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ok sorry guys if this has been asked before but just wanting to know how others work our LOS for the Hvy Bolters.. the over hanging wings are the source of a few discussions within my group

i play it anything from the edges of the wing to toward the front and rear of the hull are clear game.. and if the target is close enough to be fired at under the tip of the wing that is cool too.. shooting through or pretending the wing is not there is a no go - true LOS

some gamers is know feel that they should be able to fire through the wing

please tell me i am right

LOS for sponsons is traced from the weapon mount, and relies on the physical placement and actual rang eof movement available to the weapon.

So if you can point the weapon at a target, and draw an unobstructed LOS, it has LOS.

LOL!! thats what i try to tell them - so i tell them not to pay the points for them if they think they are a waste of points

Keep in mind, though, that it is also assumed that weapons can swivel 45 degrees vertically, regardless of how they are modelled.

So if the Valk is on the new, uber-flight base, it can possibly fire under the wings. I haven't seen the model up close, so wouldn't know for sure...

Yeah.

On the new larger "flight" base, the guns do have los to the ground under the wings (pretty much following the inside slope of the wings.

If you look at the mount for the bolter, it would swivel up and down, side to side, regardless of how its modelled. Our FLGS days it has 180 degrees of firing area as long as the gunner can see the target. Thanks to the LOS laser of course.

Your friends might also make the argument that models never block LOS to models in the unit. Since the Valk is a member of its own unit, it can't block LOS of itself, and the limitation would only be set by the arc of the sponsons.

I would also make that argument, though it has never come up.

It is also an entirely invalid argument.

Look at the line of sight drawing for a Predator, note that the vehicle DOES block its own los.

Wehrkind wrote:Your friends might also make the argument that models never block LOS to models in the unit. Since the Valk is a member of its own unit, it can't block LOS of itself, and the limitation would only be set by the arc of the sponsons.

I would also make that argument, though it has never come up.

Models inside of a unit. So Multiple Valkyries can fire through other valkyries in the same squadron but they cannot fire through themselves because of vehicle sponsoon rules.

A unit is one or more models. The line is "Firing models may always draw line of sight through members of their own units,..." so unless you contend that a model is not a member of its own unit, your logic doesn't work. It isn't even "other members" but just "members".
Further, the vehicle sponson rules just talk about the swivel of the gun, not whether it is blocked by the vehicle. Pg 59 says they are assumed to swivel 180 degrees except as limited by the shape and position of the mounting. Nothing about drawing line of sight.

Wehrkind wrote:Pg 59 says they are assumed to swivel 180 degrees except as limited by the shape and position of the mounting. Nothing about drawing line of sight.

...unless you take it to mean that when it says it is limited by the shape and position of the mounting.

The rules are different for vehicles. Otherwise, you could have a sponson weapon fire through the body of the tank to hit someone on the tank's opposite flank.

Vehicle weapons need to be able to look like they can draw LOS. For valk door gunners, this is basically a little more than 180 degrees from the door, and all the way down.

Wehrkind - please reread ALL of the section, p58, Vehicle weapons and Line of Sight.

In short: you are wrong.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:The rules are different for vehicles. Otherwise, you could have a sponson weapon fire through the body of the tank to hit someone on the tank's opposite flank.

Vehicle weapons need to be able to look like they can draw LOS. For valk door gunners, this is basically a little more than 180 degrees from the door, and all the way down.

That isn't an issue because the sponson rules specify 180 degrees, (or even slightly more). So since you can't spin the gun to point that direction, you can't shoot there.
As to your second point, they just need to turn to have LOS etc. My point is that a valk can't block LOS to itself.

nosferatu1001 wrote: Wehrkind - please reread ALL of the section, p58, Vehicle weapons and Line of Sight.

Yes, and as you will see it says nothing about "if some part of the model blocks LOS from the gun, it ignores the fact that units can not block line of sight of their members." To paraphrase, it says point the gun at the target and trace line of sight along each weapon barrel to see if terrain or models block LOS. A unit can't block LOS to itself, so the wing can't block LOS.

Also, I wouldn't suggest someone read the section and simply say they are wrong. It doesn't make a point, and they might just happen to have a copy of the BRB with them.

Soup and a roll: The mounting does nothing to limit the arc of fire. The contention is whether or not the wing does.

I don't notice that line about units having a vehicles exception. So I would say that would be the one exception to line of sight.

So, if you had read the section yoyu would have seen that it needs to trace LOS to see if it is blocked by MODELS. Is the Valk a model?

Yes.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, if you had read the section yoyu would have seen that it needs to trace LOS to see if it is blocked by MODELS. Is the Valk a model?

Yes.

Perhaps you missed this the first time, so I will try and be more clear: Page 16, under "Check Line of Sight and Pick a Target", there is a sub heading "Own Unit." To quote the rule book:

Warhammer 40,000, Main Rule Book, pg 16 wrote: There is one important exception to the rules for line of sight. Firing models can always draw line of sight through members of their own unit (just as if they were not there), as in reality they would take up firing positions to maximise their own squad's firepower.

So again, yes the valk is a model, but unless you contend that a model is not a member of its own unit, a valk can NOT block LOS to itself.

And maybe you missed that vehicles do not have that exception, as they have a fully defined method for checking their own LOS, conveniently enough under the heading of the same name?

There is no exception that says models in the unit block line of sight to other models in the unit. All it does is specify where you draw LOS from, from along the gun barrel, not the eyes like on infantry.
Further, the squadron rules specify that "Like other units, vehicles in squadrons can see and shoot through members of their own unit."

So... is a valk a member of its own unit?


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Just to be clear, I am not saying it is a great example of rules writing, or at all realistic. I am just saying that the rules say a model (unit) does not block line of sight to members of its unit. So if you can point the gun at a target, and their are no non-unit models or terrain blocking LOS, you can fire.

A little silly, though in this case I can imagine a valk lifting one wing a bit to allow the gunner a better shot to the side.

Take a look at pg 59 and the predator. Can the sponsons fire through the predator in the image?

Stating that the model is part of the unit is negating the rule of the sponsons that state that the weapon mount must trace line of sight to the target. The diagrams (which you are told to look at) clearly state that you cannot fire through the vehicle that the weapon is attached to.

I'm considering sticking Leman Russ Sponsons over the doors just to make this all easier (and I modelled them with the doors shut).

I have tested it out and it looks really good, basically makes it look like a real gunship just bristling with armaments (and I think the doorgunners look kind of dumb on a jet that should have been a helicopter).

rogueeyes wrote:Take a look at pg 59 and the predator. Can the sponsons fire through the predator in the image?

Stating that the model is part of the unit is negating the rule of the sponsons that state that the weapon mount must trace line of sight to the target. The diagrams (which you are told to look at) clearly state that you cannot fire through the vehicle that the weapon is attached to.

Can the predator rotate it's sponsons so that one can draw line of sight down the barrel to see a target on the other side? That's the limitation, not the hull of the predator. Remember, you draw LOS down the length of the gun when it is pointed at the target. If you can't point it at the target because the mounting won't allow it, you can't shoot it, as the LR and pred examples show.

Granted, I think this rule was written without a thought of the vehicle itself blocking LOS one way or the other, but it definitely says that units can't block LOS to themselves.

*achem* according to GW: two valks in a squadron do not block LOS to one another. If Valk A is firing a sponson gun at a target in range on the far side of valk B, since they're in the same unit, Valk B does not block LOS.

This is why bikes (and Leman Russes) are a pain in the backside, since they don't block LOS to one another as long as they're in the same unit.

As far as the model blocking fire from it's own guns, remember that the valk is supposed to be mounted on the flying base, which is tall enough that it should have a clear LOS on anything in range. So, even if it's not on it's proper base, it strikes me that it would have to be played as though it were.

insaniak wrote:Keep in mind, though, that it is also assumed that weapons can swivel 45 degrees vertically, regardless of how they are modelled.

Only 45 degrees up, there is no provision for depressing weapons.


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Wehrkind wrote:Can the predator rotate it's sponsons so that one can draw line of sight down the barrel to see a target on the other side? That's the limitation, not the hull of the predator. Remember, you draw LOS down the length of the gun when it is pointed at the target. If you can't point it at the target because the mounting won't allow it, you can't shoot it, as the LR and pred examples show.

Yes, the predator can point the sponsons at it's own hull.

Wehrkind wrote:Granted, I think this rule was written without a thought of the vehicle itself blocking LOS one way or the other, but it definitely says that units can't block LOS to themselves.

Maybe they didn't make provision for that because you're wrong. See the BRB FAQ for an example that explicitly mentions the vehicle model blocking line of sight for it's weapons:

BRB FAQ wrote: However, if you mount the same storm bolter on a Razorback, even though it still can rotate 360º, it won’t obviously be able to fire through the Razorback’s main turret, and so it will have a ‘blind spot’.

Wait, that doesn't make sense, because neither a malcador or a macharius would be able to shoot at anything with their turrets then.

Why? The weapons can all point at something?

If you're talking about the heavy stubber turret then yes, it does have a very limited arc of fire.

Scott-S6 wrote:

insaniak wrote:Keep in mind, though, that it is also assumed that weapons can swivel 45 degrees vertically, regardless of how they are modelled.

Only 45 degrees up, there is no provision for depressing weapons.

The rulebook says that they can move 'vertically'... it doesn't specify 'up' only.


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BaronIveagh wrote:Wait, that doesn't make sense, because neither a malcador or a macharius would be able to shoot at anything with their turrets then.

Why not? Looking at them now, and can't see any reason the turrets couldn't draw a LOS.

Edit: Never mind, just realised what you were responding to. Not the LOS thing, the elevation thing...

insaniak wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

insaniak wrote:Keep in mind, though, that it is also assumed that weapons can swivel 45 degrees vertically, regardless of how they are modelled.

Only 45 degrees up, there is no provision for depressing weapons.

The rulebook says that they can move 'vertically'... it doesn't specify 'up' only.

So would you interprete that as 45 degrees up and 45 degrees down or a total vertical movement of 45 degrees (so only 22.5 up or down?)

Whilst it does just say vertical movement this is in the context of elevation. If it is actually read as elevation and depression then you've only got 45 degrees of movement total, 22.5 up and 22.5 down which is virtually useless.

Scott-S6 wrote:So would you interprete that as 45 degrees up and 45 degrees down or a total vertical movement of 45 degrees (so only 22.5 up or down?)

It would be 45 degrees total... which, without going and grabbing a model, would be about the range of movement that you actually have on a Predator or Russ turret weapon.


If you're going to claim that fixed-in-place weapons can only go up and not down, you're going to need to define a set angle for those who glue their turret weapons in place, otherwise everybody's tanks will have a different arc of fire depending on where they glue the weapon pointing... which clearly contradicts the rule saying that weapons glued in place should be assumed to have the same arc as those that can move freely.

And vehicles like the Vindicator are never going to be able to fire at infantry at ground level.

Actually, the Malcador defender wouldn't be able to shoot at anything to it's sides. The treds are too wide and block line of site. Macharius with the vulcan megabolter has the same problem. The tanks hull is in the way.