF's wiping up what's left?

Well I have 4 groups in the 3 non-command termie squads: Sergeant with LC, PF/AC, CF/SB, 2 PF/SB. This works pretty well as the first casualty always gets put on the spare PF/SB dude and the CF/SB is pretty expendable as well. It works well enough for wound allocation and the two apothecaries make it really hard to take down several termies at once.

I see... two extra shots vs another close combat character... that could make a big difference, I should switch mine up to fit that as well...

So you're planning on keeping the Ravenwing Apothecary nearby as well? Clever... But do you think you are limiting yourself with their melta shots then? Why not plasma?

Either way, it looks pretty solid. Definitely a scare factor with that many scoring units. I look forward to hearing how you do. I'll throw up my 'Ard Boyz list once I finalize it. Maybe you can help me out with it should tweaks be necessary?

As a fellow Dark Angel. 5th Co. It does look intimidating to see all the Terminators and backed by the Ravenwing to type up the enemy and run screens for the terminators to get in close can be very effective. I wonder why not at least one cyclone launcher, just for a long range punch with 2 shots even to soften up troops with 2 frag shots. Should be a contender but watch out being bogged down in unnecessary melee combat.

That's a good question regarding long range AT but frankly, the armies I'm most worried about are the ones that are closing quickly on me to take me down in close combat (LR's with TH/SS, trukks/battlewagons full of Ork boyz, Nidz). For that I have a plethora of meltas on fast moving platforms and plenty of anti-horde shots. Against shooting armies like IG and Tau, I'd lose in a long range shooting match anyway so my best bet is to get as close as possible to them and take them out in assault/close range melta fire.

I just love the fact that you are taking them to 'Ard Boyz, good on ya. Good luck!

- Blackbone

Yeah, thanks. I think my chances in the first round are pretty good as I usually place pretty well in my local gaming group.

Subsequent rounds.... We'll see.

So with the mission's posted my army gives up 33 KP's in the final mission.

I can drop one attack bike, the Pred, the whirlwind, and combine the RW squad into a single unit (lose 2 meltas) and replace all that with a Landraider.

This would drop my KP total by 9 for the last mission but I'd lose some anti-horde, but gain a delivery system for a Termie Squad and a couple Lascannons.

What do you think?

You got some balls, buddy!

I have actually really come to respect double wing in the hands of a good player. I have a friend here who regularly wins with them.

I think you will do well.

I wouldn't sweat the KP's too much. You don't want to sacrifice KP's for killing power as in most cases having multiple independent units is a benefit. If you draw an Ork Horde, Nob Bikers, or something similar, you are just screwed as the KP disparity will be enormous. Trying to put a band aide on it by dropping a few really won't change that much.

I would go for the max fire power angle and just play your best game.

Good luck, buddy!

You actually only have 6 scouring units. You can only ever have 6 scouring units with DAngels. Sammael and Belial only make RAS and Term squads Troop choices, not Scouring. They are either Troop or "_____", not Count as Troop. Ergo, you can only ever have 6 scouring units VIA DAngels.

I'm bringing a list relatively close to this to My Prelim 'Ard Boyz. Not taking Apothecaries because I don't have the models, and I'm a really stickler about WYSIWIG personally. Not for my opponents, but for myself =P.

I've been playing Dual-wing since DAngels came out in 4th edition, and I've decided that a 10-man tac squad is ALWAYS necessary for myself.

List is as follows:

HQ:

Belial - 130pts
~Lightning Claws

Librarian - 145pts
~Terminator Armor

Elite:

(Term Lib will be here)
Terminator Squad - 220pts
~H.Flamer
~1x Lightning Claws
~2x SB/PF
~1x TH/SS

Troops:

Tactical Squad - 220pts
~Ten Man
~Melta Gun
~Missle Launcher
~Rhino

Tactical Squad - 220pts
~Ten Man
~Melta Gun
~Missle Launcher
~Rhino

Terminator Squad - 215
~3xTH/SS
~1x LC
~1x SB/PF

Terminator Squad - 215
~3xTH/SS
~1x LC
~1x SB/PF

Terminator Squad - 245
~1x Lightning Claw
~Assault Cannon
~2x SB/PF
~1x TH/SS

Terminator Squad - 245
~1x Lightning Claw
~Assault Cannon
~2x SB/PF
~1x TH/SS

Fast Attack:

Ravenwing Attack Squad - 240pts
~Six Man
~2x Melta Gun

Ravenwing Attack Squad - 240pts
~Six Man
~2x Melta Gun

Heavy:

Devastator squad - 165
~3x Plasma Cannon

I roommate jacked my Predators from me for his Salamander list, so I have to resort to Dev's =/. I needed some template anyways, and I might as well bring some anti-ap2 template while I'm @ it.

Comparing mine and yours, I think yours will do better, mainly because of the apothecaries.

I'm not trying to jack your post, but I would like your feed back on my list. I will give better feedback on yours once I think on it a bit more. I don't see a point in bring 3 man bikes, might as well get as many teleporter homers out there, and in as many squads as possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you can find a page where it says that Belly/Sammy make those squads Scouring, I will love you forever. Please prove me wrong !!! I would love to have a billion scouring units!

You can actually get four scoring units out of a full Ravenwing squad: 2 units of 3 bikes; attack bike; landspeeder tornado (which the codex says counts as a scoring unit, I guess it's one of the only or the only scoring vehicle in 5th edition). I don't know if the 'ard boyz rules would keep them from scoring or something, so correct me if I'm wrong.

@Rashim:

Pg 90 BRB: "An army's scoring units are all the units that come from it's Troops allowance."
Pg 79 DA codex: "If Sammael is in the army, Ravenwing Attack Squadrons may be treated as a Troops choice as well as a Fast Attack choice."

This is about as cut and dried as you will ever get from GW.

@Ozymandias:

Does the lack of psychic hoods concern you? If you dropped Sammael to free up an HQ slot, you would only lose scoring status on the two units of suicide melta bikers and the RW apoth (that one hurts!). Just something to think about. I love dualwing and I love your list. Best of luck at Ard Boyz!

gak, I just read that page, and for some reason I thought it said OR. Well me...

Still, Our landspeeders are not scoring, because they are vehicles, and Dangels codex does not specifically say they are scouring.

You've got to write up a battle report for this after the Ard Boyz. Do it for those who love the army, but are convinced they are forever cursed by GW. With the mission breakdown, the list looks surprisingly durable. Not sure about the Whirlwind, but YMMV.

Best of luck.

@ Rashim: I like the number of Termie squads you have and that was something I considered but I went with the Dreads because they have worked really well for me so far and I already have 6 troop choices.

Regarding the Speeder as scoring, you'll see mixed views on it. Frankly, I haven't made up my mind on it but since I rarely take it anyway it hasn't been an issue.

@Erratic Assassin: Yeah, I'm concerned about Psykers, mostly Eldar. Lash is pretty impotent against this list from the games I've played but Eldar Psykers are a huge pain. The problem with DA is that the Libbies are only LD 9 so either way I'm in trouble. My pure DW has a Librarian and I haven't been too impressed with the hood so I'd rather just take Sammael, who's, IMO, one of the best special characters in the game.

@Reecius: Ha, thanks buddy. I've been really impressed with Doublewing so far and my only loss has been to a full Plague Marine force with 2 Daemon Princes. That loss was due to my own stupidity and bad deployment and even then I had a strong chance of pulling a win.

@ Sarigar: I still love my Dark Angels, but I am building an IG force for tournament games. This doublewing is really fun to play though so I'm looking forward to it. I'll try to post a Battle Report or at least a summary after Ard Boyz. Hopefully I'll do well, I haven't played many games at this points level.

So sounds like I shouldn't make changes based on the last mission? I'll write up two army lists and probably make a decision the morning of based on my gut.

That seems fishy to me. Count as troops AND fast attack? So if you take 3 ravenwing squads, you've used up all your fast attack slots, and can only take 3 troops, because they're counting as both. Each squad takes 2 force org slots?

If you're wanting them to always score, that seems to me the only way it can be run - can't have your cake and eat it too, so to speak.

Now if you wanted them to count as either, then it depends. If you run them as troops choices, they score. If you don't, they don't. Still ends up with only 6 scoring units.

As far as landspeeders are concerned, the BRB says vehicles don't score - that's why mekboy all-dread lists can't win tournaments. You'd need to find a way around that.

They don't count as both, Belial and Sammael make Termies and Bike Squads troops respectively.

Regarding the Landspeeder, I don't have my codex in front of me but the argument goes that Codex overrules Rulebook and the codex specifically states that Ravenwing Attack Squads are "scoring units" therefore since the Landspeeder is part of the RWAS, it is scoring.

In my list above, all 4 DW squads are troops as are both the Bike Squads and the Attack Bikes. So, I have 8 scoring units.

Prior to Actually deploying, you have 6.

You are then forced to combat squad the A.Bikes, which makes in 8.

Wanted to clarify before people started trolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, As well as =/= and Spellbound =P!

Rashim wrote:Prior to Actually deploying, you have 6.

You are then forced to combat squad the A.Bikes, which makes in 8.

Wanted to clarify before people started trolling.

Forgive me if I'm misreading your post, but you also have the choice of splitting up the 6 man bike squads into 2 units of 3 bikes each, giving the list a potential 10 scoring units. Again, if you knew that & I'm missing your point, I apologize.

Why no Land Raiders?

Mookie

Spellbound wrote:That seems fishy to me. Count as troops AND fast attack? So if you take 3 ravenwing squads, you've used up all your fast attack slots, and can only take 3 troops, because they're counting as both. Each squad takes 2 force org slots?

The general interpretation was that deathwing and Ravenwing squads can be taken as either troops or elites/fast attack if the special characters are used.

also, here's what the codex has to say about scoring land speeders:

"Much like combat squads, the squadron's attack bike and land speeder are are purchased together and then deployed at the same time as the squadron's bikes, but from then on they always count as completely independent scoring units of one model."

Darth Badguy wrote:

Spellbound wrote:That seems fishy to me. Count as troops AND fast attack? So if you take 3 ravenwing squads, you've used up all your fast attack slots, and can only take 3 troops, because they're counting as both. Each squad takes 2 force org slots?

The general interpretation was that deathwing and Ravenwing squads can be taken as either troops or elites/fast attack if the special characters are used.

also, here's what the codex has to say about scoring land speeders:

Much like combat squads, the squadron's attack bike and land speeder are are purchased together and then deployed at the same time as the squadron's bikes, but from then on they always count as completely independent scoring units of one model."

I love you darth bdaguy. I've been looking for this sentence for a LONG time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darth Badguy wrote:

Rashim wrote:Prior to Actually deploying, you have 6.

You are then forced to combat squad the A.Bikes, which makes in 8.

Wanted to clarify before people started trolling.

Forgive me if I'm misreading your post, but you also have the choice of splitting up the 6 man bike squads into 2 units of 3 bikes each, giving the list a potential 10 scoring units. Again, if you knew that & I'm missing your point, I apologize.

Also, I fethed up on my math X.D. So much for being a computer science major?

Darth Badguy wrote:

Rashim wrote:Prior to Actually deploying, you have 6.

You are then forced to combat squad the A.Bikes, which makes in 8.

Wanted to clarify before people started trolling.

Forgive me if I'm misreading your post, but you also have the choice of splitting up the 6 man bike squads into 2 units of 3 bikes each, giving the list a potential 10 scoring units. Again, if you knew that & I'm missing your point, I apologize.

My bike squads are 3 man units. They are there to act as drop beacons for the Termies, after that they will either hold back and wait for a last turn objective turbo-boost or they will sacrifice themselves to take down a big heavy tank.

Mookie Blaylock wrote:Why no Land Raiders?

Mookie

Because one Landraider costs as much as 5 terminators and with the bikes' teleport homers I don't need the transport ability of the Land Raiders. This force works with the synergy between the Terminators and the Bikes with the Dreads, Predator, and Whirlwind all filling holes in the weaknesses of the army.

I think LR's have their place for sure and my pure DW army has 3 landraiders as delivery vehicles, but in this mixed force they are expensive and unnecessary.

Army Painter makes LRC's amazingly easy to paint with their Skeleton White Primer btw. Should look into it =D!

Rashim wrote:I love you darth bdaguy. I've been looking for this sentence for a LONG time.

While I'm flattered, and maybe I've even been a little curious at times, I have to say no.

Rashim wrote:Also, I fethed up on my math X.D. So much for being a computer science major?

No, that was me. That's what happens when you get a BA in English.

Sorry to bump this, but there's some good info here.

First off, Ozy, I like your first list. I wouldn't change a thing about it. There's enough synergy running that you can compensate for any "lost" kill points. You could always leave your tanks in reserver for the third game if you were super worried about them dying too soon (if at all).

I've always thought that the Speeder purchased with the Ravenwing squad was scoring, despite it having an armor value, as it is purchased with the squad and the codex says that it is independent and scoring. Is that how most play it? I've only had one dude in my gaming group complain about it and that's what's keeping me from buying Speeders as an upgrade as opposed to a Fast Attack squad.

I wouldn't sweat the psychic hood either. I was worried about it as well, but thought about the Doom/Fortune combo and then it hit me... if I'm allowing Banshees to get that close to my Terms, I'm doing it wrong. That, and there is enough anti-psyker stuff out there that almost makes the Libby a liability.

Either way, best of luck Battle Brother. I hope we're both able to bring the Dark Angels victory on Saturday. (And if you happen to have a moment, check out my 'Ard Boyz list too!)