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Made in us
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




After quite a bit of trial and error in the field of army building, I've decided to start with this smaller army list and eventually work my way up.

HQ
Commander: 125 points
Shas'el Crisis Suit
-Twinlinked Plasma Rifle, Cyclic Ion Blaster
-Hardwired Multitracker and Drone Controller (1 shield)
-Stimulant Injector

Elite
Squad 1: 65 points
(1) XV8 'Fireknife' Crisis Suit
-Twinlinked Plasma Rifle
-Targeting Array

Squad 2: 131 points
(1) Shas'vre XV8 'Firestorm' Crisis Suit Team Leader
-Burst Cannon, Twinlinked Missile Pod
-Hardwired Multitracker and Drone Controller (1 shield)
-Bonding Knife
(1) XV8 'Firestorm' Crisis Suit
-Burst Cannon, Missile Pod
-Multitracker

Troops
Squad 1: 60 points
(6) Firewarriors
-Pulse Rifles

Squad 2: 91 points
(1) Kroot Shaper
(9) Kroot Carnivores

Fast
Squad 1: 168 points
(4) Pathfinders
Carbines/Markerlights
(1) Devilfish
Burst Cannon, Smart Missile System
Disruption Pod, Multitracker, Targeting Array

Heavy
Squad 1: 108 points
(1) XV88 Broadside Battle Suit Team Leader
-Twinlinked Railgun, Smart Missile System
-Advanced Stabilization System
-Hardwired Black Sun Filter, Multitracker, and Drone Controller (1 shield)

748 Points

Matchups:

My shas'el would join my 'Fireknife' suit, granting them both shield drone protection

My pathfinder devilfish would pick up the firewarriors.

Considerations:

-Have HQ change setup to Plasma Rifle, CIB, Targeting Array
-Have 'Fireknife' suit change setup to Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Multitracker
(I don't like either of these options because currently they both sit at BS4, allowing me to make a single roll for both of them when firing, streamlining things a bit. I am a bit concerned that my current decision has me losing 2 high strength/mid range AP shots. However, the math does currently sit in my favor for dealing with Marines as long as my plasma is in range.)

-Have 'Firestorm' team leader downgrade to regular missile pod in exchange for Targeting Array.
(My current choice is a result from having very little anti-tank, and with only four missile pod shots, I wanted to up my odds with the twin-linking.)

-Consider Dropping Pathfinders in exchange for adding one suit to Firestorm Team.
-Consider Dropping Pathfinders/Downgrading Devilfish (remove Targetting Array, change SMS to Gun Drones) in exchange for adding one suit to Fireknife Team.
(Obviously, this would result in me getting a dedicated transport for the firewarriors. I'm just questioning the importance of pathfinders at this low of a points level.)

Concerns:

-Not enough anti-tank
I have only one major means of taking down heavier tanks, and that's my twinlinked railgun. If he goes down, that could spell trouble. Fortunately, I have a shield drone protecting him from insta-death, but even then, if he gets locked in CC or straight up dies, I'm going to have a very difficult time dropping 13/14 armor vehicles with only four missile pods.

-Not enough horde killing fire
The fire warriors are gonna be hiding in that devilfish, the pathfinders are merely firing marker lights, and the kroot will most likely be acting as a shield for the Broadside. That essentially leaves me with 4 suits and a transport doing all my shooting. I don't think I'll be having any trouble with stronger units/feel no pain, but against a mass of weaklings with no templates at my disposal, I am worried. I do feel that I have a mobile force that could run away quite a bit, but for how long?

-An expensive commander
125 points is a lot. But I feel that if I'm gonna put a CIB on the guy and shove him up front, he should at least be getting a FNP save.

Comments:

I can see it now, the first thing that's going through your mind is, "Farside, why the hell do you have a shaper? They are absolutely worthless! You should never under any circumstance field one! You could be running 3 more kroot instead!

My reply is this: Fluff. I love the idea of a Shaper (why would kroot be running around without one?), and if Tau didn't have the Kroot, I think I'd just go and pick a different army. If it means giving up 21 points so be it. At least I didn't go with the utterly worthless 6+ save upgrade that virtually every single weapon in the game is going to bypass. Just give me this one. I need it.

I don't really need my Firestorm Team Leader to be a 'vre, but I just didn't know where else to stick those 5 points. Same goes for the BSF. I basically have 10 points that I don't know what to do with/allow me the potential to change up my army. Maybe stick flechetes on the devilfish?

I'll be honest, a lot of my choices were for aesthetic reasons. The shaper, HQ(a commander with a plasma rifle on each arm and a CIB slung over his shoulder is a sexy thing indeed), and Firestorm team leader all come to mind when I say this. I want a good looking army, but if my choices (besides the shaper) are game breaking, I need to know.

From there, I don't have much else to say. I have a minimal number of shield drones protecting my 3 major squads from any instant death, my devilfish primarily screening for the Firestorm suits who are going to work on popping transports off the go, the pathfinders laying markerlights, and my hq unit up front dealing with terminators/monstrous creatures.

Let me know what you think! (that includes my layout)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/04/30 00:09:14


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Berwyn PA-US

Couple of things if I may,

For your Commander, go with the Plas, CIB, Target array setup. Same setup I use and in my opinion, better.

For your Crisis suits, Instead of the Firestorms try Deathrains (they're almost Deathrains as they stand now anyway), twin missile pods plus either targeting arrays or flamers. Transport popping fun from affar, plus flaming doom if someone gets too close. The Shas'Vre upgrade isn't worth it at that point level.

For your Broadside, ditch the Blacksun Filter. Btw if you could free up the points you could take a Railhead instead of the Broadside, helping with your no template concern.

 
   
Made in us
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




Looking at my own comments regarding fielding my units, and taking burst cannon range into account I did a little bit of modification to my army.

HQ
Commander: 112 points
Shas'el Crisis Suit
-Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, Twinlinked Burst Cannons
-Hardwired Multitracker and Drone Controller (1 shield)
-Stimulant Injector

Elite
Squad 1: 50 points
(1) XV8 'Firestorm' Crisis Suit
-Burst Cannon, Missile Pod
-Multitracker

Squad 2: 155 points
(1) XV8 'Fireknife' Crisis Suit Team Leader
-Twinlinked Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle
-Hardwired Multitracker and Drone Controller (1 shield)
-Bonding Knife
(1) XV8 'Fireknife' Crisis Suit
-Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle
-Multitracker

All other squads remain the same.

744 points

I took out the 'vre, just to make a point that I have these useless extra points. I could use them up and run TL missile pods or a BC/TA on my commander, but the burst cannons would *look so cool*! (my stupid desire for aesthetics coming into play again)

Once again, the commander would join the Monat suit and take the front, while "Squad 2" would sit back using the devilfish for cover.

This would essentially give me an additional missile pod for early transport popping(unfortunately both plasma rifles are downgraded, so I may have a tougher time with fnp/ monstrous creatures), actual usage of my burst cannons, and a much needed pie-plate (because I just don't see how I can feasibly fit a hammerhead into a 750 point army). I believe this would make for a more well rounded list, but I'm still not sure.

What do you guys think/what should I do with those 6(technically 9 if I dropped the BSF from my broadsides) points?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/04/29 20:45:17


 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior





5 miles north of Funkytown

Firstly, I think that kroot unit is illegal. I'm pretty sure that you have to have 10-20 Kroot in a squad. So that is your first concern.

Aside from that, you should really keep the pathfinders, b/c those 2 or so markerlight hits either boasts your suits to bs 5 (almost instant hit) or lower you opponents cover save to around 6+(almost instant wound). Those markerlights are very efficent.

J.

The best thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's far too late to stop reading it.
-Courtesy of TheBlueRedPanda


 
   
Made in us
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




mythological wrote:Firstly, I think that kroot unit is illegal. I'm pretty sure that you have to have 10-20 Kroot in a squad.

From what I can tell, the Shaper counts as an upgrade for a regular Kroot, (the equivalent of a Shas'ui for a group of firewarriors), which still leaves me with the required minimum of 10. Hounds and Krootox on the other hand wouldn't contribute to this number.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and if I am I can take the 9-10 points I have left over and devote them to adding another Carnivore to the squad.

So were my changes beneficial at all? Should I be running an AFP or stick to the original build with the CIB?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

I like the AFP, it's good anti-horde but you'll have to do a good job at eyeballing your movements and ranges to stay out of close combat.

I think he might be an upgrade too but it never hurts to have another carnivore in the unit...

The broadside can't take wargear (other than the 1 support system) unless he's a team leader. I didn't crunch the math to see if you paid for that though; just thought I'd mention it.

Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




agnosto wrote:The broadside can't take wargear (other than the 1 support system) unless he's a team leader. I didn't crunch the math to see if you paid for that though; just thought I'd mention it.

Thanks for catching that! I modified the details to include that he is in fact a team leader. (Without team leader status and all included hardwired wargear he would come in at 80 points)

So with an extra kroot making 10kroot+ 1shaper (just to avoid potential rules disputes) and the removal of the HW BSF on the Broadsides on my new AFP list, I would come in at 748 points without the ability to modify my commander to missile pods or a targeting array.

Although the idea of jumping within 18 inches to do the majority of my damage just to try to get outside of assault range AND into cover does worry me. Perhaps I can drop the multitracker from my broadsides once again allowing me the option of missile pods again. That or I could drop it and pick up another carnivore (lol).
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior





5 miles north of Funkytown

The Kroot shaper counts as one kroot, as he is and upgrade. That still leaves 9 more kroot to be filled.

The kroot hounds do not (emphasis mine) count as kroot. You can just replace the kroot hounds with kroot carnivores, 1 point extra for each. Yet I strongly urge you not to use a shaper, Just use the points for 3 more kroot/ kroot hounds. Way more points effective. But as you mentioned before, the shaper is for fluff, so I'll back off.

J.

The best thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's far too late to stop reading it.
-Courtesy of TheBlueRedPanda


 
   
Made in us
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




Ok, I just figured out that if I drop the HW BSF from my broadsides I can boost my Monat suit a bit. I'll enter my full revised army list for clarification.

HQ
Commander: 112 points
Shas'el Crisis Suit
-Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, Twinlinked Burst Cannon
-Hardwired Multitracker and Drone Controller (1 shield)
-Stimulant Injector

Elite
Squad 1: 59 points
(1) XV8 'Firestorm' Crisis Suit Team Leader
-Twinlinked Burst Cannon, Missile Pod
-Hardwired Multitracker

Squad 2: 155 points
(1) XV8 'Fireknife' Crisis Suit Team Leader
-Twinlinked Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle
-Hardwired Multitracker and Drone Controller (1 shield)
-Bonding Knife
(1) XV8 'Fireknife' Crisis Suit
-Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle
-Multitracker

Troops
Squad 1: 60 points
(6) Firewarriors
-Pulse Rifles

Squad 2: 91 points
(1) Kroot Shaper
(9) Kroot Carnivores

Fast
Squad 1: 168 points
(4) Pathfinders
Carbines/Markerlights
(1) Devilfish
Burst Cannon, Smart Missile System
Disruption Pod, Multitracker, Targeting Array

Heavy
Squad 1: 105 points
(1) XV88 Broadside Battle Suit Team Leader
-Twinlinked Railgun, Smart Missile System
-Advanced Stabilization System
-Hardwired Multitracker and Drone Controller (1 shield)

750 Points

For only 9 points I was able to add team leader status and upgrade my burst cannon to twinlinked on my 'Firestorm' suit. I'm going to have to face the facts that this team will be skirting the 18" marker if I'm ever going to get to use my mighty template, and burst cannons are perfect for the job at hand. I personally just don't see a boosted missile pod (via Targeting Array or TL) on my commander benefitting a team that is supposed to be focused on killing troops. Probably the only time this unit might even see action against a transport is turn one.

Am I completely wrong in this assumption? Should I devote the 5 points spent on the Hardwired Multitracker on my Broadsides to something else? Should I devote the 25+ points spent on upgrading my Devilfish to Warfish to something else as well?
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




HQ
Commander: 112 points
Shas'el Crisis Suit
-Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, Twinlinked Burst Cannon
-Hardwired Multitracker and Drone Controller (1 shield)
-Stimulant Injector


Interesting. He’s like a beefy Centurian build. If you want him like he is for coolness factor, I can try and leave him alone.

Elite
Squad 1: 59 points
(1) XV8 'Firestorm' Crisis Suit Team Leader
-Twinlinked Burst Cannon, Missile Pod
-Hardwired Multitracker


What? Why is he a teamleader? No wargear. Drop twinlink. Standard 50 point Firestorm please. Infact, with the trimmed points, you even get to take 2. One suit is a dead suit.

Squad 2: 155 points
(1) XV8 'Fireknife' Crisis Suit Team Leader
-Twinlinked Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle
-Hardwired Multitracker and Drone Controller (1 shield)
-Bonding Knife

(1) XV8 'Fireknife' Crisis Suit
-Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle
-Multitracker


Bonding knife? They have 4 total wounds. When would you ever expect to lose one and not both, and of anyone in the army they have a decent leadership. If a bonding knife goes anywhere it’s on the firewarriors to try and keep them on the field to hold objectives so you can maybe win a game =) Drop the twin link on the first guy. No need for team leader then also. Trim the fat. Keep the drone if you want. The Firestorms, if anyone, need the shield drone because they have to get closer. Switch it.

Troops
Squad 1: 75 points
(6) Firewarriors
Bonding Knife
-Pulse Rifles


Standard fare, be careful how you use them. Keep them in the Fish, and don’t use the fish till after your suits clear the field. With only two tiny scoring units, you need the guys to stay on the field. Bonding Knife needed.

Squad 2: 91 points
(1) Kroot Shaper
(9) Kroot Carnivores


So, you say no amount of kicking and screaming will fix this. Enjoy your shaper. =)

Fast
Squad 1: 168 points
(4) Pathfinders
Carbines/Markerlights
(1) Devilfish
Burst Cannon, Smart Missile System
Disruption Pod, Multitracker, Targeting Array


Pathfinders – Good deal, 4 works well enough at this and the 1000 point level, plus you need the transport.
Warfish- is too expensive! As the only tank on the field, and being AV 11, it will die. It’s the only way of getting your terribly fragile scoring units to an objective safely. It will for sure be a target. The slightly extra shooting is not worth the points you will lose when it blows up. Also, if you have gun drones, you can detach them and have them sit in front of something (like your broadsides) for the same 4+ save that the drone you spent 15 points on did. Instadeath aside. Go to Advanced Tau Tactica and look up the Reverse JSJ. Plus, it is free with the fish, so to speak. Cut the fat on the fish, play it smart on the table, let it float in the back until you need to rush up for the win (roughly turn 4)

Heavy
Squad 1: 105 points
(1) XV88 Broadside Battle Suit Team Leader
-Twinlinked Railgun, Smart Missile System
-Advanced Stabilization System
-Hardwired Multitracker and Drone Controller (1 shield)


So. This guy… A-Stabs on him, really? Where is he going that is so important he needs to move 3 inches a turn (on average) to get there. The only two weapons he has can shoot half the board or the whole board. The only direction he could ever go is forward (unless you didn’t set him up in the back like you should) and why would he ever want to go forward? That just means closer to being assaulted, or shot. The other odd option is deploy him forward and walk backwards for the sake of maybe being in range for the smart missile systems, and again just risking assault. Good placement means he doesn’t have to move, good usage means he should ever have to move. Save the 10 points. He shield drone is alright, seeing at a 750 game, there isn’t a lot of super threatening targets, and he is one. So, that one or two lascannons your opponent brings will be shot at this guy, and the drone will help. If you don’t want to use the ones from the devilfish, that is.


So, all that said. Here is the new and improved list. You need to cut the fat, and keep firepower in mind. Plus, none of it changes the models, so ‘coolness’ and fluff remains. We trimmed the fat, and even got you another whole suit in there. It is 750 points on the nose! Tell me what you think.

HQ: 112 pts.
Shas'el XV8 Commander
Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, Twinlinked Burst Cannon
Hardwired Multitracker and Drone Controller (1 shield)
Stimulant Injector

Elites: 244 pts.
(2) XV8 ‘Fireknife” Suits
Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle
Multi-tracker

(2) XV8 ‘Firestorm’
Team Leader
Drone controller (1 Shield)
Multi-tracker (One Hardwired)
Burst Cannon, Missile Pod

Troops: 166 pts.
(5) Firewarriors
(1) Shas’ui
Bonding Knife
Pulse Rifles

(1) Kroot Shaper
(9) Kroot Carnivores
Kroot guns

Fast Attack: 133 pts
(4) Pathfinders
Carbines/Markerlights
(1) Pathfinder Devilfish (remember, these are different from standard ones)
Burst Cannon, Gun Drones
Disruption Pod

Heavy Support: 95 pts
(1) XV88 Team Leader
Twin Linked Rail, Smart Missile System
Drone Controller w/ 1 Shield Drone
Hardwired Multi-tracker

750/750
   
Made in us
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




First thing of note, Devilfishes are AV 12.

I found that the potential 6" shift to the side on my broadsides could be very effective, if I wasn't running A.S.S., I'd be running a Targeting Array, and I've read all about the different comparisons.

I frequent ATT quite a bit, and I feel the reverse JSJ does not fit my play style at all.

I would have my commander attached to the firestorms, not the fireknives. Why would I need 2 shield drones protecting him at this level?

Essentially, by trimming the fat, I've lost four 5-5 cover ignoring shots, BS4 in addition to the ability to move more than 6 inches and fire on my Devilfish, the ability to shuffle my broadsides, a bonding knife, and twinlinking on both a missile pod and a burst cannon in exchange for one suit with a burst cannon and missile pod.

Honestly, I'm not too fond of this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/05 05:34:56


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Los Angeles

Farsidedown wrote:Essentially, by trimming the fat, I've lost four 5-5 cover ignoring shots, BS4 in addition to the ability to move more than 6 inches and fire on my Devilfish, the ability to shuffle my broadsides, a bonding knife, and twinlinking on both a missile pod and a burst cannon in exchange for one suit with a burst cannon and missile pod.
Remember, SMS doesn't *quite* ignore cover, it ignores LoS, big difference. Me, I like the Warfish too, SMS, Ta, MT, DisPod. I'd keep it, but several of Blackbones's other recommendations are good.

"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.

"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013

Quitting Daemon Princes, Bob and Fred - a 40k webcomic 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

How set on this list are you?

What are your model limitations?

Is there a particular reason your are running the army so suit heavy? I only ask because you insisted upon a fluffy shaper but are running a very unfluffy battlesuit to FW ratio.

Would you be open to alternative builds?

Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Los Angeles

Farsidedown wrote: XV8 'Firestorm' Crisis Suit Team Leader
-Twinlinked Burst Cannon, Missile Pod
-Hardwired Multitracker
Yeah, just go BC/MP/MT. And Blackbones is incorrrect, single suits do okay ... just gotta make sure he's got stuff to hide behind.

Farsidedown wrote:
(1) Kroot Shaper
(9) Kroot Carnivores
While my one converted shaper model has earned itself a reputation, surviving and holding marines into prolonged assaults, and thus named "Pappy"( after Major Greg 'Pappy' Boyington), I think a shaper in a min unit is a waste. I use shapers in groups of 14+. Eh.

Farsidedown wrote:(4) Pathfinders
Odds are two ML hits per round of shooting. What can you really do with 2 MLs? Not much. Most guys I see run 6 to 8 PFs, meaning 3 to 4 ML hits ... far more useful, a little BS boost here, a little Cover Save take away there. I run the full 8 PFs.

Farsidedown wrote:Broadside Team Leader
-Twinlinked Railgun, Smart Missile System
-Advanced Stabilization System
-Hardwired Multitracker and Drone Controller (1 shield)
Ah, be generous, give him 2 SDs.


Except for keeping the Warfish, I'd go with a lot of BlackBones's recs, emphasizing anti-Infantry, at this point level.

Oh, someone further up mentioned that "the vre upgrade isn't worth it at this level". I counter that with 'vres aren't *ever* worth it. Their Stat increases do nothing versus MEqs, and against GEqs, barely even things up. Vre upgrades are only good to acquire CiB and AfP, and even then, those weps should be given to the HQs.

"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.

"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013

Quitting Daemon Princes, Bob and Fred - a 40k webcomic 
   
Made in us
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




Brothererekose wrote:Remember, SMS doesn't *quite* ignore cover, it ignores LoS, big difference.

Snap, you're right! The rules on the cover thing are kind of weird though. Do they mean that SMS would ignore cover granted by turbo-boosting if the Fish was firing directly at them?

By the way, I think I need to reiterate that the HQ is attached to the Monat Firestorm suit.

I did revise my list a bit, dropping the multitracker from the broadsides (honestly, when is he going to be firing his sms at the heavies he's supposed to be targeting?), picking up a hardwired black sun filter (I had 3 points left over) and upgrading my firestorm to twinlinked missile pod, burst cannon, hardwired multitracker.

I'd honestly like to have a shas'ui with bonding knife for my firewarriors, but that would most likely mean losing twinlinking from missile pods on two of my suits, and I just can't do that for a squad that's gonna be coming from reserves/jumping into my devilfish and staying in it for the rest of the game.

Brothererekose wrote:Oh, someone further up mentioned that "the vre upgrade isn't worth it at this level". I counter that with 'vres aren't *ever* worth it.

I'm not running any 'vres. I also find them to be worthless.

focusedfire wrote:How set on this list are you?

What are your model limitations?

Is there a particular reason your are running the army so suit heavy? I only ask because you insisted upon a fluffy shaper but are running a very unfluffy battlesuit to FW ratio.

I'm primarily building this list around the initial army box. (except for the stealths-I don't like them and find them to be incredibly weak) That's my primary reason for running the minimum 10 kroot, since I plan on converting one into a shaper. My intention is to build this army towards a pretty kroot/suit heavy army (but not too many suits-I have my limit), drastically increasing my kroot force at the 1k point level. Eventually, I could feasibly (and for the sake of ignoring fluff at the 750 point level) drop the shaper in addition to reducing the firestorm suit to regular/dropping the hardwired black sun filter in order and have a decent sized force of 15 kroot, but that's not something I really plan to do starting up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/05 06:53:48


 
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy




Winston-Salem/Chattanooga

Farsidedown wrote:
Brothererekose wrote:Remember, SMS doesn't *quite* ignore cover, it ignores LoS, big difference.


Snap, you're right! The rules on the cover thing are kind of weird though. Do they mean that SMS would ignore cover granted by turbo-boosting if the Fish was firing directly at them?

By the way, I think I need to reiterate that the HQ is attached to the Monat Firestorm suit.

I did revise my list a bit, dropping the multitracker from the broadsides (honestly, when is he going to be firing his sms at the heavies he's supposed to be targeting?), picking up a hardwired black sun filter (I had 3 points left over) and upgrading my firestorm to twinlinked missile pod, burst cannon, hardwired multitracker.

I'd honestly like to have a shas'ui with bonding knife for my firewarriors, but that would most likely mean losing twinlinking from missile pods on two of my suits, and I just can't do that for a squad that's gonna be coming from reserves/jumping into my devilfish and staying in it for the rest of the game.


No. Removing the LoS requirement only means that enemy units who would normally benefit from being partially out of LoS (such as models hiding behind a low wall) would not get a cover save. Therefore all other cover saves which do not rely on LoS such as skimmers moving flat out, disruption pods, smoke launchers, area terrain, etc. are not affected and are taken as normal.

Good call ditching the multi tracker on the broadsides, though you might consider a hardwired target lock for the team leader. As longfangs have proved, be able to split fire is an invaluable ability.


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Farsidedown wrote:First thing of note, Devilfishes are AV 12.

I found that the potential 6" shift to the side on my broadsides could be very effective, if I wasn't running A.S.S., I'd be running a Targeting Array, and I've read all about the different comparisons.

I frequent ATT quite a bit, and I feel the reverse JSJ does not fit my play style at all.

I would have my commander attached to the firestorms, not the fireknives. Why would I need 2 shield drones protecting him at this level?

Essentially, by trimming the fat, I've lost four 5-5 cover ignoring shots, BS4 in addition to the ability to move more than 6 inches and fire on my Devilfish, the ability to shuffle my broadsides, a bonding knife, and twinlinking on both a missile pod and a burst cannon in exchange for one suit with a burst cannon and missile pod.

Honestly, I'm not too fond of this.


AV 12 doesn't matter, it's the only tank and will take every bit of fire from any heavy weapons your enemy has. You think a lascannon or meltabomb or even the massivly fielded melta gun itself cares about AV 12? A generic 750 CSM list has 4-5 melta guns. Oh but it's ok though, becuase you can move over 6 inches and shoot If you play your commander on the other squad then switch the drone. That hardly invalidates the point, and is simple symantics. If you played your broadside smarter, you wouldn't need to move him. You lost a bonding knife on a unit that didn't need it and gained it on a unit that DID need it. Two burst cannons and two missile pods is more effective than one twin linked burst cannon and missile pod. Learn math. What you do have is a pseudo fluff based list and strict adherence to the idea that your "cool" suits are right. I'm sorry your play style doesn't include easy and effective tactics. I'm not very fond of that.

You can play how ever you want, but if you aren't going to listen to reason or better lists, then why bother asking people?

Edit: Fixed quote box

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/05/05 09:56:40


 
   
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Blackbones wrote:
AV 12 doesn't matter, it's the only tank and will take every bit of fire from any heavy weapons your enemy has. You think a lascannon or meltabomb or even the massivly fielded melta gun itself cares about AV 12? A generic 750 CSM list has 4-5 melta guns. Oh but it's ok though, becuase you can move over 6 inches and shoot If you play your commander on the other squad then switch the drone. That hardly invalidates the point, and is simple symantics. If you played your broadside smarter, you wouldn't need to move him. You lost a bonding knife on a unit that didn't need it and gained it on a unit that DID need it. Two burst cannons and two missile pods is more effective than one twin linked burst cannon and missile pod. Learn math. What you do have is a pseudo fluff based list and strict adherence to the idea that your "cool" suits are right. I'm sorry your play style doesn't include easy and effective tactics. I'm not very fond of that.

You can play how ever you want, but if you aren't going to listen to reason or better lists, then why bother asking people?

Edit: Fixed quote box


First off, that's AV12 in addition to a 4+ cover save(what's the point of reverse JSJ when I'm using a disruption pod? Then I'm just leaving suits out in the open when they shouldn't even be targetable). You make it sound like I could so much as breath on a rhino and it would explode by comparison. Your point is a lot of meltaguns, but if I'm letting the enemy get far enough into my line that they're melta-ing my devilfish, then I've already lost. (and it's up to 12 inches and shoot)

Second off, All the firepower in the world is not going to be directed at my devilfish. It's honestly the least of their worries with a squad with cover ignoring/bs boosting markerlights, 2 squads of very killy suits, and a railgun to deal with. (I guess second least if you count the kroot)

Third, if I have a stationary gun, it's quite easy for enemy armies to position themselves via blocked los to force me to waste my fire on something unimportant. A slight shift to the left or right can definitely push things in my favor. There's no "playing my broadside smarter" once I've set him down at that point.

Fourth, I haven't just moved a bonding knife from one unit to another. The fireknives needed to have a team leader for the shield drone. The knife was just five points. I'd still have to pull 10 points just to make it so my 'tucked away' firewarriors could be bonded. That and suits only have an LD of 8. 4/11 times they're going to fail their check. What happens if I get hit by two instakill shots and my drone fails it's invuln. save? That leaves me with close to a 40% chance of losing my completely untouched suit. That's just something I'm not comfortable with.

Fifth, it's not just the loss of twinlink. It's the loss of mobility on two units in addition to that just so I can cram another suit into my list.

Sixth, only one of my suits is "cool". My hq- and I don't really find it efficient enough to jam missile pods on him. (Although at 6 more points, I could run them, drop the Monat suit to regular and have 5 points left over-but I think this would give me less encouragement to treat him more aggressively.

Seventh, I have made it clear that the fluff of the shaper is balanced by the limitations of the starting box, and I would most likely eventually run 14+ kroot in my list. This isn't pseudo-fluff. My 1k point list which I've posted contains 18 kroot with a shaper.

Eighth, I've only really received two army modifying suggestions: To run Deathrains (which I didn't like because they would severely hamper my killing capacity-and grant me more antitank which I didn't need), and to make my list purely about cramming as many suits as I can into it. I have made modifications (more so on the 1k list) based on people's suggestions.

Ninth, you basically say your list is obviously better, and that I'm stupid for not paying attention to your changes. Why the hell do people run Warfishes all the time if they're so bad? You've done little to convince me of your perspective, even with all your talk, and saying stuff like "learn math" (when you've conveniently left out everything else I'm giving up) or "if you played smarter" (when you've never seen me play) just makes me ignore your points all the more. A little courtesy in the face of disagreement can take you a long way.

Now, if anyone else has some thoughts, I'd be happy to hear them!

Edit: Oh and I'd be losing twinlinking on 2 missile pods now, not a missile pod and a burst cannon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/05 12:04:19


 
   
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Farsidedown wrote:

First off, that's AV12 in addition to a 4+ cover save(what's the point of reverse JSJ when I'm using a disruption pod? Then I'm just leaving suits out in the open when they shouldn't even be targetable). You make it sound like I could so much as breath on a rhino and it would explode by comparison. Your point is a lot of meltaguns, but if I'm letting the enemy get far enough into my line that they're melta-ing my devilfish, then I've already lost. (and it's up to 12 inches and shoot)

Second off, All the firepower in the world is not going to be directed at my devilfish. It's honestly the least of their worries with a squad with cover ignoring/bs boosting markerlights, 2 squads of very killy suits, and a railgun to deal with. (I guess second least if you count the kroot)


Ok let’s see. One, it is the only tank. It has one of your only two meager scoring units inside of it. Game calls for holding 3 objectives? Great, I pop your (only one armor point better) armor transport and you are basely out of the runnings to win. Every anti tank lascannon, multi-melta (opps that’s 24 inch range, I can hit you with it first turn, or oh hey blood angel jump pack melta dudes, I mean really you think it takes 4 turns to get within melta range? Yeah right) and any other gun will be shooting at it. It will fall, reliably. You can spend the extra points for the “warfish” if you want, it will hardly ever pay off, if it is still alive turn two you are either lucky or playing someone not worth basis a list off of. You can think your armor 12 tank with a 4+ save will last, and you will lose consistently.

Farsidedown wrote:
Third, if I have a stationary gun, it's quite easy for enemy armies to position themselves via blocked los to force me to waste my fire on something unimportant. A slight shift to the left or right can definitely push things in my favor. There's no "playing my broadside smarter" once I've set him down at that point.


There is playing your broadside smarter. If you can’t look at terrain and compare to their army list and figure out how they will mostly likely deploy, and then place your suit to counter, you should be playing a different tabletop. Plus, considering you need cover (unless you really think your drone will save you from losing your broadside for more than a round or two of shooting) the number of places you can play him is normally down to 2-3, and from there it isn’t hard to figure out what is best. You can pay for points to make up for bad gaming if you want, I just suggest you don’t.

Farsidedown wrote:
Fourth, I haven't just moved a bonding knife from one unit to another. The fireknives needed to have a team leader for the shield drone. The knife was just five points. I'd still have to pull 10 points just to make it so my 'tucked away' firewarriors could be bonded. That and suits only have an LD of 8. 4/11 times they're going to fail their check. What happens if I get hit by two instakill shots and my drone fails it's invuln. save? That leaves me with close to a 40% chance of losing my completely untouched suit. That's just something I'm not comfortable with.


Again, it is just ridiculous to have the longer ranged unit with the knife. You can spend all these little fatty 5 and 10 points on each unit, and ultimately lose out on points per firepower on a large scale. Your fire warriors take 2 wounds, they will reliably run off the table. Remember the 3 objective game? You lost one of your two scoring units, so you lose. Unless you think the no armor save kroot will save you. Keep it on the suits if you want. As your firewarriors run screaming, you suits won’t win you the game. The whole process of “ok knife on the long range suits, oh hey plus a drone” is just point sink after point sink that wiser playing and some logic will remedy. The firestorms need more attention.

Farsidedown wrote:
Fifth, it's not just the loss of twinlink. It's the loss of mobility on two units in addition to that just so I can cram another suit into my list.


You say “learn math” is an issue. Well. By “learn math” I mean why not take some time to actually look at the numbers. You are playing inefficiently and spending points to buffer bad “positioning” that you seem to need mobility to make up for. Your suits move 12 and jump 6, most shoot 18+. What mobility are you looking for? Honestly looking at the number should get you to realize the points are spend unnecessarily and more firepower is a better (and more statically sound) plan. I guess it was better than saying “learn to play”, I was trying to give you some credit.

Farsidedown wrote:
Sixth, only one of my suits is "cool". My hq- and I don't really find it efficient enough to jam missile pods on him. (Although at 6 more points, I could run them, drop the Monat suit to regular and have 5 points left over-but I think this would give me less encouragement to treat him more aggressively.

Seventh, I have made it clear that the fluff of the shaper is balanced by the limitations of the starting box, and I would most likely eventually run 14+ kroot in my list. This isn't pseudo-fluff. My 1k point list which I've posted contains 18 kroot with a shaper.


Having a shaper at all is fluffy and not competitive. Between the two, this is a fluff list, not a competitive one. That’s just the bottom line. You don’t take “cool” or “fluffy” units in a hard numbers and gaming winning list. You have stated you want to, and you can, feel free, but don’t get mad when people point it out.

Farsidedown wrote:
Eighth, I've only really received two army modifying suggestions: To run Deathrains (which I didn't like because they would severely hamper my killing capacity-and grant me more antitank which I didn't need), and to make my list purely about cramming as many suits as I can into it. I have made modifications (more so on the 1k list) based on people's suggestions.


You’ve already decided your list is untouchable and chosen to retain your obviously inferior choices over multiple people taking their time to point out it’s flaws. I again refer back to “why even bother” because I personally have dumped over an hour into these responses I could have must better used doing something more productive (like helping someone who might actually listen to advice).

Farsidedown wrote:
Ninth, you basically say your list is obviously better, and that I'm stupid for not paying attention to your changes. Why the hell do people run Warfishes all the time if they're so bad? You've done little to convince me of your perspective, even with all your talk, and saying stuff like "learn math" (when you've conveniently left out everything else I'm giving up) or "if you played smarter" (when you've never seen me play) just makes me ignore your points all the more. A little courtesy in the face of disagreement can take you a long way.


I invite you to find where I called you stupid. I’m sorry you feel stupid by having people point out flaws in your list. Honestly if you can’t take criticism then I suggest not using boards. Learn the math of your list and learn to play smarter tactics are both perfectly reasonable suggestions behind modifying a list.

Farsidedown wrote:
Now, if anyone else has some thoughts, I'd be happy to hear them!


Honestly I think you have decided you don’t want help. I myself am not going to waste any more time here.

Farsidedown wrote:
Edit: Oh and I'd be losing twinlinking on 2 missile pods now, not a missile pod and a burst cannon.


Learn math.
   
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blackbones wrote:Ok let’s see. One, it is the only tank. It has one of your only two meager scoring units inside of it. Game calls for holding 3 objectives? Great, I pop your (only one armor point better) armor transport and you are basely out of the runnings to win. Every anti tank lascannon, multi-melta (opps that’s 24 inch range, I can hit you with it first turn, or oh hey blood angel jump pack melta dudes, I mean really you think it takes 4 turns to get within melta range? Yeah right) and any other gun will be shooting at it. It will fall, reliably. You can spend the extra points for the “warfish” if you want, it will hardly ever pay off, if it is still alive turn two you are either lucky or playing someone not worth basis a list off of. You can think your armor 12 tank with a 4+ save will last, and you will lose consistently.

Excuse me, but how many lascannons do you see at 750 points? Let's look at some simple math (aha!) 2/3 shot of hitting, 1/2 shot of penetrating, 1/3 shot of destroying, and 1/2 of ignoring cover. On average, it should take 18 lascannon shots outside of 12" just to kill my devilfish. A meltagun is even lower in strength, so unless it's in melta range, it's just about as useless. Plus, my devilfish isn't even holding my troops off the break, they're coming in from reserves most likely around turn 3.

blackbones wrote:There is playing your broadside smarter. If you can’t look at terrain and compare to their army list and figure out how they will mostly likely deploy, and then place your suit to counter, you should be playing a different tabletop. Plus, considering you need cover (unless you really think your drone will save you from losing your broadside for more than a round or two of shooting) the number of places you can play him is normally down to 2-3, and from there it isn’t hard to figure out what is best. You can pay for points to make up for bad gaming if you want, I just suggest you don’t.

So where are they pulling these shots from to kill my broadsides when they're all directed at an empty devilfish? I think you completely missed what I was saying there. Of course you're going to place him in an optimum location, but when your opponent takes advantage of los blocking terrain, what then? A.S.S., for only 10, points cuts down these "fire free" lanes, giving your opponent even fewer options, and may even save your suit an entire turn before being assaulted by outflanking units. Let's not ignore that those vehicles either firing or carrying units that are supposed to be firing on my devilfish are being shredded by his railgun.

blackbones wrote:Your fire warriors take 2 wounds, they will reliably run off the table...

If they're reliably running after losing 2 guys, what's the point in dropping 15 "fatty" points on a bonding knife so that they won't run after losing 4? Of course there's no way I can contest an objective with my suits, and there's no way my kroot can be granted a 2+ cover save by going to ground in the woods. Why does the firestorm need more attention? It's being granted a shield drone by my hq! You talk about how inaccessible my fireknives are, yet they're most likely chilling out with my tank! And no shield on them? What, am I supposed to hope that if they get targeted by a couple krak missiles, they're simply going to make their cover save?

blackbones wrote:What mobility are you looking for?

I don't know, maybe mobility for both my devilfish and my broadsides...

blackbones wrote: Your suits move 12 and jump 6...

Ok I'm gonna stop you right there. I don't think you even play Tau. Suits move 6 and assault 6. I'm new to the game and I even know that. I'm not even gonna go over the rest of your post. You said it was a waste of your time, and it's surely a waste of mine. You go on and on about how you know so much, and how your list is so damn effective, yet I see a cheesy army based exclusively around its barebones suits. I don't like it, and you go apesh- on me. Literally, you went from excusing units because of fluff to outright attacking me for my desire to have fluff (when I've already clarified that with time and another box of kroot I could be running a squad of 12-15-effectively removing the possibility of adding another suit to the list.) I even asked if the commander was too extremely fluffy and what I should do to modify him if so. Excuse me if I decide to think for myself when somebody posts a suggestion, rather than immediately format my list to match their expectations.

...and here's another bit of info for you: 2 tl missile pods+ BS4 sms vs 3 missile pods+burst cannon= (3) 7-4 + (2.7) los ignoring, superior range 5-5 hits vs (3) 7-4 + (1.5) 5-5 hits. Learn Math.

Now that THAT is out of the way, this would be my slightly more kroot heavy list (feel free to swap the shaper out for 4 regular carnivores(15 total)- or 3 carnivores(14 total) and a tl missile pod on the Commander, leaving me at 749 points.)

HQ
Commander(attached to Elite Squad 1): 112 points
Shas'el Crisis Suit
-Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, Twinlinked Burst Cannon
-Hardwired Multitracker and Drone Controller (1 shield)
-Stimulant Injector

Elite
Squad 1: 50 points
(1) XV8 'Firestorm' Crisis Suit
-Burst Cannon, Missile Pod
-Multitracker

Squad 2: 155 points
(1) XV8 'Fireknife' Crisis Suit Team Leader
-Twinlinked Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle
-Hardwired Multitracker and Drone Controller (1 shield)
-Bonding Knife
(1) XV8 'Fireknife' Crisis Suit
-Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle
-Multitracker

Troops
Squad 1(riding in Pathfinder Devilfish): 60 points
(6) Firewarriors
-Pulse Rifles

Squad 2: 105 points
(1) Kroot Shaper
(11) Kroot Carnivores

Fast
Squad 1: 168 points
(4) Pathfinders
Carbines/Markerlights
(1) Devilfish
Burst Cannon, Smart Missile System
Disruption Pod, Multitracker, Targeting Array

Heavy
Squad 1: 100 points
(1) XV88 Broadside Battle Suit Team Leader
-Twinlinked Railgun, Smart Missile System
-Advanced Stabilization System
-Hardwired Drone Controller (1 shield)

750 points
   
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@Farsidedown-While I understand your irritation and even agree with a lot of what you said, you shouldn't let people get you riled like that. Not good for the digestion.

Also, in your reply to black bones you underestimated the effectiveness of the meltas. Multi-meltas are about the same as lascannons outside of 12" but meltas can only fire at a range where the DP is no longer a factor. Combine that with AP1 and yeah, they can be a problem. I think your list is decent but think you could fit in a higher VoF and a bit more meat to the troops.

Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

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focusedfire wrote:@Farsidedown-While I understand your irritation and even agree with a lot of what you said, you shouldn't let people get you riled like that. Not good for the digestion.

Also, in your reply to black bones you underestimated the effectiveness of the meltas. Multi-meltas are about the same as lascannons outside of 12" but meltas can only fire at a range where the DP is no longer a factor. Combine that with AP1 and yeah, they can be a problem. I think your list is decent but think you could fit in a higher VoF and a bit more meat to the troops.

Sorry, I got to read it pretty early in the day, and it had me fuming when I finally got to respond.

I guess since MultiMeltas actually have the capacity to destroy on a glance, you are correct there.

Most likely I will end up running around 14 kroot (for a glorious 42 attacks on the charge), but since I need a greater VoF, do you think I should be switching my fireknives to a less expensive build? I can't see myself outright dropping the broadsides (if someone decides to show up with an AV13vehicle, I'm dead in the water-even AV12 would be difficult for my S7 Missile Pods), even if I was picking up fusion blasters (I absolutely do not like the thought of shoving my suits within 6" of a vehicle)

What do you think?

Edit: If you think it's game breaking for me to run a broadsides at this level and I would be much better off running suits with fusion, I am willing to consider it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/06 04:11:33


 
   
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Alright, lets take a look.

1) I know it has already been addressed but my extensive experience in squandering points on shield drones before I wised up forces me to tackle the subject. IMO, Shield drones should only go on command squads and Broadsides. The others telling you to drop the points out of your 2nd Elite team are correct. Drop the Shas'vre, 2nd miss pod, bond knife, Shield Drone, and move the the MT to a hard point. This nets you 38 pts.

2)If your going to join your Commander, as he is, to another squad then give him the bonding knife. That is because, as he is, if he joins the monat Firestorm losing the drone forces a moral check. Give him the bond knife and the extra shield to make the unit really beefy. that is 18 points out of your 38. Leaves you 20pts extra.

3)Your commander and elites are backwards on their weapon load outs. What I mean is that if you are paying 20 points for a plasma rifle, "Do you put it on the BS 3 model or the BS 4 Model. Same goes for your miss pods.
With the points I've gleaned so far I wold suggest reorienting/reconfiguring these squads to possibly save a KP. You have the following options of where you have two squads and 3 KP or 1 squad and 2 KP:

Option one: The 2 Squad 3 KP build that allows for greater board coverage.

HQ- Shas'el w/PR, MP, MT, BK, HWDC + 2 SD's & Bodyguard-1 Shas'vre w/PR, MP, TA, HWMT= 204pts

Elite- 2Shas'ui, BC, FL, MT= 84 pts

New list 288 pts versus the old lists 317 pts= 39 extra points
And your hq is much more durable and doesn't start the game vulnerable


Option two: The 1 Squad 2 KP build that allows for a more durable unit

HQ-Shas'el w/ PR, MP, MT, BK HWDC + 2 SD's = 125 pts

Elite- Shas'vre w/ PR, MP, TA, HWMT & 2 Shas ui w/ TLMP, TL= 180

New list 305 pts versus old list 317 pts= 12 extra points
This may seem to have a lower VoF but the effectiveness of the shots makes up for this.

These extra points can go into your troop to give you extra shots and meat in the units, give you extra PF's. Or you could scrap the PF's and take the extra points for another broadside while giving the FW a dedicated transport that is dumbed down a little.

It is getting late, Look these ideas over and play around with the list a little. Will catch ya later. Hope this helps

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/23 13:04:18


Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

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focusedfire wrote:...That is because, as he is, if he joins the monat Firestorm losing the drone forces a moral check.

I thought the bonding knife only applied if his unit dropped below 50%, and if the firestorm died as well, he would just resume being an IC.

I was looking at your recommendations, and I was just mulling this build around in my head. I'm not to fond that it has me running 5 suits at the 750 point level, but it does increase my VoF a bit.

HQ: Shas'el w/ AFP, TL Burst Cannons, HW Multitracker, HW Drone Controller (1shield), Stim Injectors (attached to Firestorms)

(2) Firestorm suits w/ Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Multitracker

(2) Deathrain suits w/ TL Missile Pod, Targeting Array

318 points (yes, it is 1 point more, but I can turn one of my kroots into a hound to compensate)

Since my second team is no longer protected by a shield drone, I figured I could stick them as far back as possible where they can just lob missiles. I'm typically not too fond of Deathrains, but I feel with this loadout they kind of work, granting my single Broadsides the potential freedom to deal with something other than transports, like enemy heavy units.

Where I lose 2 plasma rifles and a BS3 TL Missile Pod, I gain a suit, 1 Burst Cannon, and 2 BS4 TL Missile Pods.

I guess the question here is: How important are those two plasma rifles?

Once again, I'm just testing the waters with this.
   
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Farsidedown wrote:Excuse me, but how many lascannons do you see at 750 points? Let's look at some simple math (aha!) 2/3 shot of hitting, 1/2 shot of penetrating, 1/3 shot of destroying, and 1/2 of ignoring cover. On average, it should take 18 lascannon shots outside of 12" just to kill my devilfish. A meltagun is even lower in strength, so unless it's in melta range, it's just about as useless. Plus, my devilfish isn't even holding my troops off the break, they're coming in from reserves most likely around turn 3.


*sigh* No really. You need to learn to do math. Your numbers are completely wrong.

MeQ Lascannon:

BS 4 - 2/3 hit (66.67%)

Front Armor 11 versus Strength 9:

2/3 Pen (50%)
1/3 Glance (16.67%)

Average End Results:

12% chance to not move
8% chance to not move and shoot
8% chance to lose your precious weapon upgrades
8% chance to never move again
6% chance to turn into a wreck
6% chance to explode

Assuming not moving doesn't hurt you, and considering multiple losses and immobilized as being wrecked, a lascannon has a roughly 14% chance AFTER you do a 4+ cover save to render your tank useless. That means, at best ~4 strength nine or equivalent guns, at worst one: being the only tank, that is not hard. Not to mention exploding has a 25% chance to kill each Fire Warrior inside, average 2 losses, 50% chance to fail leadership. Too bad we didn't have a bonding knife, huh? One scoring unit means you will mostly like lose 66% of standard missions. Good luck.

Farsidedown wrote:So where are they pulling these shots from to kill my broadsides when they're all directed at an empty devilfish? I think you completely missed what I was saying there. Of course you're going to place him in an optimum location, but when your opponent takes advantage of los blocking terrain, what then? A.S.S., for only 10, points cuts down these "fire free" lanes, giving your opponent even fewer options, and may even save your suit an entire turn before being assaulted by outflanking units. Let's not ignore that those vehicles either firing or carrying units that are supposed to be firing on my devilfish are being shredded by his railgun.


If you need ASS to compensate, go for it. Most people would save the 10 points for something more effective.

Farsidedown wrote:If they're reliably running after losing 2 guys, what's the point in dropping 15 "fatty" points on a bonding knife so that they won't run after losing 4? Of course there's no way I can contest an objective with my suits, and there's no way my kroot can be granted a 2+ cover save by going to ground in the woods. Why does the firestorm need more attention? It's being granted a shield drone by my hq! You talk about how inaccessible my fireknives are, yet they're most likely chilling out with my tank! And no shield on them? What, am I supposed to hope that if they get targeted by a couple krak missiles, they're simply going to make their cover save?


The bonding knife keeps the scoring unit on the field, a scoring unit that will consistently lose moral on average dice (if they don't just outright die). You can try to run them without one, and you will lose them more often then not. Again, Good luck.

Farsidedown wrote:Ok I'm gonna stop you right there. I don't think you even play Tau. Suits move 6 and assault 6. I'm new to the game and I even know that. I'm not even gonna go over the rest of your post. You said it was a waste of your time, and it's surely a waste of mine. You go on and on about how you know so much, and how your list is so damn effective, yet I see a cheesy army based exclusively around its barebones suits. I don't like it, and you go apesh- on me. Literally, you went from excusing units because of fluff to outright attacking me for my desire to have fluff (when I've already clarified that with time and another box of kroot I could be running a squad of 12-15-effectively removing the possibility of adding another suit to the list.) I even asked if the commander was too extremely fluffy and what I should do to modify him if so. Excuse me if I decide to think for myself when somebody posts a suggestion, rather than immediately format my list to match their expectations.


I guess I could be overly specific for a "new" player and clarify it is 12 inch total move, 6 being a jump, but apparently you will plug your ears and not listen anyways. Very mature As I said before, you can run fluffy units if you want, I provided something more efficient. Take it or leave it. Your personal attacks I will ignore.


Farsidedown wrote:...and here's another bit of info for you: 2 tl missile pods+ BS4 sms vs 3 missile pods+burst cannon= (3) 7-4 + (2.7) los ignoring, superior range 5-5 hits vs (3) 7-4 + (1.5) 5-5 hits. Learn Math.


Your math is wrong, again. I will give you the correct math.

2x BS 3 Suit with TL Missile Pods and a BS 4 SMS versus MeQ

.83 average unsaved wounds from pods
.59 average unsaved wounds from SMS

1.42 total kills for 56 points, or, .025 kills per point

3x BS 3 Missile Pods and one Burst Cannon versus MeQ

.83 average unsaved wounds from pods
.33 from burst cannon

1.16 total kills for 36 points, or, .032 kills per point

Yours is less effective. Plus, if you look at max end, mine can kill 9 models (think GeQ or less) and yours can only kill 8. Smart Missiles Systems do not have superior range to missile pods, and missile pods do not ignore line of sight. Infact, with 3 pods to your two, I have more long range fire power than you do.

The point of this post was to show you, despite your talk, that you are wrong on your numbers. If your numbers are wrong, so is your battleplan, because you are playing under false assumptions.

EDITS: Quote boxes and clerifications

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2010/05/06 14:56:36


 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

Farsidedown wrote: I thought the bonding knife only applied if his unit dropped below 50%, and if the firestorm died as well, he would just resume being an IC.



Problem is that the drone counts towards unit strength and in such a small unit it will likely be the first thing to go, thus forcing a moral check. If you lose both the firestorm and the drone, the commander must still lake the test and abide the results. In the section about IC's it says that if thier "Retinue" dies they go back to being an IC but does not specify such for when the IC has joined a unit. The Retinue is a grey area because the section fails to mention anything about unit strength and regrouping, but the chapter is pretty clear that if the IC joined another unit it will have to take and abide by the morale/leadership tests.



Farsidedown wrote:I was looking at your recommendations, and I was just mulling this build around in my head. I'm not to fond that it has me running 5 suits at the 750 point level, but it does increase my VoF a bit.

HQ: Shas'el w/ AFP, TL Burst Cannons, HW Multitracker, HW Drone Controller (1shield), Stim Injectors (attached to Firestorms)

(2) Firestorm suits w/ Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Multitracker

(2) Deathrain suits w/ TL Missile Pod, Targeting Array

318 points (yes, it is 1 point more, but I can turn one of my kroots into a hound to compensate)



Problem here is that while improving VoF it is still leaves the army unbalanced/light in the Toops. Another thing to look at is the weapon ranges and what they mean for battlesuit survivability and how these ranges affect the effective VoF by allowing you engaging the enemy at greater ranges which means more rounds of firing. This is why deathrains and Fireknives are so popular, they pretty much allow you to engage the enemy from first turn on while keeping your suits out of harms way.

Also, About the AFP. At the 750pt level you have a lot of manuveuring room on a standard game table at so there isn't really much chance of hoardes and swarms dominating the table. IMO, I think your trying to cram to much into the list. If you really feel like you need a S4 AP5 Ignores Cover weapon then flamers do the same job better for less points. You may not like getting close but if your needing such a weapon then it is for anti-troop/objective clearing purposes where your going to need to be close enough to screen your units/contest the objective. You put the flamers on cheap suits with BC's & MT's, then use this unit in the higher risk objective clearing role while your troops follow right behind..



Farsidedown wrote:I'm typically not too fond of Deathrains, but I feel with this loadout they kind of work, granting my single Broadsides the potential freedom to deal with something other than transports, like enemy heavy units.



There you go, inter-unit support.



Farsidedown wrote:Where I lose 2 plasma rifles and a BS3 TL Missile Pod, I gain a suit, 1 Burst Cannon, and 2 BS4 TL Missile Pods.

I guess the question here is: How important are those two plasma rifles?



That is the question. For a possible answer, I want to run a build by you. take from it what you want. The list starts with an adjusted "Option One" from my previous post:


HQ- Shas'el w/PR, MP, SG, HWMT & Bodyguard-1 Shas'vre w/PR, MP, TA, HWMT
189

Elite- 2Shas'ui, BC, TL-FL
78

Troop-8 FW + 1 Shas'ui w/ BK
105

Troop-10 Kroot
70

FA-4 PF + D-fish w/ SMS, DP , MT, TA
168

FA-2 Piranha w/FB, TA
140

In this build the FW Camp out back with the PFs and command squad while the Kroot hop in the transport and run forward with the cheap crisis team. The Piranha come in fast for the cover save and to set up for a kill shot on anything real tough. If your not sold on the Piranha you can set up the broadside and dump the extra points into the troops.

This list is following the ideas of your earlier lists so use this for ideas or as is. If I was writing a list for myself the troops would be either closer to full strength or a third unit on the table, and there would be an IonHead on the field. Not telling you to run these, just expressing that the list above is an attempt to build a more efficient version of your previous lists.

Let me know what you think

Later, ff

Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
Made in us
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




Blackbones, I thought you said you weren't gonna post anymore. I'd appreciate it if you actually held true to your comments.

I'm not even going to address anything you said, because I don't care, I'm not going to get myself riled up over your caustic comments. I'd be too busy having to deal with your terrible "semantics" (12 inches vs 6-6 is very different-that's 6" you haven't subtracted from your range), your disheartening knowledge of bonding knives, and your belief that a transport merely designed to protect my firewarriors, who aren't even in it when you expect it to explode at the end of turn one, and put some fire down range is dead if it so much as gets shaken. Blah, blah, blah points per kill without factoring those you spent on the suit, or that the sms is supposed to be outranging the burst cannon. And let's completely ignore my newest builds to rehash arguments that are old and done.

Oh look, I accidentally did address some of your stupider stuff. But enough of that. I'll now politely ask you to gtfo, while I at least gain some realistic pointers from focusedfire.

Speaking of which...
focusedfire wrote:HQ- Shas'el w/PR, MP, SG, HWMT & Bodyguard-1 Shas'vre w/PR, MP, TA, HWMT

I'm trying to figure out, what is your reasoning for running a shas'vre bodyguard vs a team leader (at 5 points less)? Don't they just gain an additional point to initiative/access to special equipment?

Also, what about a CIB? I realize it's almost entirely focused around landing 6's on 'to wound' with MEQ's but at 5 points cheaper than a PR (losing 6" to range though) and the potential to wound on average one and a quarter 3-4 (firewarrior equivalent) units, do you think that might have a better place in my build? I realize it doesn't mix too well with missile pods, but I'm just tossing it in to the mix as food for thought.

Also, is it just me, or does it seem like Tau weapons are very well designed to kill Tau troops?
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

Farsidedown wrote:
focusedfire wrote:HQ- Shas'el w/PR, MP, SG, HWMT & Bodyguard-1 Shas'vre w/PR, MP, TA, HWMT

I'm trying to figure out, what is your reasoning for running a shas'vre bodyguard vs a team leader (at 5 points less)? Don't they just gain an additional point to initiative/access to special equipment?



The Retinue was there should you wish to swap for the CIB & AFP, run other special equip, need to deep strike the HQ, and at 750 pts exactly the 5 points had no where to go.


Farsidedown wrote:Also, what about a CIB? I realize it's almost entirely focused around landing 6's on 'to wound' with MEQ's but at 5 points cheaper than a PR (losing 6" to range though) and the potential to wound on average one and a quarter 3-4 (firewarrior equivalent) units, do you think that might have a better place in my build? I realize it doesn't mix too well with missile pods, but I'm just tossing it in to the mix as food for thought.


The CIB was designged for use against Hoardes. IMO, I really don't think it earns it points cost as a MEQ/TEQ killer, though it does synergize well with the PR when used on a BS 5 Commander. You run a Shas'el commander equipped with a PR, CIB, TA, HWMT, and ect. ...... and he will do a decent number on most infantry. This commander is usually teamed up with a firestorm that has TA and HWMT. If you run this as your HQ then you can run your 110 pt deathrains as your elite. You will have no template or blast weapons but that is how the game goes, everylist has a weakness.


Farsidedown wrote:Also, is it just me, or does it seem like Tau weapons are very well designed to kill Tau troops?


Actually, Tau weapons are designed to kill all troops. People tend to underestimate their FW's but they are reasonably priced infantry with kick a$$ rifles. 12 FW firing on Termies withe BS 3 will hit 6 and wound 4 and after saves kill. 667 of the time. Bump them up to BS 4 and they will average a kill a turn on termies. Against MEQ this squad kills a marine per turn at BS 3 and about 1.5 per turn at BS 4. Now take those nubers and apply rapid fire, then think of 2 squads firing on the same unit. Their rifles are even good against light vehicles that have a front AV of 10. Now take a squadron of 3 of these vehicle and fire a full unit of FW's at them. You'll get 6 hits, of which one should be a pen and one should glance. Now have the unit jump out and rapid fire with a 1 pt of BS boost from the pathfinders. that same unit now does 16 hits which comes to 2.67 pens and 2.67 glances. not bad for basic infantry. They can glance AV 11 into being unable to fire and carry grenades that do a good job of destroying heavy armour. Don't under estimate the FW's.

Oh yeah, while I'm talking about vehicles.....

@Blackbones- you need to redo your devilfish math because their front AV is 12, not 11.


Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Farsidedown, your list looks good to me. A few minors things I might change:
- I generally don't take PF in games less than 1000. They just don't make up their points when I use 'em.
- I would consider dropping the TL of your plasma on the commander, and changing him to a Shas'o. For a very minor increse in points you get better LD, BS, WS... especially for the CIB, which relies on a high BS to be effective.
- Finally, I usually use a Hammerhead instead of a broadside at that points level, but if the XV88 works for you its fine.

And to blackbones, it looks like you've never even played against Tau, let alone as them. You're also acting way to worked up and aggressive over a game of toy soldiers. I would suggest checking both your codex and your attitude before posting.
   
Made in us
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




Well I played my first game against eldar running my latest list with the 2 firestorms and 2 deathrains, but I tried out the CIB. It really sucked, because he was running 2 fireprisms (is that common at this low of a point level?) a minimal squad of dire avengers in a kitted out wave-serpent, rangers, and jetbikes. I essentially got stomped due to the fact that I didn't realize those damn fireprisms shoot nothing but cover ignoring templates(after zooming 12" across the board!), he infiltrated his rangers without telling me he was going to, he was practice rolling his dice, Oh! and his entire list was in German. I was then absurdly unlucky with my rolls. My boosted broadsides was rolling nothing but 1's. The eldar player rolled a 6 on an AP1 glance (his very first shot at my dfish), wrecked, and of course completely blocking one side of the building I was trying to shoot from behind. Unfortunately, this entire game seemed for my suits to be either: get behind that building and take potshots if you can (he eventually wised up and just stuck his fire prism at the back of his board and out of range for me while creeping up out of jsj range with his serpent) or face the storm, somehow pray to god he scatters (he won't) and hope that he rolls 1's for wounding. It may have been fun for him, but it was an absolutely upsetting cheese-fest for me. (With that list he should have just driven right up to my suits and blown them all to hell. Turn 1.

What did I get out of it?
-Firewarriors, even 6 rapid firing can be pretty impressive. They came in from reserves and absolutely stomped the rangers. I'll try to work it so that I'm running 8 at this level now. (I like using them as a response team to any units trying to infiltrate, I just need to remember to get my devilfish to their location to pick them up.

-Kroot suck without cover. That's obvious enough. So even if I'm running 15 at this points level, if the other guy has templates, even going to ground in the woods for 2+ isn't going to help them. For now, I'm thinking about what to do with them. I love them so, but they were done by the end of turn 2. (in my next partial game, however, they took a pretty large amount of fire, and with the 2+ stuck it out)

-The pathfinders did their job. My opponent was not only very busy dealing with them, they got out a total of 3 hits (they got templated at the top of turn one) before they were wiped out. Guaranteeing that my broadsides were hitting their mark (even if they ended up sucking) I like the ability to infiltrate into the most useful of cover, especially on spearhead where they are essentially delaying my opponent from even heading towards my corner the first few turns. (same in my space marine game-dropping a marker, boosting my hq unit to BS4/5, and drawing a lot of fire that they ignore via cover)

-The deathrains were great. They could reach out and touch anything on the board. Unfortunately for the vast majority everything on the board was AV12 and cover. I don't ever feel they were in enough danger to warrant a shield drone (until they got pie plated)

-The firestorms were ok, unfortunately almost the entire game they were hiding behind the building so they wouldn't get templated (something I was very fearful of considering he rolled 'hits' 90% of the time.) A missile pod here or there once again didn't do much. However, when he finally decided he wanted to close in with his dire avengers, I ripped about 6 of them to shreds in one round of fire.

-The CIB failed me. first time it got shot: 5,3,1,1,1. Two measly hits. 2,3. No wounds. The next round it did better, scoring 2 kills (one was rending), but I feel for a weapon that's practically tailored to kill eldar, it flopped. I almost wish I had that AFP when he clumped up his DA's as they poured out the back of his wave serpent. (note:in my next unfinished game against space marines-this bad boy did however score an impressive 2 rending hits right off the go. It makes me feel like this can be a very good TakeAllComers weapon. I think I just need to play this squad-with it's 3+ armor saves and shield drone-more aggressively in the first turn, seeing that they probably won't be at the top of my opponent's priority list)

-The A.S.S. payed off. I was able to keep my invaluable broadsides behind the building, allowing him to be free from fire the top of turn one, and then walk him out to deliver his payload. The skitter from side to side allowing me to focus on one ship while blocking los from the next was great. I think had my rolls not been so shoddy, this game would have played out very differently, with me taking command of the field with my mighty dakka unit.

-Unfortunately-there isn't a ton I can say yet about my devilfish yet. I was in fact dealing with an S10 ap1 blast on it, and a guy who was pulling some super solid (practiced) rolls. (I did however get to use it for the one turn against the Space Marines, and it acting like a 12" moving screen for my deathrains while still laying down those 4 BS4 5-5 shots was nice.

All this said and done, I'm not going to base all my decisions on one (or two) battles. However, I will be taking a closer look at how remotely efficient some of my units are and may make changes soon.

Edit: I realize this is a bit of a battle report, but it's all about influencing my army decision. In addition, I've added some afterthoughts concerning my partial battle against space marines.

So, to sum it up, missile pods are great. The deathrains are probably staying. I do want to try out plasma rifles on my hq unit still. Kroot sitting in the woods aren't going to work all the time. Pathfinders seem to work really well, as a decoy and BSboosting/Cover removing team, but I'm still trying to decide if they're worth 48 points(most likely) 3 suits can make for a pretty big footprint. I'll never run four in the same group. Like the broadside, but against an AV12+ heavy list, I may have problems.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/05/07 13:34:31


 
   
 
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