Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Can a walker use smoke launchers and then run in the shooting phase?

No, Smoke launchers prevents the firing of any weapons, and running is instead of firing weapons.

Therefore you must be able to fire weapons to run.

By "be able to fire weapons" I do not mean have weapons available to fire, I mean be allowed to fire weapons in general.

Read BRB pg 72, right column, 6th paragraph. They MAY smoke and run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:No, Smoke launchers prevents the firing of any weapons, and running is instead of firing weapons.

Therefore you must be able to fire weapons to run.

By "be able to fire weapons" I do not mean have weapons available to fire, I mean be allowed to fire weapons in general.

This is a fallacy, you may Smoke when Shaken/Stunned or moved flat out as well. Smoke happens in the movement phase and a vehicle may not fire after doing it, it need not be able to fire to do it though.

Thanks man nothing beats a page ref


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a follow up question can a smoked walker assault?

Yes. My Defliers often Smoke-Run-Assault. Although the Smoke is a cover save, often they rely on the protection after killing off an opponent in CC.

Although: Units need a special rule that allows them to assault after running, since a unit may not assault if it ran in the shooting phase. P. 16

True, but he said nothing about running in the follow-up. A Walker can easily Smoke then Assault.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Yes. My Defliers often Smoke-Run-Assault. Although the Smoke is a cover save, often they rely on the protection after killing off an opponent in CC.

But you did And therefore I was a bit concerned
The Defiler has Fleet special rule, which allows these actions, and maybe should have been clarified since the topic is about walkers in general.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Smoke happens in the movement phase

Not correct, if I remember correctly. It just happens after movement - you could smoke in your assault phase if you wanted to.

Uh, no you cannot. You Smoke after completing the vehicle's move...in the Movement Phase.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Uh, no you cannot. You Smoke after completing the vehicle's move...in the Movement Phase.

Rulebook says "After completing it's move." Does not say when after - the Assault phase is still after completing your move.

The rule on page 62 says after completing its move the vehicle can trigger the smoke launcher. It then goes on to say that the vehicle cannot fire any weapons in the turn it uses smoke. So it seems obvious that the smoke launcher would have to be used after movement but before the shooting phase.

I've have had people try to say that you can't use smoke when you are stunned.

In now way can you pop smoke after you win combat in H2H.

If you don't move can you pop smoke?

Can you pop smoke when you are in H2H on your turn?

You can use smoke when you're stunned - that's clear in the rulebook.

And what says you can't pop smoke after H2H? The rulebook says "after your move" and "once per game." Both of those are satisfied...

And it obviously doesn't "seem obvious" seeing as we have a disagreement.

Elitest Jerk wrote:I've have had people try to say that you can't use smoke when you are stunned.

Some codexes may not, but the rulebook version of the launchers does specify that you can use them when shaken or stunned.

If you don't move can you pop smoke?

Yes. You use them after completing your movement. If you choose not to move, you have completed your movement.

Can you pop smoke when you are in H2H on your turn?

I see nothing that would prevent it... but unless you're pretty confident of winning the assault and being unengaged following your turn, I see little point in doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

andruin wrote:And what says you can't pop smoke after H2H? The rulebook says "after your move" and "once per game." Both of those are satisfied...

Technically, yes. But I think you'll find that most players will read 'after completing its move' as 'immediately after completing its move'...

Whether or not it's technically correct, that's the more intuitive reading of that statement. Otherwise, it would more likely just say 'any time after the movement phase' rather than referring to the vehicle's movement specifically.

andruin wrote:You can use smoke when you're stunned - that's clear in the rulebook.

And what says you can't pop smoke after H2H? The rulebook says "after your move" and "once per game." Both of those are satisfied...

And it obviously doesn't "seem obvious" seeing as we have a disagreement.

Then according to your logic, I could use it during my opponent's shooting phase, since that is "after completing my move (during my turn)" and "once per game" and I am certainly not shooting in my opponent's turn.

Andruin, from now on I will just Smoke after my opponent hits my vehicle in their shooting phase.

Thanks for the tip!

Normally you can't initiate actions on an enemy's turn. And SlavetoDorkness, that wouldn't help you - the smoke wouldn't take effect until the next enemy shooting phase.

I'm not trying to exploit a rule or anything, so the sarcasm is less than helpful. I am pointing out that the rulebook only says "after movement" - not in the movement phase.

I've never popped smoke in the assault phase, but I wouldn't object to an opponent doing it. I pop all my smoke in the shooting phase, which makes the most sense to me. Would this be against your interpretation of the rules?

andruin wrote:Normally you can't initiate actions on an enemy's turn. And SlavetoDorkness, that wouldn't help you - the smoke wouldn't take effect until the next enemy shooting phase.

You can't? Where does it say that? I know that you can use psychic powers in the enemy turn, and CC abilites like hit and run IIRC...

I'm not trying to exploit a rule or anything, so the sarcasm is less than helpful. I am pointing out that the rulebook only says "after movement" - not in the movement phase.

Yes. Yes you are. If I am supposed to consolidate "after close combat", then may I consolidate whenever the hell I chose after that point? No.

Something can still be obvious if one person disagrees. People always disagree, and those people are almost always wrong.

@Alienfood

Seems like you were the only one confused.

Except consolidation doesn't say "after close combat." It says "at the end of combat," which is markedly different.

How about this - just show me in the rulebook where it says I can't pop smoke in the assault phase. I showed you where it says I can - provided my assault phase happens after my movement.

Consolidation was just an example.

Let me go get my rulebook...

andruin wrote: How about this - just show me in the rulebook where it says I can't pop smoke in the assault phase. I showed you where it says I can - provided my assault phase happens after my movement.

I could also say show me in the rulebook where it says I can't pick up one of your models and move it. The rules are based on telling you what you can do.

Page 9 says a player's turn is divided into 3 phaes, Movement, Shooting and Assault.

Page 11 says once a unit has completed its movement you pick another and move that one.

Page 62 says a vehicle can trigger smoke launchers once per game after completing its move. It also says that the vehicle cannot fire its weapons in the same turn it used smoke launchers.

If you were allowed to fire smoke launchers in the shooting or assault phase it would have said that a vehicle cannot have fired its weapons in the same turn it used smoke launchers.

Sorry if you took my last response as being sarcastic, that was not the intent I assure you.

time wizard wrote:

andruin wrote: How about this - just show me in the rulebook where it says I can't pop smoke in the assault phase. I showed you where it says I can - provided my assault phase happens after my movement.

I could also say show me in the rulebook where it says I can't pick up one of your models and move it. The rules are based on telling you what you can do.

Page 9 says a player's turn is divided into 3 phaes, Movement, Shooting and Assault.

Page 11 says once a unit has completed its movement you pick another and move that one.

Page 62 says a vehicle can trigger smoke launchers once per game after completing its move. It also says that the vehicle cannot fire its weapons in the same turn it used smoke launchers.

If you were allowed to fire smoke launchers in the shooting or assault phase it would have said that a vehicle cannot have fired its weapons in the same turn it used smoke launchers.

Sorry if you took my last response as being sarcastic, that was not the intent I assure you.

The rules say I can use smoke launchers after I move. Assault phase is still after I move. Shooting phase is still after I move. What it would have said is irrelevant - what it does say matters. That being said, clearly we have a different interpretation. Would you allow smoke to be popped in the shooting phase?

andruin wrote:

time wizard wrote:

andruin wrote: How about this - just show me in the rulebook where it says I can't pop smoke in the assault phase. I showed you where it says I can - provided my assault phase happens after my movement.

I could also say show me in the rulebook where it says I can't pick up one of your models and move it. The rules are based on telling you what you can do.

Page 9 says a player's turn is divided into 3 phaes, Movement, Shooting and Assault.

Page 11 says once a unit has completed its movement you pick another and move that one.

Page 62 says a vehicle can trigger smoke launchers once per game after completing its move. It also says that the vehicle cannot fire its weapons in the same turn it used smoke launchers.

If you were allowed to fire smoke launchers in the shooting or assault phase it would have said that a vehicle cannot have fired its weapons in the same turn it used smoke launchers.

Sorry if you took my last response as being sarcastic, that was not the intent I assure you.

The rules say I can use smoke launchers after I move. Assault phase is still after I move. Shooting phase is still after I move. What it would have said is irrelevant - what it does say matters. That being said, clearly we have a different interpretation. Would you allow smoke to be popped in the shooting phase?

And three weeks later, during the first player turn while playing someone else who went first, is also "after I move". So that's okay, too, right?

andruin wrote:The rules say I can use smoke launchers after I move. Assault phase is still after I move. Shooting phase is still after I move. What it would have said is irrelevant - what it does say matters. That being said, clearly we have a different interpretation. Would you allow smoke to be popped in the shooting phase?

Whether or not I would allow it is beside the point. The rules do not allow it.

andruin wrote:I've never popped smoke in the assault phase, but I wouldn't object to an opponent doing it.

Thats nice of you.

andruin wrote:I pop all my smoke in the shooting phase, which makes the most sense to me.

Yes that is against the rules.

I won't belabor this point any further - how exactly is it against the rules? All I've seen so far is some inferences - the argument being that after completing your move, you have to pop smoke or the rulebook would have worded it differently. My interpretation is a valid understanding of that wording - just why is it wrong? Hyperbole (i.e. well, pop smoke three weeks later or in the opponents phase) doesn't help. Please just show me why my reading of the text is incorrect and yours is the only correct reading.

Because the rulebook's movement phase rules (page 11) clearly state that once you have moved on to another unit's movement or compleetly left the phase to start shooting – incoming quote: "You may not go back and change the move already made by another unit" thus making it illegal for any unit to smoke in the shooting phase as its move has ended already and the smoke rules clearly state it must smoke before that – at the end of said movement.
The smoking after moving in the assault phase, aka assaulting, however is a whole different argument that migh even be legal by RAW.

The problem is your reading of the rule allows for those hyperbolic responses, whereas the (in my experience) more common reading (i.e., "immediately" after a unit completes its move) is far more limiting.

Under your interpretation, any of the following scenarios could be allows:

1. I wait to fire with my dreadnought until after all my other shooting has completed. If I don't kill the Valkyrie full of melta-vets that's likely to kill my dread, I pop smoke, whereas if I do kill it with other shooting, I open up on another target instead.

2. I wait until my opponent's movement phase, and see that he has dropped some melta-vets next to my landraider. I pop smoke (if your sole argument is a broad reading of "after" completing movement).

2.a Same scenario, but I fired a weapon with my dread landraider during my turn. During your turn, I won't fire a weapon... so I still pop smoke.

3. My dread is locked in HtH with 8 space marines. Knowing I'm unlikely to break the squad, I don't use my smoke in the movement phase. My dice are hot, though, and I kill two, and they run. Now I get to smoke.


All of these scenarios are removed if you take the more restrictive reading of 'after' as meaning "immediately after."

Time Wizard also points out that the BRB uses the same terminology to refer to when a unit has completed it's move. "after completing" and "completed" are almost identical in meaning, leading to the more commonly accepted view that smoke is used in the movement phase after a unit has completed (IMMEDIATELY after) its move.

Thank you - that makes sense. I was only looking for the reasoning behind what was being said not just "no you can't thats cheating." Thanks, and I believe I see your point.

So by your interpretation, the act of popping smoke must be done as part of your move? I.E. Move, Pop Smoke, then move next unit.