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What i like about this list is that it can can throw an obscene abount of fire power down the field, just like a gunline is supposed to do.

long ranged anti-infantry in the form of 4 TL-autocannons, 13 missile launchers, 3 heavy bolters.
medium and short ranged ranged anti-infantry there are 2 TL-assault cannons, 4 flamers, and 1 plasma gun.
long ranged anti-tank there is 13 Krak missiles, 5 lascannons(2 are TL) and the 4 TL-autocannons.
Short ranged anti-tank is formed of 2 melta-guns, and 2 Powerfist armed units.

HQ
MOTF with Servo harness, Combi-plasma and power sword. 5 Servitors.


Troops
10 man tactical squad with Combi-flamer, power weapon, Flamer, and Lascannon. Razorback with TL-Assault cannon, Dozerblade, and Stormbolter.

10 man tactical squad with Combi-flamer, power weapon, Flamer, and Lascannon. Razorback with TL-Assault cannon, Dozerblade, and Stormbolter.

10 man tactical squad with Combi-melta, power fist, melta gun, and Lascannon. Razorback with TL-lascannon and Dozerblade.


Elites
Dreadnought with TL-lascannon and missile launcher.

Dreadnought with 2 TL-autocannons.

Dreadnought with 2 TL-autocannons.


Fast Attack
3 Landspeeders with Typhoon missile launchers.

3 Landspeeders with Typhoon missile launchers.

2000 pts even


the deployment tactic is, if i go first, to have all the speeders on one side of the board edge pretty eneny spaced while the rest sets up likewise along the along the other half of my board edge. then first turn i move the speeders over to the side the rest of the army is on.

the idea is this force can pull off a refused flank tactic no matter if i go first or second.

Seems a little seedy for the 2k level, I would turn the speeders into a heavy support option.

whats the point of the MotF? And ther servitors?
Why 2 squads of 3 speeders and not 3 squads of two?
Too much upgrades on all your units/RBs

what do you mean by "seedy"?

6 typhoons are 540 pts and its all Dakka.

you will be hardpressed to get as much fire power for that points cost in the heavy support section.


your Suggestions?

I would drop the assault cannons on the razorbacks, and replace them with the Lascannon + Twin-linked Plasmagun combo. I could go into why, but I don't feel like it. :p

BobTheChainsaw wrote:I would drop the assault cannons on the razorbacks, and replace them with the Lascannon + Twin-linked Plasmagun combo. I could go into why, but I don't feel like it. :p

Bad bad bad bad bad!

Grey Templar wrote:what do you mean by "seedy"?

6 typhoons are 540 pts and its all Dakka.

you will be hardpressed to get as much fire power for that points cost in the heavy support section.


your Suggestions?

540 points for 6 AV 10 tanks, not a matter of dakka, a matter of toughness, sentinels/autocannons/scatter lasers. Alot of things can destroy those without a sweat, a few would be nice, broken up into small squadrons for some target saturation, though 540 down the drain real easy...

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

BobTheChainsaw wrote:I would drop the assault cannons on the razorbacks, and replace them with the Lascannon + Twin-linked Plasmagun combo. I could go into why, but I don't feel like it. :p

Bad bad bad bad bad!

Not bad, no. I really don't feel like debating, so I'll let Stelek do the talking:
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/05/usermail-second-thoughts-on-las-plas.html


Plus, with the Lascannon + Plasma Gun razorback, it takes two weapon destroyed results to stop it from firing, while the assault cannon razorback only requires one. I think that may make it worth it, alone.

BobTheChainsaw wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

BobTheChainsaw wrote:I would drop the assault cannons on the razorbacks, and replace them with the Lascannon + Twin-linked Plasmagun combo. I could go into why, but I don't feel like it. :p

Bad bad bad bad bad!

Not bad, no. I really don't feel like debating, so I'll let Stelek do the talking:
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/05/usermail-second-thoughts-on-las-plas.html


Plus, with the Lascannon +Plasma Gun razorback, it takes two weapon destroyed results to stop it from firing, while the assault cannon razorback only requires one. I think that may make it worth it, alone.

OMG, you dick, I was reading this and drinking, and I got some drink on my laptop! God, form some thoughts of your own, not just: "Stelek is the best!!!1!!!/1!!on1!!!"

No one will argue that you could put up a good fight when paired with a heavy mech force. But what about hord? I think your list lacks some depth. If you are building comp I don't know if you have it. If you want a realy fun list to play, you got it spot on.
I'm not going to nix your gun line list, but I will make a couple points.

1} auto cannons a lot of people like this wep, I don't know why. Yea its cheep but you don't have the punch for armor, you don't have the shots for light troops, and the ap won't kill heavy troop. This is just my exp.

2} next I agree with every one on the speeders. If you must use them, go with 3 groups of 2.

3} my last point. To make this comp you need a time bomb. I would use TH termys in a LR
The rest of your list would compliment them very well. You can still have all the dreads just put it in as a heavy

Oh one last thing I like the las\plas razerbacks as well

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

BobTheChainsaw wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

BobTheChainsaw wrote:I would drop the assault cannons on the razorbacks, and replace them with the Lascannon + Twin-linked Plasmagun combo. I could go into why, but I don't feel like it. :p

Bad bad bad bad bad!

Not bad, no. I really don't feel like debating, so I'll let Stelek do the talking:
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/05/usermail-second-thoughts-on-las-plas.html


Plus, with the Lascannon +Plasma Gun razorback, it takes two weapon destroyed results to stop it from firing, while the assault cannon razorback only requires one. I think that may make it worth it, alone.

OMG, you dick, I was reading this and drinking, and I got some drink on my laptop! God, form some thoughts of your own, not just: "Stelek is the best!!!1!!!/1!!on1!!!"

I do have my own thoughts, and I often disagree with Stelek. This, however, is one instance where I agree with him completely. Instead of mocking the fact that I agree with Stelek (Who you and the rest of Dakka seem to despise), actually look at the points he's making. Imagine the guy making the post wasn't Stelek. Anyway, the Las + Plas Razorback > Assault Cannon Razorback. Truth.

BobTheChainsaw wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

BobTheChainsaw wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

BobTheChainsaw wrote:I would drop the assault cannons on the razorbacks, and replace them with the Lascannon + Twin-linked Plasmagun combo. I could go into why, but I don't feel like it. :p

Bad bad bad bad bad!

Not bad, no. I really don't feel like debating, so I'll let Stelek do the talking:
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/05/usermail-second-thoughts-on-las-plas.html


Plus, with the Lascannon +Plasma Gun razorback, it takes two weapon destroyed results to stop it from firing, while the assault cannon razorback only requires one. I think that may make it worth it, alone.

OMG, you dick, I was reading this and drinking, and I got some drink on my laptop! God, form some thoughts of your own, not just: "Stelek is the best!!!1!!!/1!!on1!!!"

I do have my own thoughts, and I often disagree with Stelek. This, however, is one instance where I agree with him completely. Instead of mocking the fact that I agree with Stelek (Who you and the rest of Dakka seem to despise), actually look at the points he's making. Imagine the guy making the post wasn't Stelek. Anyway, the Las + Plas Razorback > Assault Cannon Razorback. Truth.

Ok, I read it. It's ork gak. Assault cannons are better, period. His blog is a joke, assault cannons do get side shots often, if you're not a fethwipe. Sure, if I were to take one razorback, it would be las/plas, seeing as I am taking upwards of one, assault cannons can easily get side shots. Vehicles don't need to be fast, I would love to play Stelek in a match.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

BobTheChainsaw wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

BobTheChainsaw wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

BobTheChainsaw wrote:I would drop the assault cannons on the razorbacks, and replace them with the Lascannon + Twin-linked Plasmagun combo. I could go into why, but I don't feel like it. :p

Bad bad bad bad bad!

Not bad, no. I really don't feel like debating, so I'll let Stelek do the talking:
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/05/usermail-second-thoughts-on-las-plas.html


Plus, with the Lascannon +Plasma Gun razorback, it takes two weapon destroyed results to stop it from firing, while the assault cannon razorback only requires one. I think that may make it worth it, alone.

OMG, you dick, I was reading this and drinking, and I got some drink on my laptop! God, form some thoughts of your own, not just: "Stelek is the best!!!1!!!/1!!on1!!!"

I do have my own thoughts, and I often disagree with Stelek. This, however, is one instance where I agree with him completely. Instead of mocking the fact that I agree with Stelek (Who you and the rest of Dakka seem to despise), actually look at the points he's making. Imagine the guy making the post wasn't Stelek. Anyway, the Las + Plas Razorback > Assault Cannon Razorback. Truth.

Ok, I read it. It's ork gak. Assault cannons are better, period.

Mind explaining your thoughts? Alright, let's compare the two side-by-side:

Assault Cannon Razorback vs Las + Plas Razorback:

Alright, first, let's look at range. The Assault Cannon razorback has a range of 24", while the Las + Plas Razorback has a range of 72" for the lascannon (and 24" for the plasma gun, which can doubletap within 12"). Who wins in terms of range? The Las + Plas, soundly. The Las + Plas can shoot at enemies past 24", while the AC razorback cannot. Next, let's look at survivability. They're both equal (they're both razorbacks, duh) except for one difference: The Las + Plas razorback has TWO weapons, while the AC razorback only has one. Therefore, a Weapon Destroyed result will not completely cripple a Las + Plas razorback, but it will cripple an AC razorback. Therefore, the Las + Plas wins in terms of survivability.

Next, we'll look at damage vs. infantry. The Assault Cannon wins against light infantry, but performs worse against MEQ and TEQ. I believe the Las + Plas wins here as well, because: who cares about light infantry? Space Marines have a wide variety of anti-infantry weapons, so light infantry aren't really a threat. MEQ and TEQ however, ARE a threat, and the Las + Plas razorback will put a hurting on them. Cover also hampers the Assault Cannon's effectiveness. "But wait!" you say, "Units in cover would negatively affect the Las + Plas razorback too!". Yes, this is true. However, you have to remember what you're shooting at with the razorback: MEQ and TEQ. These also happen to be the units that tend to use cover the least, and by forcing them to use cover you're reducing their effectiveness.

Finally, we'll look at damage vs. vehicles. The AC is far superior against AV 14 and AV13, I'll give you that. But if you're shooting at a Land Raider with an assault cannon, you must be pretty desperate. Have fun hoping for that rending roll. Anyway, the Las + Plas wins against AV11 and AV10, which also happen to be the most numerous types of armor available. Not to mention, you can actually shoot at them (with reduced effectiveness, I admit) past 24". Looking at all of this leads me to one conclusion: The Las + Plas razorback is superior.

Mind explaining your thoughts? Alright, let's compare the two side-by-side:

Assault Cannon Razorback vs Las + Plas Razorback:

Alright, first, let's look at range. The Assault Cannon razorback has a range of 24", while the Las + Plas Razorback has a range of 72" for the lascannon (and 24" for the plasma gun, which can doubletap within 12"). Who wins in terms of range? The Las + Plas, soundly. The Las + Plas can shoot at enemies past 24", while the AC razorback cannot. Next, let's look at survivability. They're both equal (they're both razorbacks, duh) except for one difference: The Las + Plas razorback has TWO weapons, while the AC razorback only has one. Therefore, a Weapon Destroyed result will not completely cripple a Las + Plas razorback, but it will cripple an AC razorback. Therefore, the Las + Plas wins in terms of survivability.

Hardly. If you are at range, then you lose the lascannon and can't do jack for a few turns. If you are close, they take off the plas, and all you have left is a crumby little non twin-linked lascannon. 24" range is plenty.

Next, we'll look at damage vs. infantry. The Assault Cannon wins against light infantry, but performs worse against MEQ and TEQ. I believe the Las + Plas wins here as well, because: who cares about light infantry? Space Marines have a wide variety of anti-infantry weapons, so light infantry aren't really a threat. MEQ and TEQ however, ARE a threat, and the Las + Plas razorback will put a hurting on them. Cover also hampers the Assault Cannon's effectiveness. "But wait!" you say, "Units in cover would negatively affect the Las + Plas razorback too!". Yes, this is true. However, you have to remember what you're shooting at with the razorback: MEQ and TEQ. These also happen to be the units that tend to use cover the least, and by forcing them to use cover you're reducing their effectiveness.

Ok... so you either hit with the assault cannons (all of the shots) most of the time, or you have a decent chance of hitting with two. They all wound on a 2, so versus targets in cover, you are forcing them to take more saves, that can be AP 2, also...

Finally, we'll look at damage vs. vehicles. The AC is far superior against AV 14 and AV13, I'll give you that. But if you're shooting at a Land Raider with an assault cannon, you must be pretty desperate. Have fun hoping for that rending roll. Anyway, the Las + Plas wins against AV11 and AV10, which also happen to be the most numerous types of armor available. Not to mention, you can actually shoot at them (with reduced effectiveness, I admit) past 24". Looking at all of this leads me to one conclusion: The Las + Plas razorback is superior.

Why is it better against AV 10-11? The assault cannon gets two more shots, all twin linked, as opposed to one twin-linked, and one non-twin-linked.

I fail to see any merit in your argument.

komosunder wrote:No one will argue that you could put up a good fight when paired with a heavy mech force. But what about hord? I think your list lacks some depth. If you are building comp I don't know if you have it. If you want a realy fun list to play, you got it spot on.
I'm not going to nix your gun line list, but I will make a couple points.

1} auto cannons a lot of people like this wep, I don't know why. Yea its cheep but you don't have the punch for armor, you don't have the shots for light troops, and the ap won't kill heavy troop. This is just my exp.

2} next I agree with every one on the speeders. If you must use them, go with 3 groups of 2.

3} my last point. To make this comp you need a time bomb. I would use TH termys in a LR
The rest of your list would compliment them very well. You can still have all the dreads just put it in as a heavy

Oh one last thing I like the las\plas razerbacks as well

you don't think this list can deal with Horde? 13 frag missiles is all the anti-horde i will need.

Auto-cannnons MURDER AV12 and below. most transports are AV12 if not worse. the Auto-cannons are TL so they will be unerringly accurate. Str7 will wound many MC fairly easily and they have enought shots to put down infantry.

3 groups of 2 sounds like a good idea.

i don't think i can find the points for a Hammernator bomb and every one expects one so they know how to deal with it.

In my opintion "TL Autocannons" are the best for transport killing, and Melta-weapons are the best for heavy tank killing.

In the arguement that TL Assault Cannon vs. TL PG and Lascannon. I vote for TL PG + Lascannon.

I really see the Assault cannon as a great, useful weapon. But if your going for a gunline list w/ all the tactical sqauds carrying lascannon's. Just give everyone Lascannons.

If you want to use the Assault cannons, change the Tacticals to Multi-melta's since they're both 24 inch range, then try to give them meltaguns.

I think we're all missing the MAIN issue here!

If your going to take three razorbacks with Heavy Weapons. JUST TAKE RHINOS!!!! The razorbacks can't even carry squads of 10. Just get the dirt cheap rhino x3, and save yourself near 120 points.

Keep the Lascannon's on the tacticals and shoot them out of the fire holes on the rhinos.

I vote for predators in this list. Autocannon turret + TL HB Sponsons 85 points, one or two of those as heavy choices would really beef the heck out of this "mech" army. It's just more av 12 to shoot at.

Just random drunken thoughts good luck!

Koski wrote:In my opintion "TL Autocannons" are the best for transport killing, and Melta-weapons are the best for heavy tank killing.

In the arguement that TL Assault Cannon vs. TL PG and Lascannon. I vote for TL PG + Lascannon.

I really see the Assault cannon as a great, useful weapon. But if your going for a gunline list w/ all the tactical sqauds carrying lascannon's. Just give everyone Lascannons.

If you want to use the Assault cannons, change the Tacticals to Multi-melta's since they're both 24 inch range, then try to give them meltaguns.

I think we're all missing the MAIN issue here!

If your going to take three razorbacks with Heavy Weapons. JUST TAKE RHINOS!!!! The razorbacks can't even carry squads of 10. Just get the dirt cheap rhino x3, and save yourself near 120 points.

Keep the Lascannon's on the tacticals and shoot them out of the fire holes on the rhinos.

I vote for predators in this list. Autocannon turret + TL HB Sponsons 85 points, one or two of those as heavy choices would really beef the heck out of this "mech" army. It's just more av 12 to shoot at.

Just random drunken thoughts good luck!

The whole point is to combat squad!

Usually goes:

B=normal marines
R=razorback
S=sgt
H=heavy weapon
P=Special weapon

BBBBH


RRR
RRR <------- SPBBB
RRR

24" is good range, good enough for most threats.

I didn't want to pull the numbers on the AC but here it is
shooting at AV 12.
4 shots 66% to hit + TL pushing it up to 88%. So 3-4 will hit. Now you Need a 6 to pin that's 16.5%. After the numbers are pluged, 47.5% to pin before saves, 23.75% after. I know that doesn't look bad but when you look at one TL/LC is 44% by it self. Or a MM at 60%

and no 13 frag won't be. A good ork player won't give you more then 2-3 per hit. And you won't get them out of cover.
But this is just my way of looking at things.

OKIE. Landspeeders in a gunline....

540 points.

That's....

2 Landraiders

or

2 Dev squads at 10 men each with one squad toting 4 ML and one squad with 4 Lascannon.....

or

3 Vindicators

or

3 Whirlwind

or

3 Predators


Take 3 Landspeeders AND some heavy support!

3 Landspeeder typhoons put out more Dakka then 1 Devestator squad for cheaper. granted, no lascannons, but Dev lascannons are WAYYYY too expensive.

6 landspeeders may not be as touge as 2 landraiders on paper, but they can kill much more in my expierences.

3 vindicators i would say are a close tie with the LS. shorter range and more destructive power vs speed and greater anti-tank ability.

Whirlwinds? don't make me laugh. if cover was a problem i would take 3 TFCs.

Predators can't put out as much destructive power.

Landspeeder Typhoons......what gunner weapon are you taking with them?

the stock heavy bolter.

i like being able to move 12" and either fire the 6 Krak missiles OR the 6 Frag missiles and the HB.

The Typhoon is versatile i'll give it that. But it makes the LS so expensive! If they gave you an assault cannon for the gunner i'd take it though.

komosunder wrote:I didn't want to pull the numbers on the AC but here it is
shooting at AV 12.
4 shots 66% to hit + TL pushing it up to 88%. So 3-4 will hit. Now you Need a 6 to pin that's 16.5%. After the numbers are pluged, 47.5% to pin before saves, 23.75% after. I know that doesn't look bad but when you look at one TL/LC is 44% by it self. Or a MM at 60%

and no 13 frag won't be. A good ork player won't give you more then 2-3 per hit. And you won't get them out of cover.
But this is just my way of looking at things.

Your math is wrong.

Why would you ever want your 2 frag/krak missile shooting Speeder to be within 24"? Assault cannon is not a good choice on a Speeder.

Why not? It's more powerful than a Heavy Bolter. has better range than a flamer or melta.....

it has the same range as a melta...
Anyway, it costs a crap load more.

the Heavy bolter meshes perfectly with the Frag missile mode on the typhoon.

Move 12" fire the krak missiles OR move 12" and fire the Frag missiles AND the HB.

I will not argue that your speeders are not effective, just that I always take three heavy support choices in matches of 1,000 points and upwards. Vindicators, c'mon!

I love vindicators too.

i might try a 3 vindicator list sometime.

I stand corrected. Apologies.