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It seems to me, and correct me if i am wrong, but a vindicator seems useless, unless in a defnsive posture, if it moves at all it can't fire, unless you give it POTMS (black templar), which is expensive. The predator on the other hand, can be mixed anti tank or infantry, or can cash out for i think 145 points, for 3 lascannons, 1 of which is twinlinked, also unable to fire if moving without potms but has 2x the range, so doesnt NEED to move as often. I got a vindicator cause it looked bad ass, but am sorely disappointed by it's seemingly uselessness, though I will keep it around incase I am ever in a game where I know I am defending an area.

Any reasons why would be good too, forgot to add that part

Vindicators, ten times more effective than predators. Vindicators have undeniably more infantry, heavy infantry, and high AV killing potential...

Predators are nice if you expect to be facing alot of low-mid AV tanks (10-12)

Vindicators should only be fielded in groups of two or more.

One vindicator, a fire magnet, that will be destroyed turn one against most armies.

Two vindicators, a threat to be reckoned with, though stoppable.

Three vindicators, nigh unstoppable against quite a few armies out there, eldar and their dark cousins can kill them easily if you slip us, since their side armor is that of a rhino.

Also, taking them in multiples reduces the impact of one bad scatter...

Having a few predator options, and one vindicator option is bad.

Disagree with the polls, they're bad...

Vindicators are much more effective then predators,

BUT only when taken in groups of 2 or more.


and Vindicators can move 6" and fire. they just can't shoot anything else.

POTMS? You need to get the new codex and reread the 5th edition rulebook.

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:It seems to me, and correct me if i am wrong, but a vindicator seems useless, unless in a defnsive posture, if it moves at all it can't fire, unless you give it POTMS, which is expensive

How did I miss that!?!? Bad! 6" and fire, if the enemy is out of range, move 12" and smoke, then do your stuff next turn.

oni wrote:POTMS? You need to get the new codex and reread the 5th edition rulebook.

I'm not sure to which line you are referring to Oni. though I am certain my response is the same. The fifth rulebook POTMS means nothing to us Black Tewmplar players. Codex always trumps rulebook, and our codex still gives us the old rules, can move up to full speed in straight line when stunned, and can fire one extra weapon at ballistic skill 2.

I still think a 24" range for a vindicator is really sucky, but I'll try it a few more times, my predator saved my butt in last nights game against some ork mechanized, but as it came at me, the vindicator would have been nice too...

Do NOT take just one vindicator, two or more.

Buy this.

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:

oni wrote:POTMS? You need to get the new codex and reread the 5th edition rulebook.

I'm not sure to which line you are referring to Oni. though I am certain my response is the same. The fifth rulebook POTMS means nothing to us Black Tewmplar players. Codex always trumps rulebook, and our codex still gives us the old rules, can move up to full speed in straight line when stunned, and can fire one extra weapon at ballistic skill 2.

Perhaps you should mention that in you original post that this is for Black Templars. Most people will assume you're using the standard Space Marine codex unless stated otherwise.

I'd choose a vindicator any day. The damage it can inflict is amazing for the small amount of points.

I had mentioned "giving it potms" i figured that would be some sort of hint, but i added templar's to clear up confusion.

I have a hard enough time keeping my Predators alive...I can't imagine keeping a Vind w/ a 12" range alive for any significant length of time.

From an article I wrote a while ago.


The debate rages, Predator VS Vindicator. It’s an argument that many Space Marine players have had, and it continues to rage to this day. The changes within 5th edition have altered the role of this trusty space marine armour piece. Today we will be focusing on the pros of the Predator in relation to the Vindicator, and we will address the Vindicator’s positives in a later article. Also to note, I will not be discussing the lascannon variant of the Predator here. I feel this variant is not at all viable anymore under 5th edition rules, but we can discuss that in a future article.



I have heard many players both on forums and in real life discuss their abhorrence for the Predator under the new 5th edition rule set. For those who are new to the game, or don’t know much about Warhammer 40,000, 5th ed brought with it some fairly large changes to the way tanks operate in the 41st millennium. The most important to Predators was the changes to defensive weaponry.



What does a defensive weapon mean? Within the vehicle rules a tank has one of two weapon classifications, primary and defensive. All defensive weapons can always be fired when moving 6 inches or under (listed henceforth as ‘combat speed’) while only one primary weapon may be fired. Any number of defensive or primary weapons may be fired if the vehicle does not move at all.



The new cut off mark for a defensive weapon as been lowered to strength 4 and below, which rules out the strength 5 Heavy Bolters a Predator employs as its side sponson weaponry. This means the Predator can no longer ‘roll forward’ with all its weapons firing, which is what has turned many players away from what was once the bulwark of space marine offence.



It’s true that it has suffered in this role, but we must look at it in the context of the entirety of the rules set, for now it has developed a new role. Cover saves are now far more prevalent, and your foe’s footsloggers (and sometimes armour) will rarely be without that trusty 4+ save. This means the effect of weapons such as the demolisher cannon (Strength 10, AP 2) has decreased greatly, no longer is a ‘hit’ a death sentence for an entire squad.



The changes to cover however have had virtually no effect on the Predator destructor’s (This is the load out with a autocannon for the turret and two heavy bolters on the sponsons) arsenal. One Predator is still putting out 6 heavy bolter shots, and 2 autocannon shots every turn, and since most units in the game will get an armour save vs. these AP 5 weapons, the changes to cover matter little to its effectiveness.



The rate of fire also gives you a much greater margin for accommodating bad dice rolls. One unlikely roll on a scatter dice can render your Vindicator’s demolisher cannon far wide, meaning it does nothing to contribute for this battle. The Predator on the other hand, with 8 separate dice, and needing only a 3+ to hit as a space marine vehicle, will rarely fail to find its mark with at least half of those weapons. And the high strength of all of them ensures a good majority of those that hit, will also wound.

It is for this reason; I think that while the Vindicators kills may look more spectacular and you may remember them better in your mind, over the long run, the workhorse Predator will slowly rack up far more kills.



“But the Vindicator can move and fire, while the Predator must remain stationary to get the same benefit!” I hear you say. A true statement and I’ll be addressing the advantages of this in the Vindicator article, but remaining stationary is not without its benefits. With the changes to cover for vehicles in 5th edition (If your tank is 50% obscured from the shooter, you get a 4+ cover save ignoring all damage) you are strongly encouraged to find a advantageous firing point, park yourself there for the duration of the game and let lose. The risks of moving out into open space are huge; as you lose your 50% chance to ignore that lucky lascannon hit that would otherwise wipe out your precious fire support. The incredibly long range of the Predator’s weaponry also adds to this advantage. With a greater ‘arc of death’ it is given far more options in choosing its locale of residence. Your entire deployment zone is almost always fine for choosing where to place it. While in contrast a Vindicator’s much smaller range means it must be deployed far more aggressively. And its list of viable locations where it can get that 50% cover save is vastly reduced, as it doesn’t have such a large area of the board where it can sit and still be in range of potential targets.



This brings us to our last point for today, range. The primary threats to vehicles now in 5th edition come from close combat and melta weaponry. With the inability to be destroyed from glancing hits, always striking the rear armour (the change to close combat for vehicles in 5th ed) as well as the +1 on the damage table from melta weaponry (for being AP 1) and the extra dice on the penetration roll for being within half range make both these avenues of attack highly perilous for tanks. Thus, the very short range of the Vindicator will force you to bring it within range of being charged by the enemy who may be packing melta bombs or a powerfist (slightly negated by the fact it should always be moving, granted) and within range of that terrifying melta weaponry your opponent is no doubt employing. Combine this with the much harder time a Vindicator will have in finding a decent vantage point to offload its firepower while maintaining that all important cover save, and you start to see why things stack up in the favour of the Predator in my mind.



Finally, we come to points cost. For all this, with sponson upgrades a Predator will only cost you 85 points. Almost nothing in a game of 1,500 points or more. By comparison a Vindicator will set you back 110 points, a much steeper investment for something I feel is much more likely to not only be targeted and die, but present itself as a open target for destruction by barrelling in at the forefront of your army.



So, to summarise. Rate of fire, ability to take advantage of cover saves and the long range of its weaponry are the primary advantages a Predator possesses, as well as being incredible value for points at only 85.

Nah its 24" inch range there 1-UP. Both have their uses and depends on your situation. I prefer Vindis (big surprise i know) but now that i have gotten a little better at the game i have started using preds more.

Yes. You sir are correct! If you take the tanks one on one. However, with any bit of luck, and a few "hit" rolls, the vindicators can pounce on entire squads.

Also, seeing as most players will spread their models out, they will have to take an awful lot more difficult terrain tests, slowing them down a considerable amount.

As for killing marines in cover spread out, sure, the predator can be better since the vindicator scatters, the predator *may* be more valuable than a vindicator for that role.

That predator is alot less versatile though, it isn't as effective against horde, and cannot even dent AV14, at best it can glance AV13...

Unless your opponent is packing assault troops, or a plethora of land raiders, 24" shouldn't warrant an assault, no risk.

As you say, 110 points that may die barreling into your opponent, as always, it is all about the list. I have a successful mechanized offensive list, that is only successful from the fire-soaking, squad killing vindicators.

With a good tank formation, vindicators can get cover all the time, or show their AV 13, not too shabby...

I actually feel the predator is better against horde than the vindicator. Horde also almost always have that 4 plus cover save. And say against orks, the most you are likely to hit with a perfectly aimed vindi shell is 5-6 assuming no scatter, which is againt down to luck.

over the course of the game I feel the predator will kill more enemies than the vindi can. Especially since it will be firing every turn, if you poisition it well. Not wasting a turn driving fowards.

I dont rate the vindi as a tank killer. I choose my units for a spesific role, and prefer them, to excel in one role for as few points as possible than multiple roles for more points.

I will usually take 2-3 predators in my army, park them on back line, and just fire them at troops, usually dominating a flank or the middle with them, while sending melta bearing land speeders or dreads in drop pods foward to deal with incoming enemy armor.

2 predators put out an impressive 16 shots.

If you want versility I can see a vindi but I have had no luck with them, always scattering off the target and then blowing up next round to a melta gun. I'd much rather fill up my heavy support slots with 3 A13 preds, park them behind cover, shoot for 4-5 turns and then if needed race foward onto an objective to contest.

But each to their own.

I've just seen vindi shells land on 5 orks with a perfect hit, wound 4, and then 3 make a cover save and only 1 dies. Doesnt seem like much bang for your buck. Or just scatter off into nowhere and injure nobody. All they really provide is a tool of psychological warfare.

I see the Vindicator as a tool for a general who likes to take a big risk, and if it pays off its great and if it doesn't he is in trouble.

The predator is a tool for the general who prefers a reliable tool of war, that while it may not be able to give you one off huge impressive results, will plonk away every turn, rarely failing to do exactly what you expect it to do (kill 2-3 guys a turn)

I'm a chaos player and a big Predator fan. An AC/HB pred with a havoc launcher (36'' Str 5 Ap 5 blast, twin linked) can pull off an amazing amount of horde killing power.

Roleplayer wrote:I actually feel the predator is better against horde than the vindicator. Horde also almost always have that 4 plus cover save. And say against orks, the most you are likely to hit with a perfectly aimed vindi shell is 5-6 assuming no scatter, which is againt down to luck.

Depends on the level of horde, all out horde, not every unit is going to get cover if you point it right, unless there is a KFF mek. Also with horde, if you scatter, you're going to still hit a few models.

over the course of the game I feel the predator will kill more enemies than the vindi can. Especially since it will be firing every turn, if you poisition it well. Not wasting a turn driving fowards.

Vindicators don't have to waste a turn moving forward, I have a few batreps with three vindicators, against he space wolves player I had to, though predators wouldn't have standed a chance in hell without a cover. The dark angels player, well there was some crappy terrain (my board )

I dont rate the vindi as a tank killer. I choose my units for a spesific role, and prefer them, to excel in one role for as few points as possible than multiple roles for more points.

Ok, tank killer is not its role, terminator/marine killer is its role, though if there are no other tanks, thats one less land raider to worry about, it has a better chance to penetrate (if it hits) then a railgun.

I will usually take 2-3 predators in my army, park them on back line, and just fire them at troops, usually dominating a flank or the middle with them, while sending melta bearing land speeders or dreads in drop pods foward to deal with incoming enemy armor.

Meh, different playstyles I guess.

2 predators put out an impressive 16 shots.

Ok, two vindicators put out an ungodly two wound on 2, no armor save blast weapons, instant killing most multi-wound models.

If you want versility I can see a vindi but I have had no luck with them, always scattering off the target and then blowing up next round to a melta gun. I'd much rather fill up my heavy support slots with 3 A13 preds, park them behind cover, shoot for 4-5 turns and then if needed race foward onto an objective to contest.

Ok, three vindicators don't need luck, they need target priority. 24" range, why do you end up in melta range? Vindicators are AV 13 too you know...

I see the Vindicator as a tool for a general who likes to take a big risk, and if it pays off its great and if it doesn't he is in trouble.

Ok, I see it for a general that likes having more than just light-medium anti-tank potential. Why is it a risk, once again, one vindicator, is useless, however, multiple will carry you to victory.

The predator is a tool for the general who prefers a reliable tool of war, that while it may not be able to give you one off huge impressive results, will plonk away every turn, rarely failing to do exactly what you expect it to do (kill 2-3 guys a turn)

But each to their own.

I've just seen vindi shells land on 5 orks with a perfect hit, wound 4, and then 3 make a cover save and only 1 dies. Doesnt seem like much bang for your buck. Or just scatter off into nowhere and injure nobody. All they really provide is a tool of psychological warfare.

They kill big stuff, shooting at boyz is a waste, leave that to the other units.

Ok, if I pop a battle wagon full of nobz, he puts about three or four that my vindicator can put over, assuming two of them have power klaws, and one has a TL-rokkit.

That means that if I get a hit 1/3 chance, and I have three vindicators, that is statistically one hit, bam, all should wound, carrying over to a little over two dead nobz, ranging from 115~60, not too shabby, and that is on the small side of things.

Vindicators are the best possible gun in the game when facing monoliths, just as a fun fact...

I think all your points are very valid my friend.

I think like you say, the two tanks offer very different roles, and are for very different playstyles.

I have also never tried an army with more than a single vindicator.

On your advice I will proxy a second one and give it a whirl and see if they perform any better.

I think you should also proxy the predator gunline, and see how you like or dont like the feel of it

But what about the triple lascannon predator? In the real lower point games, that seems to be the best shot in my opinion, do you disagree? If you could only pick one, not a group, which would you go with?

Vindicators are much more effective than Preds of any kind.
The Demolisher cannon can do more than a dakka pred could ever do and the pseudo-2d6 AP on the ordnance weapon does more damage IMO versus armor than 3 LCs. Plus it is much cheaper. The Vindicator also has the dozer blade for extra rushing awesomeness.
The only real advantage the Pred has over the Vindi is that the Vindi's only effective range is 24". That and 3 lascannons does more vs. MC's than a single template.

Roleplayer wrote:I think all your points are very valid my friend.

I think like you say, the two tanks offer very different roles, and are for very different playstyles.

I have also never tried an army with more than a single vindicator.

On your advice I will proxy a second one and give it a whirl and see if they perform any better.

I think you should also proxy the predator gunline, and see how you like or dont like the feel of it

Well, since you're trying mine, i'll give yours a try.

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:But what about the triple lascannon predator? In the real lower point games, that seems to be the best shot in my opinion, do you disagree? If you could only pick one, not a group, which would you go with?

Too many points for lower point value games. Keep tanks cheap in lower point matches. Heck, always try to keep them cheap.

I'm shocked that the AC/las predator is not even considered. @ 120 points, it is great at taking on either vehicles or MCs. I regularly use one in my 1500 point list, and 2 in 2k+.

The ac/las predator is one of the most efficient, tough transport killers in the game.

I want to answer ‘the Vindicator is a poor option in many lists, but can be good, even excellent in the right list or against the right opponent’ but that option isn’t on your poll. Neither the Predatorr nor the Vindicator is ‘better’, they both vary depending on circumstance.

As part of an army built around a range of high priority targets all charging forward together, it’s likely to be ignored in the first turn as it fires smoke, and it’ll be firing from the second turn. Or if the Vindicators flanks are protected by other advancing vehicles. It’s not that difficult to get a Vindicator into range as long as you plan for it. It may not be how you want to run your Marines, but that’s fine, that just means it isn’t the right tool for your list, not that it isn’t a a good tool.

At this point you look at what a Vindicator can bring. Sure, the enemy will stick to cover and keep spread out to avoid losing a full squad to a template hit, but the trick is you’ve now forced them to move into cover and to spread out. Armies like close combat focused marines are a whole lot more deadly when they can go where they want and always rely on the armour save. Meanwhile horde armies like orks will find there isn’t enough cover to go around, and when they spread out to avoid the template those big 30 boy units become unwieldy very quickly, and will often fail to get every boy in on the charge.

And the other thing to remember is that there is a lot of FNP out there now, and any template weapon with St 8 or more can be essential in bringing those units down. If you see FNP units a lot then a Vindicator can be an awesome asset to have.

It all depends on circumstance.

What Sebster said + Vindi's instagib nobs

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:But what about the triple lascannon predator? In the real lower point games, that seems to be the best shot in my opinion, do you disagree? If you could only pick one, not a group, which would you go with?

The triple las is bad because you pay way too much for the turret las. The sponson las are 30 each, the TL turret is 45, so that looks fair. However, the turret REPLACES the AC so it should have been cheaper. As said before, the AC/las pred is a great light tank/transport killer.

I dont have my codex with me, but i am fairly certain they are a good deal closer in points for black templar, i wanna say only a 20-25 point difference. If anyone has a templar codex handy, can ya back that up? Otherwise when i get home from work i'll check.

I'm trying out two vindicators with a whirlwind backing them up. I figure with the siege shield, I can get a bit more mileage out of them should their primary weapon go. I figure tank-shocking people out of terrain can also be quite useful.

And to be honest, I love the look.

Prolly dumb question, vindicator gun is ordance, yes? So i dont need los do i?

Bad!

Barrage ignores LoS.

Ord. gives you the highest of 2d6 for armor penetration.

ah ok i knew there was something