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Hi All,
Can necrons which are eligable for WBB rolls, but are all 'down' be teleported through the monolith portal to get a second WBB if none of them have stood back up from the first WBB roll?

e.g. a 10 strong warrior squad is gunned down by bolters, all are within range of another warrior squad (6"), a monlith (18") and eligable to make WBB rolls. The necron player makes his rolls and doesn't get any back on their feet. The squad is still all 'down', can the necron player now teleport them through the portal for a second WBB?

Is there a minimum number of warriors who have to make there WBB rolls to qualify the squad to be teleported?


Thanks in advance.

While it may be controversial, I think that a unit composed entirely of downed Necron models is still a unit of Necrons, and thus eligible to use the Monolith's portal for a re-roll.

I usually play it that they can't, mostly because I want to finish a game without a huge rules argument, though I can certainly see why it would be possible.

Now I may be confused, and there are few rules to support my opinion one way or another, but here it is.

The gunned down squad is no longer a unit as it has been destroyed by shooting and has no non-casualty members. The reason I think this is so is because the necrons that might have made their initial WBB roll would have joined the squad within 6" and not stood back up on their own. By this I would argue that you can't teleport the squad that is down for a second chance at WBB, because they aren't still a squad.

bringing them thru the monolith allows you to re-roll your WBB. If they are all down they don't get to roll in the first place, unless they are near another like unit then it's fine.

Elnicko5 wrote:Now I may be confused, and there are few rules to support my opinion one way or another, but here it is.

The gunned down squad is no longer a unit as it has been destroyed by shooting and has no non-casualty members. The reason I think this is so is because the necrons that might have made their initial WBB roll would have joined the squad within 6" and not stood back up on their own. By this I would argue that you can't teleport the squad that is down for a second chance at WBB, because they aren't still a squad.

The argument for the downed Necrons still being a unit is simply that nothing says that the models leave the unit. Because they haven't left the board, and nothing says that they've left their unit, then the unit still exists to travel through the portal because it still has models in it.

In addition, the "Damaged Necrons ignore the normal coherency rules ..." statement in the We'll Be Back! rules also supports the conclusion that the damaged Necron models are still part of a unit.

Interesting question. Downed necrons are members of their own unit for sure, else you couldn't bring them along for a reroll when teleporting the standing ones. But a unit that's been totally wiped out? Hmm...

If any that made the first WBB roll would have joined another unit... Would it make sense that you teleport the standing unit and the downed necrons get to tag along for a reroll? That way you get the reroll without the bonus of the necrons standing up as a separate squad somewhere else.

But the Necrons aren't part of any other units until they join them when they roll WBB.

And don't forget, WBB says "ignored for all normal game purposes." Someone could argue they aren't still part of the unit because they are "ignored" for that.

Question, can you re-roll the re-roll of the WBB though the monolith if you have a second one?

RobPro wrote:But the Necrons aren't part of any other units until they join them when they roll WBB.

And don't forget, WBB says "ignored for all normal game purposes." Someone could argue they aren't still part of the unit because they are "ignored" for that.

If you play using the GW FAQ, then see the question about fallen Necrons attached to a unit which is falling back. According to GW, the downed Necrons are attached to units.

Once a unit of Necrons has been completely downed, they are no longer a unit under any circumstance. Even if some models are able to stand back up, they will have to join a new unit as there is no longer any unit for them to be a part of.

As such, you cannot teleport them as only units can be teleported.

yakface wrote:
Once a unit of Necrons has been completely downed, they are no longer a unit under any circumstance. Even if some models are able to stand back up, they will have to join a new unit as there is no longer any unit for them to be a part of.

As such, you cannot teleport them as only units can be teleported.

I agree here with Yakface. Had a single model survived, you could do it.

Yeah. Your squad is gone. It is no longer a unit. Had a single one made his WBB role, you could roll for the entire squad. I play Necrons, and it sounds cheesy to pull a fully dead squad out of the air.

Gwar! wrote:

yakface wrote:
Once a unit of Necrons has been completely downed, they are no longer a unit under any circumstance. Even if some models are able to stand back up, they will have to join a new unit as there is no longer any unit for them to be a part of.

As such, you cannot teleport them as only units can be teleported.

I agree here with Yakface. Had a single model survived, you could do it.

I double this agreement. A fully downed unit of necrons is no longer a unit of its own. Citing the FAQ ruling concerning downed models in a fleeing unit is immaterial, as that is a totally different situation; if there are models fleeing, then the unit still exists. However, the rules are quite clear that if a unit is gunned down entirely and is still eligible for WBB, the models that make the WBB roll will join the nearest like unit and become part of that. The downed models are not part of that second unit. They are also ignored for game purposes, so I do not believe they can be selected as a unit to be moved through the Monolith.

Gavo wrote:Question, can you re-roll the re-roll of the WBB though the monolith if you have a second one?

No, the rule is very clear that you can not chain teleportation no matter how craft you are.

Kevin949 wrote:

Gavo wrote:Question, can you re-roll the re-roll of the WBB though the monolith if you have a second one?

No, the rule is very clear that you can not chain teleportation no matter how craft you are.

Not to mention the BRB where it says No Re-rolling Re-rolls!

To answer the question at hand (as it is also somewhat answered in the codex and the FAQ), if an entire unit is dead there is only one way that unit can get back up, if there is another same type within 6" of them. When any of the completely dead unit gets up, they join the other unit. The rule for the power matrix states any units in a squad that failed their WBB can be teleported through for another chance at WBB. Since there is no squad left, you can't teleport them through.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

headrattle wrote:Yeah. Your squad is gone. It is no longer a unit. Had a single one made his WBB role, you could roll for the entire squad. I play Necrons, and it sounds cheesy to pull a fully dead squad out of the air.

See above, there has to be one model that has not died for the unit to be teleported through. If they all die, they will join a separate squad when they get back up, that initial squad is done and will never be back.

yakface wrote:
Once a unit of Necrons has been completely downed, they are no longer a unit under any circumstance. Even if some models are able to stand back up, they will have to join a new unit as there is no longer any unit for them to be a part of.

As such, you cannot teleport them as only units can be teleported.

This fits in with what I thought. So really the only hope for all 'downed' units is traditional like unit within 6" or tomb spider within 12" and like unit on the table. Teleport is only going to work if there is at least one sole survivior from the abused unit.

Wait, so a unit that is all-down, and has another unit of the same models within 6" gets to roll WBB. That's pretty standard.
But if they're all-down and some models succeed at this WBB roll, they're forced to join the unit that allowed their WBB roll? What page of the 'Cron Dex is that on? I'm familiar with the Tomb Spyder allowing a WBB'd model to join a different unit, but not this 6" version.

Also, if an all-down unit has models revived by WBB, and there is more than one like-model squad within the 6", can you divide up the revived models between those units?

It's in the We'll Be Back entry at the very beginning of the armoury section. Well, one page before it.

And no, the models go into the closes unit. If they are identically close, pick one unit and stick with it.

This. This right here is why I eagerly await Necrons getting Feel No Pain replace the convoluted mess that is We'll Be Back.

You need to have 'non down' models from the unit in order for the 'down' models to be eligible for teleportation....

If downed units are considered part of their original unit when down, why would they case to be part of that unit if the entire unit is down?

Because there is nothing to represent that unit anymore, the unit (Set) to which the downed necrons belonged to no long exists, it's now an empty set and the down models want a set with at least one 'up' necron in it.

Aduro wrote:This. This right here is why I eagerly await Necrons getting Feel No Pain replace the convoluted mess that is We'll Be Back.

Why? This is actually something is pretty clearly stated in the WBB rules and the monolith power matrix explanation. Everyone interprets or reads things differently, so nothing will ever ever be perfectly worded, not even FNP.

Aduro wrote:This. This right here is why I eagerly await Necrons getting Feel No Pain replace the convoluted mess that is We'll Be Back.

I think WBB although complicated compared to FNP is still a better advantage. AP3 or even 2 or 1 will only kill you outright if they are Strength 8 and above, and even this can be got around with the orb.

AP3 has NO effect on FNP and you ability to take the save.

"no saves of any kind" means that, if a terminator can save it you are allowed FNP against it.

But the squad getting killed isn't a terminator and is getting hit with a weapon that will never allow them an armor save.

I find it fascinating that people can't see how the FNP wording is also convoluted and left up for interpretation but they argue living metal til they're blue in the face and it is the same basic mis-wording that causes that argument.

Kevin949 wrote:But the squad getting killed isn't a terminator and is getting hit with a weapon that will never allow them an armor save.

Sorry, but that is not what FnP says. It says it is negated by wounds that never allow an armour save to be taken, not never allow the unit to take an armour save.

Kevin949 wrote:But the squad getting killed isn't a terminator and is getting hit with a weapon that will never allow them an armor save.

I find it fascinating that people can't see how the FNP wording is also convoluted and left up for interpretation but they argue living metal til they're blue in the face and it is the same basic mis-wording that causes that argument.

The FNP wording is entirely clear.

The fact that people read...
"wound against which no armour save can ever be
taken (like wounds from power fists, Dreadnought close
combat weapons, rending weapons that roll a 6, Perils
of the Warp, failed dangerous terrain tests, etc)."
...and think "AP3 totally fits that category!" is not a problem with the wording of the rule.