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Intro:

I have a number of squads and models in my collection that are not permitted by the current army lists (as I'm sure most people do). While some of these models are my own deliberate deviations. Many have simply been excluded by newer and increasingly narrower versions of the army lists (don't worry this isn't a rant).

A few examples are: marine assault squads with power weapons and bike squads and land speeder crew with assault weapons. These used to be perfectly legal... now they aren't.

Another slightly more awkward example is my Blood Angels Captain... He is an unmodified GW model of a Captain in what is clearly Artificer armour. He is accompanied by? sanguinary guard in the exact same looking armour... Yet for some reason, while the army list insists that sanguinary guard have artificer armour, it does not permit it for the captain... despite nearly all the Mighty Hero level BA special characters being equipped with it.

The disparity between models and army lists is obviously problematic. If you want to play a WYSIWYG game then your only option is to ask your opponents permission to 'bend' the rules. Otherwise you have to play 'counts as' which of course conflicts with WYSIWYG and might cause it's own problems, or might not even be allowed at all.

My questions:

How much does this stuff really matter? How many of you would be happy to let stuff like this slide in your games? Do you stick closely to the rules yourself? Would you force your opponent to play 'counts as' or is WYSIWYG more important to you than strict adherence to the army lists? Do you know or have you played someone who would not allow any deviation whatsoever?

In GW stores... Are in-store games more strict? Will games workshop really not allow me to use the assault squad with power weapons (that they sold me). Have you ever used non-GW models in a GW store... did the staff mind? did they tell you they weren't allowed? did they even know they weren't GW?

In proper tournaments would non army list or 'counts as' models be allowed? Is the only option to break off the arms and weapons and make the models game legal? and IMO less interesting.

Do you have the right to fight your case? despite whatever the rules, army list, and 'your opponent' says... do you think you have the right to tell opponents and tournament organisers that they are being petty and pedantic for disallowing the forsaken land speeder pilot with a chainsword?

And lastly... can you just get away with this stuff without asking? How many Ork players would be familiar enough with the BA codex to know that a Captain can't have artificer armour? (especially when displayed on the model). How many players and tournament organisers are familiar enough with all the army lists to spot every little deviation. Do people really care about this stuff enough to scrutinise every tiny detail of your army? Or is it just generally accepted that if it seems realistic and not just deliberate cheapness (E.g. if it isn't a wolf guard terminator with a CML and an assault cannon, riding a bike) then it's okay to have, or won't be questioned... How are you even meant to know you're opponent's army is legal?

I would insist we play counts-as current rules models, and if the army was extreme, and I had to remember a bunch of proxies for you, I probably wouldn't willingly play you again.

as for tournaments, yea, your army wouldn't fly.

As for trying to get away with things without asking... we have a word for that. Cheating.

I pretty much agree.

it's not fair to simply give someone something he can't have. I can understand the anger with giving a captain art. armour.

I feel your pain, but for me, it's why the hell is PK stuck in power armour?

And why do my rhinos cost fifteen points more, and only one person can fire out of its fire point?

Play with whatever houserules you want... but remember they're houserules, your opponent and you agree upon them.

Honersstodnt wrote:As for trying to get away with things without asking... we have a word for that. Cheating.

Now hold up just a second! No one said anything about cheating. Considering the Captain could legitimately have Terminator Armour which is better that Artificer Armour. The idea is not really to get an unfair advantage over your opponent, It's just to allow for models that don't fit the lists 100%. Just because a model isn't in the army lists doesn't mean it is unfair. It might even place you at a disadvantage. For example: I have an old marine model who has a Las pistol... no advantage gained really over having a bolt pistol, it's just what he has, but he's not allowed it in the lists any more.

I don't want to get caught up in just talking about the armour, but BA Captains definitely can have Artificer Armour. Tycho has it, Dante has it, even the relatively low ranked Sanguinary Guard have it. It's featured on the generic BA Captain model, it's seen in BA artwork... and in previous editions the Captain would certainly have been allowed to take it as a wargear card (had it existed then) if not directly from the army list. This is not a terminator with a jump pack... this is a popular and official model that there are no longer adequate rules for.

I understand that it's only fair to check with your opponents if you are using units of your own creation. But some stuff was created by GW, according to their official rules, which they have since left out of their army lists. Assault squads used to come with power weapons in the box, as did land speeders... that was the whole idea. Why should models that I've spent hours and hours assembling and painting suddenly be relegated to 'house rules only' games?

the problem is, when you start using things that aren't in the codex without asking for permission, unintended problems can occur.

For example, if I was playing against a marine player, and he had an assault squad, I might assault it with my attack bike squadron to hold it up for a turn. I would assume that there is a sergeant with a power sword, but only ONE power sword, because thats what the codex specifies.

Then, if you come out and say after the fact, that the entire squad has power weapons, thats most definitely cheating, because A) its against the rules, an B) you didn't tell me before hand.

Now, if you want to use an old edition of the codex, I wouldn't have a problem with that for free play. You cannot, however, cherry pick from a new codex what you want to use old rules / models for. If you want to play a game with your second edition blood angels army, i'll make every attempt to play it with you, so long as you have a copy of the codex, and I can see it before we start.

Melissia wrote:And why do my rhinos cost fifteen points more, and only one person can fire out of its fire point?

Play with whatever houserules you want... but remember they're houserules, your opponent and you agree upon them.

Well that is really why I made this topic, I wanted to gauge how common 'house rules' are. Is house rules something that most people only play behind locked doors, after dark, with close family members least they be caught. Or is bending the rules actually the norm with most players.

I would like to get back into gaming, and I want to know... am I going to continually be having problems with the non list elements of my army... Or will I generally be fine unless I meet a particularly fussy opponent?

SmackCakes wrote:

Honersstodnt wrote:As for trying to get away with things without asking... we have a word for that. Cheating.

Now hold up just a second! No one said anything about cheating.

No, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't come u. You had to know it would.

I would have you pay for it if you wanted that artificer armor, and it'd be more points than you'd pay for it if you played the standard SM codex.

yea, most players, at least in the 5 places i've played (Somerville NJ, Binghamton NY, Rochester NY, Buffalo NY, Syracuse NY) follow the rules as written by GW, and defer to INAT in cases of dispute.

I refuse to use the INAT FAQ. Friggin' piece of trash. "I don't like this part, so I'm gonna change it dramatically and mark it as a clarification instead of a change!"

yes, because its much better if we have no unified rules for the game at all.

THAT will foster a competitive environment in this country for the game, certainly!

Why don't we go back to flinging poo at each other, while we are at it?!?!

Honersstodnt wrote:Now, if you want to use an old edition of the codex, I wouldn't have a problem with that for free play. You cannot, however, cherry pick from a new codex what you want to use old rules / models for. If you want to play a game with your second edition blood angels army, i'll make every attempt to play it with you, so long as you have a copy of the codex, and I can see it before we start.

I most certainly do have a copy however Sanguinary guard aren't in it :( and funnily enough neither is Artificer armour. Dante et all just had regular power armour... I'm sure you would be fine with that.

But would you also be fine with bike squads and the assault squad vets (the sanguinary guard equivalent) being scoring units? Since they are listed in that section of the codex? And if not isn't that just reverse cherry picking?

as long as your codex says it, and we both agree to use your older edition codex, its all good. The ONLY exception would be if its a scoring vehicle, because the 5th edition rulebook says no vehicles can ever score.

Honersstodnt wrote:yes, because its much better if we have no unified rules for the game at all.

THAT will foster a competitive environment in this country for the game, certainly!

Why don't we go back to flinging poo at each other, while we are at it?!?!

I'm fine with unified rules. INAT is NOT that, it is someone's houserules that they're trying to force on other people. I don't care to go any further in this discussion as it's rather off-topic.

SmackCakes wrote:

Melissia wrote:And why do my rhinos cost fifteen points more, and only one person can fire out of its fire point?

Play with whatever houserules you want... but remember they're houserules, your opponent and you agree upon them.

Well that is really why I made this topic, I wanted to gauge how common 'house rules' are. Is house rules something that most people only play behind locked doors, after dark, with close family members least they be caught. Or is bending the rules actually the norm with most players.

I would like to get back into gaming, and I want to know... am I going to continually be having problems with the non list elements of my army... Or will I generally be fine unless I meet a particularly fussy opponent?

Well, the easiest way to avoid fussy opponents is this.

Get your friends into it.

When they're starting, they won't care, and hell, when they're experienced, they won't care. Play with your friends until you splurge on more models when you get back into it... (which believe me, you will) Get a table and terrain for your house, and an AOBR or something, get your friends to play demo games, and lure them in.

Then, use the new models at a LGS.

Or just use newer models until you get to know the guys at your LGS (which I am assuming you don't yet)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't worry, Melissia always rants about how her codex is under powered, and how she deserves more. She also thinks that if you deny her the right to use the rules for imperial armor excorcists, that you are TFG and WAAC...

SmackCakes wrote:Intro:

And lastly... can you just get away with this stuff without asking? How many Ork players would be familiar enough with the BA codex to know that a Captain can't have artificer armour? (especially when displayed on the model). How many players and tournament organisers are familiar enough with all the army lists to spot every little deviation. Do people really care about this stuff enough to scrutinise every tiny detail of your army? Or is it just generally accepted that if it seems realistic and not just deliberate cheapness (E.g. if it isn't a wolf guard terminator with a CML and an assault cannon, riding a bike) then it's okay to have, or won't be questioned... How are you even meant to know you're opponent's army is legal?

This is really reprehensible behavior. You plan to use things that aren't in your codex, that you didn't pay for, and hope that your opponent doesn't notice it? How is that not cheating? And you go on to say that you think that you can slip this by a tournament organizer- so you plan to, or already have, done this in a competitive environment. Are you familiar with TFG?

Usually, when I throw down in a game of little plastic army men, I expect my opponent to follow the rules. When I discover that he hasn't, not by accident or misunderstanding but with malice aforethought, I avoid that player in the future, and advise everyone else to do the same. A game takes two players. I would hope that you value having someone to play with more than your outdated models and your 'adherence' to the WYSIWIG rule. Might I suggest that you invest some of the conversion skills you've no doubt picked up in your long career of gaming and modify your models to meet the current codex standard? Swap a bolt pistol in for that lasgun, remove those power weapons, and declare that captain's 'artificer' armor just a knock off of the Sanguinary Priests righteous set of armor. Otherwise, you might as well start playing with Vortex grenades and sustained fire dice, and hope your opponent doesn't know you haven't had them for over a decade.

I don't think he intends to do any cheating. I believe it's a hypothetical: what would another player do? scenario.

Basically, if you played me or pretty much anyone at my flgs (not everyone mind you) I wouldn't care if you proxied the older model captain as a standard 5th edition captain using ALL 5th edition rules OR used all 2nd edition codex rules. In fact it would be pretty sweet to see such an old model.

But picking and choosing from codices, now that's a problem. For example: My Dark Angels' storm shields are a 4++ in close combat only rather than a 3++ all the time. Do I comlpain and use the newer 3++? Nope, I grin and take it. Do I like it? Not at all. Point being, following one unified set of rules, even in a friendly game, is a much better thing to do than mixing and matching. And please, if you are using proxies or older units to count as something else, tell your opponent what things are! Oh and be sure to let them know if you are using an older codex too

Of coruse if you can get your opponent to agree on it, this land raider could be a rhino. Or pretty much anything wacky could happen! Just ask your opponent but be prepared for them to say "no" and have a back-up just in case.

SmackCakes wrote:Intro:

I have a number of squads and models in my collection that are not permitted by the current army lists (as I'm sure most people do). While some of these models are my own deliberate deviations. Many have simply been excluded by newer and increasingly narrower versions of the army lists (don't worry this isn't a rant).

A few examples are: marine assault squads with power weapons and bike squads and land speeder crew with assault weapons. These used to be perfectly legal... now they aren't.

Another slightly more awkward example is my Blood Angels Captain... He is an unmodified GW model of a Captain in what is clearly Artificer armour. He is accompanied by? sanguinary guard in the exact same looking armour... Yet for some reason, while the army list insists that sanguinary guard have artificer armour, it does not permit it for the captain... despite nearly all the Mighty Hero level BA special characters being equipped with it.

The disparity between models and army lists is obviously problematic. If you want to play a WYSIWYG game then your only option is to ask your opponents permission to 'bend' the rules. Otherwise you have to play 'counts as' which of course conflicts with WYSIWYG and might cause it's own problems, or might not even be allowed at all.

My questions:

How much does this stuff really matter? How many of you would be happy to let stuff like this slide in your games? Do you stick closely to the rules yourself? Would you force your opponent to play 'counts as' or is WYSIWYG more important to you than strict adherence to the army lists? Do you know or have you played someone who would not allow any deviation whatsoever?

In GW stores... Are in-store games more strict? Will games workshop really not allow me to use the assault squad with power weapons (that they sold me). Have you ever used non-GW models in a GW store... did the staff mind? did they tell you they weren't allowed? did they even know they weren't GW?

In proper tournaments would non army list or 'counts as' models be allowed? Is the only option to break off the arms and weapons and make the models game legal? and IMO less interesting.

Do you have the right to fight your case? despite whatever the rules, army list, and 'your opponent' says... do you think you have the right to tell opponents and tournament organisers that they are being petty and pedantic for disallowing the forsaken land speeder pilot with a chainsword?

And lastly... can you just get away with this stuff without asking? How many Ork players would be familiar enough with the BA codex to know that a Captain can't have artificer armour? (especially when displayed on the model). How many players and tournament organisers are familiar enough with all the army lists to spot every little deviation. Do people really care about this stuff enough to scrutinise every tiny detail of your army? Or is it just generally accepted that if it seems realistic and not just deliberate cheapness (E.g. if it isn't a wolf guard terminator with a CML and an assault cannon, riding a bike) then it's okay to have, or won't be questioned... How are you even meant to know you're opponent's army is legal?

Don't get caught up in a lot of the BS being put out about cheating blah blah. You have old minis. repaint as can and use them as counts as otherwise in friendly games. Just make sure the same item counts for the same thing across the list and your opponent is fully aware.

Just play them as counts as in friendly games. There's no standard for artificer armor of the lack of it. Power weapons are just swords - repaint them in normal metallics, etc. Old minis are generally quite serviceable in V5.

Put me firmly in the camp of if you 'get away' with doing something because someone else doesn't know your codex well enough to call you on it, you're a dirty, worthless cheater.

Not saying that's you, but if you were to do that, that's what you'd be. Doesn't matter what logic you use, if you're taking something that isn't as powerful as what the unit *could* take, or what. If you're representing it as codex rules and not following codex rules without asking and talking about it, you're cheating, period.

What Frazzled said is the best idea, just count it as a normal captain. There's really no precedent for artificer armor other than that it's old and fancy right? That can just be a captain in fancy armor! I would personally love to see an old model like that in person.

Gitzbitah wrote:This is really reprehensible behavior. You plan to use things that aren't in your codex, that you didn't pay for, and hope that your opponent doesn't notice it? How is that not cheating? And you go on to say that you think that you can slip this by a tournament organizer- so you plan to, or already have, done this in a competitive environment. Are you familiar with TFG?

I would never add something to my army without paying for it... Though it's difficult to ascertain how much something costs if it has been completely omitted from the army lists.

I also didn't say this was something I was planning to do. But it seems that unless GW expects you to own every codex book, which I'm sure they don't (at least not openly)... (or realistically judging from the prices) It would seem obvious that people will come up against armies that they do not know the rules for (at least not very well). Surely this must happen all the time for everyone who doesn't own every codex book (which is probably most people).

If I meet someone who plays chaos, I am not going to know all the rules and prices for their army. If their army is 10 times bigger than mine, and all the infantry have lascannons... Then I know they are cheating. If their army looks more or less normal and balanced then I probably wouldn't care to examine their list too closely (even if they were 'cheating'). Though I'm very easy going about games... I don't believe 40k can be a truly competitive game when everything from movement to LOS has to be agreed on. When I play I usually play like it's an RPG... for example I played a game where one of my guys was shot while on a narrow bridge, so I took a roll to see if he fell off the bridge into this toxic looking stuff, because that seemed like something that could happen, I didn't have to have to, it's not in the rules, it wasn't a house rule, and it didn't help me win. It was just something we thought of... and then rolled to see if it happened... It's actually the only thing I remember about that game because it was funny.

I don't see how 40k can be played competitively because I don't see how it can be played with a hostile partner. If I really wanted to play 40k as WAAC then I would call into question everything my opponent did, from how they measure movement to LOS, I would insist I had a LOS when I didn't, I would insist that they didn't have LOS when they did. I would always claim to be in cover and I would make my opponent 'roll off' against me at every opportunity and let the dice decide even when i was clearly wrong (I would insist I wasn't). While I might get some amusement from just seeing how much I could annoy my opponent, I don't think it would be a very good game. And If my opponent hadn't already packed up their stuff and gone home after the first turn I'm sure they would end up doing the same thing back to me.

That is how I see 40k being competitively. So I don't 'play to win' I play for fun and to see my models on the table. And in that situation I would want the rules to reflect the models as much as possible. But I don't know that other people feel the same way. Perhaps some people do believe they can play 40k competitively.

As for converting the models... I think armies look better with a bit of variety regarding characters and weapons. Assult weapons always look awesome. I don't really want to convert already finished units to 'just chainswords' in order to reflect increasingly vanilla army lists.

You might like Necromunda more...

Outside of a tournament, unless you check their lists, you cannot know how much costs what. Simple matter, so play with people you know what screw you over on purpose.

Trust me, as you play against people more and more, you will get a better understanding of what can take what, and if something is fishy with points costs.

What Frazzled says is the truth. People hide behind incredulousness on the internet and throw "cheating" around, but that's just the internet. I'm surprized the WYSIWYG fascists haven't found this thread yet. Just count them as whatever your codex says the unit has. If there's an eyebrow raised, tell them it's a 15 year old model. It's like the GD female commissar that has the laspistol. I've never seen anyone who's had a problem with one of those. If you want to use the old codex, that's fine also. Just make sure your opponent knows it. Also, unless the armor has a giant gold "2+" on one of the shoulderpads, then it's only artificer armor if you say it is.

SmackCakes wrote:Intro:

I have a number of squads and models in my collection that are not permitted by the current army lists (as I'm sure most people do). While some of these models are my own deliberate deviations. Many have simply been excluded by newer and increasingly narrower versions of the army lists (don't worry this isn't a rant).

A few examples are: marine assault squads with power weapons and bike squads and land speeder crew with assault weapons. These used to be perfectly legal... now they aren't.

Another slightly more awkward example is my Blood Angels Captain... He is an unmodified GW model of a Captain in what is clearly Artificer armour. He is accompanied by? sanguinary guard in the exact same looking armour... Yet for some reason, while the army list insists that sanguinary guard have artificer armour, it does not permit it for the captain... despite nearly all the Mighty Hero level BA special characters being equipped with it.

There's a guy at my FLGS who is in a similar boat. he has a bunch of 2nd ed. models and some of them are shelved but others have a new lease on life based on new codex options. In the above examples your assault squad would have to be vanguard and your bikers... well if you weren't playing BA i would say make them a biker command squad. In friendly games that may still work. Just ask your opponent before hand and if he's okay with it and pay the points from C:SM and call it good. As for your land speeder crew w/ assault weapons... well sucks to be you. That landspeeder is just a normal speeder now.
As for the cap in artificer armor I feel your pain. As a fellow BA player I feel your pain. I don't understand why GW feels it needs to punish you further for not taking their awesome special characters. In game with me I would let you take it for 15 pts. just like vanilla marines but I'm a little biased. It seems to me that you're passing up a SC with artificer armor why not be able to give it to the alternate lack luster joe schmoe character.

I think one rule of thumb is to play a few games with a new group/ person with normal codex supported rules before you try to do house rules. Once they see you're not the type who tries to take advantage and plays a fair game they'll be more likely to let you flub the rules a little.

First of all, I have no problem with "counts as." I personally run my own armies in a very strict WYSIWYG sense... I actually stress out when I forget to glue frag grenades on my Marines. But that's just me. I will accept "counts as" units... but here's the problem. When everything you've got on the table counts as something other than what it is, it gets confusing. Then I have to remember what everything is, and that's an enormous pain in the ass. For example, there's a guy who plays at my FLGS with me and a few others who 1) bought the AoBR set, 2) painted them as Blood Ravens, 3) got bored with Blood ravens, and now runs them as Thousand Suns.

So his tac marines and dev squad with their lascannons, rocket launchers and flamers get lumped together and I have to remember wargear they don't have and stats they don't have... and I have to reconcile the fact that what are very clearly Blood Ravens are actually Thousand Sons. I even have to remember that his AoBR captain is actually a Sorcerer and his Sergeants with power fists are actually Aspiring Sorcerers. It gets annoying, and I constantly give him hell for it.

There's a limit to how much disbelief your opponent is willing to suspend. If you have a lot of old models and you want to run them as V5 models, that's fine, but keep it within reason. And the last thing you want to do is assume that your opponent knows what's going on. Be specific before the game starts about what you have and don't have. If this person I've referred to were to, for example, whip out his Blood Raven tac marines and devastators, with all their Blood Raven tac and dev wargear, start up a game, and then all of a sudden tell me, "Oh, by the way... these are Thousand Suns."

Thanks, prick. That would have been wonderful to know in advance.

To make it worse, he doesn't own the CSM codex, so he doesn't know it well at all. There's a lot of guesswork on his part as well as ours.

Don't be like that. Nobody wants to play with a guy like that.

In conclusion, declare what everything is and make sure we have a codex to read so we know what your troops are capable of... and what they're not. And do it all within reason.

I have no problem using the models as count as. I have a huge problem with you adding stuff to your codex. We have a set of rules that we agree to play by. When you change the rules with out telling the other person, you are cheating. Even if you do not get an advantage, you are cheating.

To another point, Dante has 2+ Armour, as well as Tycho. Dante is the leader of the whole Chapter, and Tycho was his hand selected successor. Neither is a normal Chaptain. And Sang Guard were the personal body guards to the Primarch. They are far from Joe Blow Tact guys.

Just because something was in one addition does not mean it should be in another addition. Sorry you bought models that can not be used as is. I have metal scouts with Autocannons that I can never use again.

The models are fine. You just need to use a current codex and ALL of the rules therein. No mixing and matching from different codexes. I love seeing old models on the table, just be sure to tell me what they count as under the current rules!

SmackCakes wrote:

Gitzbitah wrote:This is really reprehensible behavior. You plan to use things that aren't in your codex, that you didn't pay for, and hope that your opponent doesn't notice it? How is that not cheating? And you go on to say that you think that you can slip this by a tournament organizer- so you plan to, or already have, done this in a competitive environment. Are you familiar with TFG?

I would never add something to my army without paying for it... Though it's difficult to ascertain how much something costs if it has been completely omitted from the army lists.

I also didn't say this was something I was planning to do. But it seems that unless GW expects you to own every codex book, which I'm sure they don't (at least not openly)... (or realistically judging from the prices) It would seem obvious that people will come up against armies that they do not know the rules for (at least not very well). Surely this must happen all the time for everyone who doesn't own every codex book (which is probably most people).

If I meet someone who plays chaos, I am not going to know all the rules and prices for their army. If their army is 10 times bigger than mine, and all the infantry have lascannons... Then I know they are cheating. If their army looks more or less normal and balanced then I probably wouldn't care to examine their list too closely (even if they were 'cheating'). Though I'm very easy going about games... I don't believe 40k can be a truly competitive game when everything from movement to LOS has to be agreed on. When I play I usually play like it's an RPG... for example I played a game where one of my guys was shot while on a narrow bridge, so I took a roll to see if he fell off the bridge into this toxic looking stuff, because that seemed like something that could happen, I didn't have to have to, it's not in the rules, it wasn't a house rule, and it didn't help me win. It was just something we thought of... and then rolled to see if it happened... It's actually the only thing I remember about that game because it was funny.

I don't see how 40k can be played competitively because I don't see how it can be played with a hostile partner. If I really wanted to play 40k as WAAC then I would call into question everything my opponent did, from how they measure movement to LOS, I would insist I had a LOS when I didn't, I would insist that they didn't have LOS when they did. I would always claim to be in cover and I would make my opponent 'roll off' against me at every opportunity and let the dice decide even when i was clearly wrong (I would insist I wasn't). While I might get some amusement from just seeing how much I could annoy my opponent, I don't think it would be a very good game. And If my opponent hadn't already packed up their stuff and gone home after the first turn I'm sure they would end up doing the same thing back to me.

That is how I see 40k being competitively. So I don't 'play to win' I play for fun and to see my models on the table. And in that situation I would want the rules to reflect the models as much as possible. But I don't know that other people feel the same way. Perhaps some people do believe they can play 40k competitively.

As for converting the models... I think armies look better with a bit of variety regarding characters and weapons. Assult weapons always look awesome. I don't really want to convert already finished units to 'just chainswords' in order to reflect increasingly vanilla army lists.

In that case, I apologize. What you wrote in your initial post implied something far more sinister than your actual intent.

jbunny wrote:

To another point, Dante has 2+ Armour, as well as Tycho. Dante is the leader of the whole Chapter, and Tycho was his hand selected successor. Neither is a normal Captain. And Sang Guard were the personal body guards to the Primarch. They are far from Joe Blow Tact guys.

I'm assuming this is in response to my post so I'll respond by saying that:
1: Sang Guard, though elite, are glorified bullet catchers and their survival is obviously less important than a man who is responsible for all battlefield operations for an entire company. Why would captains have inferior armor?
2: Tycho is dead and I think it's a fair assumption they would have recovered his armor.
3: if every other chapter's captains can do it why can't they?

Melissia wrote:I refuse to use the INAT FAQ. Friggin' piece of trash. "I don't like this part, so I'm gonna change it dramatically and mark it as a clarification instead of a change!"

Quoted for emphasis. The INAT FAQ is utter garbage, and outright CHANGES enough rules that it counts as a collection of house rules more than anything else.

To the OP: In tournaments, none of that stuff will fly. Everything has to be WYSIWYG, and you can only use the most current rules as specified by the tournament organizer. In "friendly" games, technically you can use whatever the hell you want as long as the opponent agrees. However, I think you will find many people bring the tournament mindset to regular games as well. The occasional proxy or WYSIWYG incongruity would slide, but it's doubtful many people would want to try to keep track of all your proxies and counts-as game after game after game. That, or given your non-standard army, they will declare the game to be Apocalypse, drop down a few titans, and stomp your face in.