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Is a Wolf Lord mounted on a Thunderwolf S4/5 or S5? The GW SW FAQ simply states they are T5 and does not mention how their strength is augmented. Basically it makes the difference between a S9 or S10 power fist/thunderhammer.

G

RAW they are S4/5, but from the wording of the FAQ it is likely they meant S5...

They're S5, as a Thunder Wolf adds +1 Strength (among other things), to the character's profile.

RAW they are S 5 T 5, giving you delicious str 10 thunderhammer attacks

A Wolf Lord with a Thunderhammer that had a Thunderwolf instead of the usual hammer-head would be funny.

Irdiumstern wrote:RAW they are S 5 T 5, giving you delicious str 10 thunderhammer attacks

What is your basis for this statement? I have read both the codex & FAQ, couldn't find anything to support this as RAW. RAI possibly but not certain.

G

4th page of the SW FAQ. Bottom right corner. It explains the Toughness change.

We can then infer that the strength bonus is a base stat modification by the same logic. This however is not RAW or FAQ. Simply an extension of the rules (which can get sticky if we "extend" a lot of other rulings, so I'd clarify w/ your opponent).

I would play that they're S5 T5 w/ a Thunderwolf, not S4(5) T5.

The entry for thunderwolf mount tells you to add +1 str, toughness, and attack to the profile. This is a change to the profile, not a modification of a characteristic, so therefore does not fall under the multiple modifiers rule.

Considering that you are shown the process of how a profile change is applied via the FAQ for toughness, and that the thunderwolf entry tells you there is no difference in how you apply the +1 str, toughness, and attack, you would apply the str and attack exactly as you are told to apply the toughness.

Any interpretation that the str is S4(5) would also mean that the attack addition is A4(5) with the extra attack being taken at the wolf lord/wgbl/iron priest basic profile not at the new profile created per the thunderwolf entry.

Natural Str5 with Str10 thunderhammer attacks.

The only thing that the Space Wolf FAQ demonstrates is that the +1 Toughness isn't ignored for the purposes of instant death.

You have a profile of S4, you modify that by adding one, arriving at S5. However, when you double that S5, you get S9 because of page 7 because S(4+1)*2=S9 according to the rules.

Or just accept that it'll be S9.5 and you'll have to roll off about it each time.

Am I the only one that thinks the +1 toughness thunderwolf rule is completely stupid--along the lines of furious charge and counter attack stacking stupid? Nurgle gives +1 toughness, but doesnt count. Riding a bike gives +1 toughness, but doesnt count. Riding a different kind of mount that gives +1 toughness however DOES? It makes no sense. The only toughness bonus that has ever counted is the necron destroyer lord as far as I have seen, and it states such in the codex, yet when they wanted to sell thunderwolves they changed the rules.

As for adding +1 to the profile not counting as a modified stat--adding something to make it something else is modifing it. Thus we have the modified stats rules that say use the base stat for instant death, UNLESS you are a thunderwolf, whose modified stat is not a modified stat even though you modified a stat.

Makes no sense.

Furious Charge and Counter Attack don't stack. See the SW FAQ.

AFAIK GW reversed this. I also remember reading about how FC and CA stacked, but in the current FAQ, they do not.

Right, that is my point. The FAQ that brought us FC and CA stacking also brought us the modified stat that is not a modified stat. They revised the FC/CA issue after it was used to dominate a few tournies, but thunderwolves were left with their rule presumably to sell models.

Are thunderwolves game breakingly good? No... however it is a slap in the face to so many other units that have modified stats.

I agree with the sentiment that the Wolf Lord is S9. The bit about being pure T5 in the FAQ does not automatically confer that the base strength is S5. I think if that were the case then GW would have said so in the FAQ. I know several SW players that use S9. It's still really darn good & will instant death most ICs.

G

It is S10.

The +1 is not a modifier, like Furious Charge, it is a change to the models base profile. The Model is S5 for all intents and purposes, it is not Strength 4(5).

DevianID wrote:Right, that is my point. The FAQ that brought us FC and CA stacking also brought us the modified stat that is not a modified stat. They revised the FC/CA issue after it was used to dominate a few tournies,...

Was it? As I recall, the FAQ was changed after only a couple of days, due to a bit of an outcry when it was released.

but thunderwolves were left with their rule presumably to sell models.

Which models? The only Thunderwolf GW currently make is Canis, and I seriously doubt too many people are making up entire units with him...

Gwar I am curious to know where the rules explicitly state that.

Thanks!
G

Black Blow Fly wrote:Gwar I am curious to know where the rules explicitly state that.

Where do the rules say it's a modifier?
Nowhere, because it isn't.

It tells you to add one to your strength. It is a change to the base profile, not a modifier like Furious Charge.

Black Blow Fly wrote:Gwar I am curious to know where the rules explicitly state that.

Thanks!
G

The profile is increased to five, and powerfist type weapons double the model's strength. If the TWM was worded like "Attacks made by a model mounted on a TWM are at +1 Strength", then they'd be only S9.

The furious charge USR says add +1S to the characteristic. The entry for the TW mounts says add +1S to the profile. I fail to see any difference. What am I missing here?

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:The furious charge USR says add +1S to the characteristic. The entry for the TW mounts says add +1S to the profile. I fail to see any difference. What am I missing here?

G

One is an alteration of the base profile. The model becomes S5, not S5(4).

The other is a temporary modifier that makes the model S5(4).

Does the BRB define what is the profile and what is a characteristic? I'd check but don't have my rulebook with me right now.

G

It doesn't.

But then again, it also doesn't define what the word "and" means.

Profile and characteristic are interchangeable. Just seems to make more sense that the Wolf Lord is S5/4 when mounted on a thunderwolf knowing this bit.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:Profile and characteristic are interchangeable. Just seems to make more sense that the Wolf Lord is S5/4 when mounted on a thunderwolf knowing this bit.

G

Can you tell me where it says that?

Profile is the printed doodad in the codex which has all the units characteristics. A Characteristic is a single thing like Strength or Toughness.

Well, profile and characteristic aren't interchangeable ...

A characteristic is part of a profile, not the other way around.

But you have to change the characteristic, so it's the same really. That's my basis.

G

Furious Charge only changes the characteristic temporarily, while the Thunderwolf mount permanently changes the profile. The Thunderwolf Cavalry entry also lists the models as Str 5 T 5, not Str 4(5).

Irdiumstern wrote:Furious Charge only changes the characteristic temporarily, while the Thunderwolf mount permanently changes the profile. The Thunderwolf Cavalry entry also lists the models as Str 5 T 5, not Str 4(5).

First half, totally correct.

Second Half a moot point, Thunderwolf Cavalry do not have thunderwolf mounts. They are Cavalry models with the listed profiles, unmodified by any means.

While their profiles do "equate" to that of Standard Marines with all the Thunderwolf profile additions, they are not in fact "equipped" with the Thunderwolf mount upgrade.

Black Blow Fly: for a More Direct Permanent characteristic modification comparison look to the bike, and it's added Protection rule. It only makes the Modes Modified toughness(Base Toughness), I.E. a Marine T5(4), because the Rule specifically tells you it does.

On the other hand Relic Blades and Frost Blades/axes modify the Models Str, but then both of them state you get the Str Bonus when using those weapons in Close combat so the model is still considered Base Str at all times, other than attacks in CC. So Characteristic tests are made at Base Str(making a Standard marine a Str 4(6) with a relic Blade and A Wolf Str 4(5) with a Frost Blade/axe)

KK - actually the bike rules are redundant in that respect - the rules for ID *tell* you that any modifiers to toughness are ignored.

This is why the model is, strictly, S4(5) as the RAW does not explicitly state it is S5. Same as it was T4(5) until the FAQ because that is what the rules say - and you cannot argue that adding +1 to a characteristic isnt a modifier because, well, the rulebook states it is....

Nos; are you saying that with the FAQ telling us that the thunderwolf stat bonuses are still modifiers even though the individual toughness modifier from that same line, same sentence is not?

"A Character with a thunderwolf mount has the unit type of cavalry, adds +1 strength, +1 toughness, and +1 attack to its Profile,"

All in the same line, therefore if one is not a modifier, then none of them are.