vulnerable battlewagons

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**QuietOrkmi**

Is it just me or does the battlewagon have a small front arc.

My opponent, pointed out getting side armor from what I thought.

llll_____
ll/aaaaa\
l/bbbbbb\
|cccccccc|
|cccccccc|
|cccccccc|
|cccccccc|
|cccccccc|

He pointed out that because arcs are measured from the back of the vehicle, the front arc is still very small (just the tiny flat part). Sadly this turns my battlewagon into a 12/12/10 open topped vehicle.

Is there any way I could rectify this issue through modeling? I have tried a reinforced Ram but my opponent still claimed hitting side armor by tracing LOS to the diagonal lines.

**Honersstodnt**

the battlewagon is very cheap, at 90 points base for it. I'd say that the small front arc is an intended weakness put in by GW, forcing you to make a tougher decision about where your front facing is.

Trying to change this through modeling is modeling for advantage, and is not allowed.

**Gwar!**

Yes, the front arc is small. It's meant to be.

**QuietOrkmi**

My problem is that is so small that I could line them up side by side and you can still hit side armor...

**Gwar!**

QuietOrkmi wrote:My problem is that is so small that I could line them up side by side and you can still hit side armor...

Not if you are in the front arc.

Hint: Point the wagon at the heavy gunz

**phillosmaster**

ram him unmercifully with your deffrollers. Maybe then he won't be so keen on standing infront of you wagon line.

**Honersstodnt**

Now i'm picturing GWAR as a giant warboss...

"POINT DA FRONT END AT DA SHOOTY BITS, YA NOB!"

**Captain Solon**

honerss. no... just no.

**Honersstodnt**

your mouth says no no...

your eyes say yes yes....

**QuietOrkmi**

The problem is that they can 9/10 draw LOS to the diagonal end, thus can request side armor.

**Gwar!**

QuietOrkmi wrote:The problem is that they can 9/10 draw LOS to the diagonal end, thus can request side armor.

That's not how the rule works... You shoot at the facing you are in. If you are in the Front Arc, you shoot at it, even if you have LOS to the side as well.

If you are in the front and have los to ONLY the Side, then you can shoot the side, and ONLY then.

**phillosmaster**

That's why people line up their battlewagons. The enemy will have to sweep around to your extreme flank to target side armor, and you can put something else out here to protect your flank (terrain, trucks, large piles of grots ...).

**moltenchicken**

I think that the picture on the bottom of page 60 in the brb is quite simple to follow. draw an imaginary X through your battlewagon and determine what quadrant your oponents models are in. Whatever quad has the most models means that is the armor value.

**Gwar!**

moltenchicken wrote:I think that the picture on the bottom of page 60 in the brb is quite simple to follow. draw an imaginary X through your battlewagon and determine what quadrant your oponents models are in. Whatever quad has the most models means that is the armor value.

No, it doesn't.

Whatever models are in the front arc fire at the front arc, whoever is in the side arc fire at the side.

and furthermore.. I will be polite to other forum members

**QuietOrkmi**

Gwar! wrote:
QuietOrkmi wrote:The problem is that they can 9/10 draw LOS to the diagonal end, thus can request side armor.
That's not how the rule works... You shoot at the facing you are in. If you are in the Front Arc, you shoot at it, even if you have LOS to the side as well.

If you are in the front and have los to ONLY the Side, then you can shoot the side, and ONLY then.

Can I get a direct quote from the BRB, otherwise my argument for getting my front armor will not be valid.

**Gwar!**

QuietOrkmi wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
QuietOrkmi wrote:The problem is that they can 9/10 draw LOS to the diagonal end, thus can request side armor.
That's not how the rule works... You shoot at the facing you are in. If you are in the Front Arc, you shoot at it, even if you have LOS to the side as well.

If you are in the front and have los to ONLY the Side, then you can shoot the side, and ONLY then.
Can I get a direct quote from the BRB, otherwise my argument for getting my front armor will not be valid.

It's on page 60 of the BRB.

**Dracos**

Just look at p.60. Its clearly delineated there.

edit: Ninja'd by 6 seconds!

**Inquisitor_Syphonious**

That is why landraider/battlewagon conversions annoy the heck out of me, mega modeling for advantage.

Remember, if you are shooting at an arc, and cannot see that side of the vehicle, but you can see the vehicle sometimes, it gets a 3+ cover save...

**Honersstodnt**

well, convert the land raider all you want. I will give you rear armor on it from every angle

**QuietOrkmi**

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Remember, if you are shooting at an arc, and cannot see that side of the vehicle, but you can see the vehicle sometimes, it gets a 3+ cover save...

Once more quotes directly from the BRB help more. My opponent will only give me a 4+ cover save, there are several times that in his position, I would not make the shot as a good sport. For example: He only sees the back edge of it, another time he saw a smoke stack that hangs out from the rear (clearly not apart of the hull) and tried to just hand me a 4+ cover save.

Edit: Found it on Page 61... looks like that is yet another page I need to bookmark in my rulebook...

I do not want to be that F'n Guy but every day I play with people like him with my orks, I turn into that F'n Guy to protect myself from rules abuse...

**Gwar!**

QuietOrkmi wrote:
Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Remember, if you are shooting at an arc, and cannot see that side of the vehicle, but you can see the vehicle sometimes, it gets a 3+ cover save...

Once more quotes directly from the BRB help more. My opponent will only give me a 4+ cover save, there are several times that in his position, I would not make the shot as a good sport. For example: He only sees the back edge of it, another time he saw a smoke stack that hangs out from the rear (clearly not apart of the hull) and tried to just hand me a 4+ cover save.

I do not want to be that F'n Guy but every day I play with people like him with my orks, I turn into that F'n Guy to protect myself from rules abuse...

Why not read the rulebook?

If your opponent is refusing to play by the rules there isn't anything we can do.

**QuietOrkmi**

Just a quick question, on page 60, there is a picture of a LR with 2 lines going through it diagonally. This works out because the LR is square shape.

The Battlewagon is in the shape of a pencil, so where do measure the "corners"? I am currently thinking the corner most tires to the rear tires as the front.

**nosferatu1001**

Well given its a rectangle, the corners are in the normal place....

**Alienfood**

I would use these arcs, but I may be wrong

I wouldn't count the deffrolla as part of the hull, and hence not part when making the arcs.

**KingCracker**

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:That is why landraider/battlewagon conversions annoy the heck out of me, mega modeling for advantage.

Remember, if you are shooting at an arc, and cannot see that side of the vehicle, but you can see the vehicle sometimes, it gets a 3+ cover save...

Well not necessarily. Remember that for a LONG time, Orks didnt have a battlewagon model. So naturally the first thing that comes to mind is the LR. But since they now have BW, Id agree that people building them now, are trapped in that modeling for advantage thing. Because they cost the same dont they? So what reason are you building a LR/battlewagon now?

**dietrich**

I built several battlewagons out of landraiders about 8 years ago. Also, if someone is playing either as Death Skull or Blood Axe army, having a looted Raider that counts-as a Battlewagon would be fluffy.

**Kommissar Kel**

As to the diagonals thing; they are the sides from the side of the model and the front from the front.

That is to say on a top down view your Facing Arcs are going to go through the middle of the diagonal panels, as if they were not there and the side/front met at right angles.

In this way, when you are looking at the model straight on the front facing is across the whole front of the model, and in a direct Side view the entire side of the model(from edge to back edge) is the side of the model.

If your friend refuses to use the rules and try to shoot the Side armor when clearly in front because he says he can see the Diagonal "edges" and wont count them as front; then when he is in the side arc force him to shoot at the Front AV, as again he can see the diagonals, and by his reasoning they are not the Sides either

**Sarigar**

That, or line up 3 next to each other and put a Big Mek w/ KFF in the center BW. Now, you've got a 3 BW wide wall moving towards your opponent that is more difficult to get those side shots.

**QuietOrkmi**

Except that he will claim those diagonal parts as side armor... which is visible even from the front unless the model is within a 2"...

I almost want to eliminate those diagonal parts by filling them in with scrap, that way I am a box [] instead of a ∆.

**ChrisCP**

Well if you are not counting the Rolla as hull... draw this box as per the rules

Or another way with the rolla in