A cloud of smoke that shoots?

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**Deadshane1**

Smoke Launchers- Vehicle fires them off "During its Move". Vehicle counts as obscured during enemy's next "firing Phase".

Get first turn
Scout Move Baal Predator 18" up.
Fire off Smoke during this "Move"
Begin Turn
Move/Shoot Baal Predator at enemy
Enemy begins turn
Fires at "Obscured" Baal Predator

?

**Monster Rain**

Yeah, I think that about covers it.

Smoke Launchers say that they're used after the vehicle moves. I don't see why this wouldn't apply to scout moves.

**honorguard**

'Move' is ambiguous. But I expect that at least 80% of the players you'll meet will take it as 'Move'(ment phase), rather than 'Move'(ment). There is no movement phase in Scouting, there's just some movements. Now, whether you feel like arguing and forcing your point on those 80 is up to you.

No, I don't have it on a page of RAW.

**Kilkrazy**

SRB p.62 Smoke Launchers
Once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them.

The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers, but will count as obscured in the next enemy Shooting phase, receiving a 4+ cover save.

(Edited for length.)

**Monster Rain**

The rules don't say anything about the Movement Phase.

On page 62 of the BRB it says that they are deployed "after completing it's move." Unless a Scout Move isn't a move, I think there's a pretty solid case for it.

Ninja'd!!!!!!1!

**Ludovic**

But claiming you can shoot and then still receive a cover save is just as bad as saying you can turboboost in the scout move and then still get a cover save even if you act normally on yoru turn, i.e. will get you laughed at for trying to pull it off even if it is an oversight by the rules writers.

But nonetheless you are allowed to use your smoke launchers in your scout move, as it only specifies after a "move" rather than in the Movement Phase. So if your opponent goes first you can have a 4+ cover save.

**GMMStudios**

Its because it says "move" not Movement or Movement Phase.

**Monster Rain**

Hmmm...

Now that I really see what the OP is getting at, it doesn't seem right. I guess it helps to read the thread closely.

**GMMStudios**

And the OP is off it says during its move not during its Move.

Actually quite a big difference.

**Kilkrazy**

I would argue that the scout move is part of the pre-game set-up.

The game does not begin until the first player turn, so the phrase "once per game" precludes the option to pop smoke during scout moves.

**Alerian**

Kilkrazy wrote:I would argue that the scout move is part of the pre-game set-up.

The game does not begin until the first player turn, so the phrase "once per game" precludes the option to pop smoke during scout moves.

+1

**GMMStudios**

I can see where you are coming from - but I would argue the game starts as soon as models are deployed and you start moving them.

**nosferatu1001**

You would be wrong, as Step 5: Start the Game! is after scout moves.

**Kilkrazy**

GMMStudios wrote:I can see where you are coming from - but I would argue the game starts as soon as models are deployed and you start moving them.

Your position is logical however SRB p86 says that Start the Game comes after Deploy forces.

(Deployment of infiltrating and scouting units clearly isn't within the normal turn sequence.)

**GMMStudios**

I understand that. I'm just not sure if we can get that literal with it.

I'd like to hear gwars opinion where the heck is he?

**Gwar!**

I just woke up.

I agree that it says move, and not movement phase, so it is unclear (unlike Flat out and Scout Moves).

However, the rule also says "The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers, which could be interpreted that you cannot use the smoke launchers outside the normal turn sequence, which the scout move is.

-Shrug- Chalk this one up to GW being run by lobotomized chimps rather than having 3 or 4 internet fans proofread their products.

**GMMStudios**

Never thought about the turn bit it is iffy

**Lordhat**

Gwar! wrote:I just woke up.

I agree that it says move, and not movement phase, so it is unclear (unlike Flat out and Scout Moves).

However, the rule also says "The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers, which could be interpreted that you cannot use the smoke launchers outside the normal turn sequence, which the scout move is.

-Shrug- Chalk this one up to GW being run by lobotomized chimps rather than having 3 or 4 internet fans proofread their products.

I agree here.
Either the Scout move is:
1. NOT part of any turn, in which case Smoke launchers may not be used
Or
2. The scout move is included as part of turn one, in which case the launchers may be used afterwards, but firing may not be conducted by the vehicle until the start of that player's second turn shooting phase.

I would be inclined to play it as 2.

**EmpBobo**

I think as long as you are getting the 4+ cover save from the smoke you should not be able to fire other weapons on the tank, just like Lordhat's #2.

**Alerian**

Pg 86 makes it clear that the game does not start until AFTER infiltrate and scout moves. (Step 5)

If we follow the steps we see:
1. Scout moves do not happen during the game; they happen before it starts
2. Smoke can be used once during the game.
3. Since the game has not yet started when you make your Scout move, you cannot pop smoke.

**Kilkrazy**

GMMStudios wrote:I understand that. I'm just not sure if we can get that literal with it.

I'd like to hear gwars opinion where the heck is he?

The way of interpreting it depends partly on the player's attitude.

In my view, the smoke rules are clearly intended to allow a vehicle to defend itself with a free guaranteed cover save, and have the disadvantage of not being able to shoot in the same turn. The proposed scout move smoke pop before Turn 1 gets around this disadvantage, so in my view it should not be permitted.

The p.86 Organising and Battle table is given as straight RAW that supports my interpretation. Obviously it only works if people accept my interpretation of the table.

This brings us two steps away from the in-game effect. People have to take up opposing positions on their interpretations of two rules, in order to support the effect they want to see in game.

**Spellbound**

I'm just glad it says "after its move". That means I CAN decide to use smoke launchers during the shooting phase, after finding my tank has nothing to shoot at and might as well.

Obviously I can't fire weapons then use smoke [as I can't fire in the turn I use smoke] but since shooting phase is still after my movement, it's nice to still have the option to fire smoke well into the shooting phase, rather than having to make that call before rolling dice.

**Gwar!**

Spellbound wrote:I'm just glad it says "after its move". That means I CAN decide to use smoke launchers during the shooting phase, after finding my tank has nothing to shoot at and might as well.

Obviously I can't fire weapons then use smoke [as I can't fire in the turn I use smoke] but since shooting phase is still after my movement, it's nice to still have the option to fire smoke well into the shooting phase, rather than having to make that call before rolling dice.

No, it means that as soon as you stop moving it, you have to choose to use the smoke THEN, before moving another unit.

**Spellbound**

Is that RAW?

**Gwar!**

Spellbound wrote:Is that RAW?

Yes it is RaW. "After it's move" is not the same as "after it's movement phase" or "after it has moved". After it's move means exactly that, after it's actual move, it must declare to use the Smoke then.

**Trasvi**

Hmm. I just thought of an interesting situation.
When is a deep striking vehicle allowed to use its smoke launchers? And how would this interact with Daemonhunters Mystics?

**kartofelkopf**

Hmm... that's never been an issue before, as Drop Pods don't have launchers. Thanks, Blood Angels!

Very interesting.

**Cake Farts**

Slightly off topic here, but if you can pop smoke in the scout move, then wouldn't that justify popping smoke in a consolidation move? My understanding is that my dreadnoughts can not consolidate and pop smoke. So I don't see how you can scout move and pop smoke.

**Lordhat**

What do Scout Moves have to do with consolidation?

**Arctik_Firangi**

Gwar! wrote:I just woke up.

...

-Shrug- Chalk this one up to GW being run by lobotomized chimps rather than having 3 or 4 internet fans proofread their products.

You sort of wear out the premise when you apply it to absolutely everything.

The Scout USR states that "...any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move... (remain 12" away etc)"

A scout move is definitely a move. I'm still not convinced, though, and am erring towards Kilkrazy's opinion. If the game hasn't started, it can't be done.

With regards to consolidation and the like, anything that is a move is probably a move. More interestingly, though, I didn't know that you had become a proponent of a restrictive ruleset, Gwar! Maybe I'm thinking of some other robot that likes drinking and stealing things...