Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

OK, I noticed some time ago a giant flaw in the game mechanics when assaulting vehicles.

If there is another post about this, sorry, I couldn't find one.


I have noticed that there is no AP value listed for close combat weapons. Power weapons ignore armour saves, I know that, but against Vehicles, are they AP1 or AP2? that could make a HUGE difference. I noticed this and it hasnt stopped pissing me off at all. What does GW expect us to do?

Does anyone know if this has been answered by GW or something? What do we do in tournaments? anyone that goes to tourntaments, are there generally house rules that state what is AP1 and what is AP2?

Epic on GWs part...

There is NO AP in Assault. Epic definitely on someone's part....

In close combat you use the figure's strength to determine penetration. page 63 BRB.

There isn't AP value in assault but if something ignores armour saves that is different from having an AP value.

Power weapons do not have an AP.

This is not the same as AP -

In short, Power Weapons have no special rules vs vehicles.

Gwar! wrote:Power weapons do not have an AP.

This is not the same as AP -

In short, Power Weapons have no special rules vs vehicles.

except eviserators, Thunder Hammers, and Chainfists; oh and Fuegan's fire axe(although it is not technically a Power weapon in it's own right, it just makes him a MC in cc)

but no normal Power Weapon does anything extra or Special to vehicles.

Just wanted to Clarify that because 3 of the Above are indeed power weapons, but have special rules regarding Vehicles.

Well, gwar was correct, a Power weapon is a 15 point piece of war gear that ignores armor saves. You listed a bunch of things other than "power weapons"

Live and learn... and then get Luvs.

kill dem stunties wrote:Well, gwar was correct, a Power weapon is a 15 point piece of war gear that ignores armor saves. You listed a bunch of things other than "power weapons"

Actually a power Sword is a 15 pt piece of wargear. A Power Weapon is a 10 or 15 pt Piece of wargear, depending on Codex. Also a Power Weapon is not Codex dependant on weapon description, it is found in the Main Rulebook. Or, at least Normal Power weapons are.

Not that it matters because in the entries for every Item I described it says either "Item X is(or Counts as) a Power Fist that...blah blah blah" and the second sentence of Power Fist is:A Power Fist is a Power Weapon, that...blah blah blah"

So they all are Power Fists, which are in turn Power weapons(albeit not normal Power weapons)

OK... I probably should have explained more. What I meant in the OP is 'What are the AP Values of close combat weapons FOR THE PURPOSES OF ASSAULTING VEHICLES (Because AP1 weapons get +1 on the Damage Chart)


E.G. lets say a terminator is using a chainfist on a Land Raider and Rolls a one and a five for armour penetration, plus 8 because of his strength, so a glancing hit. He then goes on to roll a 6 on the damage chart. If the Chainfist is AP1, the Result is 'Destroyed:Wrecked' instead of 'Damaged:Immobilised/Weapon Destroyed' Does that clairify what I was trying to say?


I was just saying, has anyone else noticed this? This can make a huge difference in the outcome of a battle.

Gwar! wrote:Power weapons do not have an AP.

This is not the same as AP -

In short, Power Weapons have no special rules vs vehicles.

Not just power weapons, all special close combat weapons. Power Swords and Fists/chainfists, yes, but also Kharn's Gorechild, ETC.

Power weapons get no special rules in assault against stuff with an armor value. there is no AP in assault, only long and complicated special rules for each weapon.

CCW are for CC and never has AP values. They may have special rules but they do not get AP. I think this is a good thing because if you have CCW at say 5+ then a good amount of horde armies would be worthless without an armour save at all. Yes a 5+ save is not great but it's a save instead of just picking up models.

Ummm....just wanted to point something out...

CC Weapons HAVE to have some sort of AP on them (and if i were to guess, Any weapon that denies armor should prolly be AP2)

REASON:Look on the Damage chart for vehicle damage. if the weapon is AP-, then guess what? you are -1 on damage modifier.

My Guess: CC Weapons have AP 0 (which allows all armor) but keeps from recieving the -1 modifier against vehicles (as it states only AP- is -1) and Any power weapon (or weapon that denies armor) is AP2 (and therefor does not recieve the +1 to vehicle damage)

am i wrong to think this?

EDIT: Although last time i checked, AP0 and AP- were the same thing....but idk.

Kyric wrote:am i wrong to think this?

In short, yes.

CCW do not have an AP. They have no AP value. They are not AP -, AP2, AP1 or anything else.

If they had an AP, then the Seismic Hammer would have just been made AP1, rather than giving it the same bonus as a special rule.

What Gwar said for the win.

Close combat weapons dfo NOT have an AP value. this is not the same, in any way shape or form, as having AP-

Gwar! wrote:

Kyric wrote:am i wrong to think this?

In short, yes.

CCW do not have an AP. They have no AP value. They are not AP -, AP2, AP1 or anything else.

If they had an AP, then the Seismic Hammer would have just been made AP1, rather than giving it the same bonus as a special rule.

Right, isnt that basically what it is doing? Making it AP1?

You have to have some sort of AP to keep from recieving -1 mod


Automatically Appended Next Post:
well, ok, i see where you are comming from. but using AP- is a bad way to put it

Kyric wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Kyric wrote:am i wrong to think this?

In short, yes.

CCW do not have an AP. They have no AP value. They are not AP -, AP2, AP1 or anything else.

If they had an AP, then the Seismic Hammer would have just been made AP1, rather than giving it the same bonus as a special rule.

Right, isnt that basically what it is doing? Making it AP1?

You have to have some sort of AP to keep from recieving -1 mod


Automatically Appended Next Post:
well, ok, i see where you are comming from. but using AP- is a bad way to put it

No, you don't need an ap of some sort. You only get the -1 mod if you have an AP value of '-'. This is not the same as no AP value.

It is the only way to put it, I don't see how it's a bad way.

Kyric wrote:Right, isnt that basically what it is doing? Making it AP1?

no, it isn't. It's giving it a special rule similar to the rules for AP1

You have to have some sort of AP to keep from recieving -1 mod

No, you do not. AP - is not the same as no AP.

For the sake of argueing and keep your minds right then CCW's have an AP of 7.

Power weapons have a AP of 7 but you do not get to take an armour save because of their rules.

Elitest Jerk wrote:For the sake of argueing and keep your minds right then CCW's have an AP of 7.

Power weapons have a AP of 7 but you do not get to take an armour save because of their rules.

No, that is not what CCW do at all.
To think this way is completely incorrect. CCW have NO AP VALUE. This is NOT the same as an AP Value of "-".

My bad ^_^ i thought one of the guys up top said that CC weps had AP-....i was like....nooo....... O,o


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i will say, Problem solved

Answer? Weapons count as not having ANY AP. (that does not mean AP-). Power Weapons Also do not have AP. The Special ruling on these weapons prevents the armor saves. not the AP.

TY Gwar! for clarifying

SlaveToDorkness wrote:There is NO AP in Assault.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:There is NO AP in Assault.

My BRB has a section on p63 labeled 'Armor penetration in close combat' for rolling armor penetration against vehicles...

Wouldn't it simplify the mechanics if CC weapons had AP values for assaulting? Save a lot on which special rules to use. Just thinking out loud here...

Normal weapons: AP -
Power whatever: AP 2
Fusion/melta/chain- whatever: AP 1

Homer

Homer S wrote:Wouldn't it simplify the mechanics if CC weapons had AP values for assaulting? Save a lot on which special rules to use. Just thinking out loud here...

Normal weapons: AP -
Power whatever: AP 2
Fusion/melta/chain- whatever: AP 1

Homer

No, because under your system normal CC weapons have a -1 damage chart penalty.

Gorkamorka wrote:

Homer S wrote:Wouldn't it simplify the mechanics if CC weapons had AP values for assaulting? Save a lot on which special rules to use. Just thinking out loud here...

Normal weapons: AP -
Power whatever: AP 2
Fusion/melta/chain- whatever: AP 1

Homer

No, because under your system normal CC weapons have a -1 damage chart penalty.

Ninja'd! >.<

Something that can tend to catch out people is, this also means that melta bombs don't get a +1 to their roll on the damage table.

Gorkamorka wrote:

Homer S wrote:Wouldn't it simplify the mechanics if CC weapons had AP values for assaulting? Save a lot on which special rules to use. Just thinking out loud here...

Normal weapons: AP -
Power whatever: AP 2
Fusion/melta/chain- whatever: AP 1

Homer

No, because under your system normal CC weapons have a -1 damage chart penalty.

Sure... poke holes! Since it would be new rules, that would be OK.

Homer

I still say to make peoples mind right.

CCW - AP7
Power - AP7 ignores armour saves.